hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 7, 2013 11:43:24 GMT -5
::I'm not a high level employee by any means but I have to ask if these studies and surveys include benefits in these calculations. ::
No, and typically they only compare categories, such as "education". So if teacher's aides are 95% women, who make less, then you're already skewed. We're "supposed" to ignore that women want flexible schedules and other benefits like that far more often than men. The system is just working to keep women down, it has nothing to do with the fact that in many cases they are looking for things other than monetary compensation which men seem more fixated on.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on May 7, 2013 12:22:43 GMT -5
I am curious as to what people think institutional changes need to occur. The only issue I can think of is perhaps women are penalized unfairly for pregnancy leave, but even then, if you're running a business, you promote who is around and working. Are you suggesting that if someone is running a business and person A goes on maternity leave and person B is there the whole time working overtime and contributing to your business that you should promote person A because that's more "fair?" And how can you make a private business do anything like that? Are we doing to start requiring ratios of women in management? I'm just curious as to what "changes" on a macro scale need to happen in the eyes of people like Rukh. Women in general, I feel are punished by the working world for being perceived as bitchy. When a woman is hard-nosed and agressive she is often viewed as bitchy and difficult to get along with. When a man is hard-nosed and agressive he often is perceived as talented and a go getter. Women are also considered to be the primary caregiver to not only any children they may have, but also to aging relatives. As for maternity leave, if you have an employee who takes maternity leave (or parental leave if a man) but does a fantastic job all the rest of the time then I don't think they should be punished because they chose to have a child. However, in general I think that it's not all one thing or another. I do think that there is still institutional sexism, but women also need to step up to the plate and be willing to take more risks in their career. I also think if more women negogiated when accepting a new job, for example, then I think that some of the stereotypes would dispate.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 7, 2013 12:43:49 GMT -5
::When a woman is hard-nosed and agressive she is often viewed as bitchy and difficult to get along with. When a man is hard-nosed and agressive he often is perceived as talented and a go getter.::
And sometimes when men are hard nosed and aggressive they are perceived as assholes. Some of hte problem is that many women don't know how to be hard nosed and aggressive without being bitchy. It's not they are "viewed" that way, it's that they ARE that way in a lot of cases. Men have a lot more practice it seems in being aggressive but then going back to normalcy and burying hatchets.
::I don't think they should be punished because they chose to have a child. ::
But compare that to someone who does a fantastic job the rest of the time as well, but who doesn't take months off of work for personal reasons.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2013 13:03:54 GMT -5
Women are also considered to be the primary caregiver to not only any children they may have, but also to aging relatives. As for maternity leave, if you have an employee who takes maternity leave (or parental leave if a man) but does a fantastic job all the rest of the time then I don't think they should be punished because they chose to have a child.
but then you are excusing her absence while the rest of the troops carried on
this is where things get difficult....
if i have two identical candidates, but one is a new mom, and the other hasnt had any children, making the decision between them comes down to little differences
i have made those decisions over my career...and have gone both ways in my decisions.....
but now, the choice is easier due to my actual results....i lean towards the one without kids
why....because i can count on her not to have "children" issues at the worst possible times
sometimes it just has to be done NOW...and that means all hands on deck...moms have a harder time with those issues (fair or not, it is the truth)
i cant listen to the daycare problem, or the sick child problem, or anything else....i have a problem and need it fixed
this is one of the reasons men get promoted ahead of women...not saying it is fair...as a manager it has been a tough issue for me for 20 years
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 7, 2013 13:18:53 GMT -5
Ava, it may appear that way on the outside, but any man in any "sucessful" job has paid his dues. You just weren't there to see it.
I'm sure if you were to approach any male in a high powered, high earning job and ask him how he rose through the ranks, you'd get plenty of stories of long hours, tough times, and challenges overcome.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on May 7, 2013 13:18:59 GMT -5
ava, according to payscale.com, the median pay for an entry level staff accountant is just over $36K, including bonus. In general, getting your CPA certificate will get you more money. Either through a pay raise (a common practice at public accounting firms), or because it qualifies you for jobs that pay better.
The other posters here are correct. You can't just sit back and wait to be recognized and rewarded for your work. If you're not happy with what you are getting paid, fire your boss and get yourself a new job that pays better. If you're not getting the promotional opportunites you want, fire your boss and get a job that has better career opportunities.
When I graduated with a degree in accounting, I asked for the same money that my peers were getting from public accounting firms. I got it. And one of my classmates, a woman who worked in the department I would be joining, got a $3K raise because they couldn't pay me more just because I was male and asked for more. When I became disatisfied with my career oportunities and compensation level, I started searching for a new job. And selected the job with the company that had a well established upward career track for accountants. In the next eight years, I was promoted four times, relocated three times, and worked in five different finance functions or business units.
Being passive isn't going to get you where you want to be. Never forget that you have control of and define your career. So, go out and get the career you want.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 7, 2013 13:25:34 GMT -5
But women being perceived as bitchy is not an institutional problem, that's a perception problem. Rukh proposed that institutional changes need to be made. Which I interpreted to mean new laws and policies. Unfortunately, you can't legislate peoples' perceptions that women's work is worth less than men's work, or that women should be the caregivers, or that assertive women are labled as bitchy. And while I don't have the studies, I not only think that men hold those opinions of women, but women hold those opinions of other women.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on May 7, 2013 13:30:17 GMT -5
But women being perceived as bitchy is not an institutional problem, that's a perception problem. Rukh proposed that institutional changes need to be made. Which I interpreted to mean new laws and policies. Unfortunately, you can't legislate peoples' perceptions that women's work is worth less than men's work, or that women should be the caregivers, or that assertive women are labled as bitchy. And while I don't have the studies, I not only think that men hold those opinions of women, but women hold those opinions of other women. I've worked with strong, aggressive career women who I greatly admire. And I've worked with a couple of women that were bitchy. Mostly, the difference is a matter of behavior style, not the fact that they were talented, motivated, and aggressive.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on May 7, 2013 13:55:38 GMT -5
Ava, it may appear that way on the outside, but any man in any "sucessful" job has paid his dues. You just weren't there to see it. I'm sure if you were to approach any male in a high powered, high earning job and ask him how he rose through the ranks, you'd get plenty of stories of long hours, tough times, and challenges overcome. I think the difference is many men who make it to the top are credited with hard work and talent. Women who make it up to the top get credited with the hard work and talent, but they are also considered lucky.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 7, 2013 14:05:45 GMT -5
Women who make it up to the top get credited with the hard work and talent, but they are also considered lucky.
That is a cultural bias though, not an institutional one. And unfortunately a lot of women continue to play into it by downplaying their success and also not bothering to get to the top.
When you're an anomaly you're going to be viewed as someone who got lucky compared to seeing a sea of similar faces.
We need to break the stereotype and move into higher positions. The more female faces, the more it'll be considered the norm rather than a lucky fluke.
Women in general are taught that we're not supposed to boast/brag and we downplay our contributions. Meanwhile men will sell themselves. It's a fact that men will go for a job where they meet 50% or less of the qualifications, women tend to hold out unless they meet 100% of the qualifications.
That's not industry holding us back, that's ourselves holding us back.
Not everyone woman is capable or wants to climb the ladder, just as not every man does. But cultural change doesn't happen in a vaccuum, you're not going to effect change sitting in your cubicle waiting for the boss to notice and promote you.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on May 7, 2013 14:17:39 GMT -5
"Only" 38K...as others mentioned it's called paying your dues. As to another poster if getting your CPA license doesn't get you a raise or a higher paying job elsewhere you're doing it wrong. I finished school 7 years ago and adjusted for inflation I made less than you did. So I put my resume out there, got another job, got my CPA license, my workload has increased a ton and I've been promoted 2 times since then. My salary has more than tripled based on what I was making right when I got out of school.
To be blunt and I say that because I don't mean to be mean - you sound like too many people who just got out of school. Too many undergrads think that a degree entitles them to certain jobs and/or pay when the reality is you're pretty much entry level. Get in their and bust your hump and you will be rewarded. If you aren't getting rewarded then once you have some experience get your resume out there and find a job where you will be.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on May 7, 2013 16:03:26 GMT -5
Women are also considered to be the primary caregiver to not only any children they may have, but also to aging relatives. As for maternity leave, if you have an employee who takes maternity leave (or parental leave if a man) but does a fantastic job all the rest of the time then I don't think they should be punished because they chose to have a child. but then you are excusing her absence while the rest of the troops carried on this is where things get difficult.... if i have two identical candidates, but one is a new mom, and the other hasnt had any children, making the decision between them comes down to little differences i have made those decisions over my career...and have gone both ways in my decisions.....but now, the choice is easier due to my actual results....i lean towards the one without kids why....because i can count on her not to have "children" issues at the worst possible times sometimes it just has to be done NOW...and that means all hands on deck...moms have a harder time with those issues (fair or not, it is the truth) i cant listen to the daycare problem, or the sick child problem, or anything else....i have a problem and need it fixed this is one of the reasons men get promoted ahead of women...not saying it is fair...as a manager it has been a tough issue for me for 20 years So you are less likely to promote a mom, (not parent, but mom) because in your experience women who are mothers are less likely to get their work done?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2013 16:10:36 GMT -5
So you are less likely to promote a mom, (not parent, but mom) because in your experience women who are mothers are less likely to get their work done?
is that what i said?
please reread what i wrote.....
and if a man were in the same position (main caretaker for a child) i would think the same about him
But ONLY if i have two identical candidates
other than that, please dont try to put words down that are not my own
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on May 7, 2013 16:17:21 GMT -5
I'm not putting words in your mouth, I asked a question based on your post.
I just find it interesting. Dh is the primary care taker for our kids, but he still gets more leeway than the moms at his job.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 7, 2013 16:17:24 GMT -5
::So you are less likely to promote a mom, (not parent, but mom) because in your experience women who are mothers are less likely to get their work done? ::
Others may not say it, but I will. Yes, that's been my experience...kind of. It's less about about not getting "their work" done, and not being able/willing to take on their share of the work and having it go to someone else. And I think "mom" is not necessarily accurate, as a mom could have a 25 year old child which probably negates the effect (though I still see it plenty with mothers who have young adult children also).
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on May 7, 2013 23:01:19 GMT -5
"so they learn to take out their aggression in unproductive ways - like befriending other girls in order to get dirt on them and then use that as emotional blackmail" Seriously, you think girls are taught to think this way? Not in the circles I ran with. That's just plain mean spirited and we didn't want to be around that kind of negative energy. I had it happen to me multiple times as a kid. It's not that girls (or at least the ones I went to school with) are taught TO backstab their friends - it's that they're discouraged from showing any outward aggression. So they have to find a nonviolent way to show aggression and assert power. I'm not totally pulling this out of my ass either - there are numerous books on this subject. Mind you, I don't have any friends that do that now nor do I do it. I agree that it's extremely mean-spirited and childish. It's interesting that you mention this, since I've just experienced it with a (now ex-) friend at work. Over the last 2 weeks, she waged a backstabbing campaign against me. This evening, she made small talk with me like everything was normal. However, I know what true friend s are like, and I've seen her true colors. I don't know if I should have confronted her about it or just continue to hold onto my cards for now.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 8, 2013 8:41:41 GMT -5
Isn't it odd that some women experience this when others do not at all? DSs old girlfriend is a public accountant, just got her CPA. Started in mid-thirties range two years ago, passed her test, got a 10k raise, then left to go to private. Got a 20k sign on bonus and pay of 56k. She's 25. But she does speak English and presents herself very professionally.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2013 9:10:55 GMT -5
primary caregiver parent, , parents place their children's needs ahead of the workplace. So you are less likely to promote a mom, (not parent, but mom) because in your experience women who are mothers are less likely to get their work done?
fixed
and yes....i would promote a non parent over a parent IF they were identical in every other way
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2013 9:35:50 GMT -5
Women (generalizing) don't fight for higher wages. The also tend to stay loyal to an employer and won't job hop to a higher salary level. Want to be treated like a man - start thinking like one. Actually this seems to have been biting me on the ass my whole life. When I first started working at low wage jobs, I got told by my boss that if I kept getting smarter, no one would want to marry me. Yeah... My latest job was the biggest disappointment. I really respected my boss, he was a real people person, and I was making the company a truck ton of money. It was very clear, I filed the finance summaries and kept track of our project logs. At his encouragement, I was learning a huge amount and taking on a lot of responsibility. But I started getting worried when he said "you're always thinking" like it was making her nervous and uncomfortable. After two years of working in his department, I approach him for a substantial raise, rather than slowly rising in clerical level pay scales. I was doing engineer work, preparing the sites, coordinating all the people involved, creating technical instructions for the field work based on proposals, doing lab analysis, lab assignments, several parts of the actual reports... I had a lot of stress and responsibility. The department was thriving, and wages for the others had gone up 25%. He flat out lied to me, and hard balled me bad, saying he expected me to put in my notice at some point and move on to other and better things. The only way to get a decent raise was to not only get a masters of engineering, but the pass the P.E. exam; being an E.I wasn't good enough. I think he figured I didn't have the guts to leave. I put in my notice the next day. He then counter offered to take away my stressful responsibilities, and literally knock me back to clerical. I knew that wouldn't last; we'd get slammed, and I'd jump in to help, because I could; I spent years learning all that, and I really liked my coworkers. My boss was really concerned I would filed a sexual discrimination suit when I left, which makes me think he's either had a history of it, or it actually was because I'm female. I'm pretty discouraged by it all. I'm a large girl, 5'9" built like a D & D dwarf. I use chainsaws and am the one to wiggle under our house if need be and I fix the plumbing. DF similarly works in a professional field, but he has a very rough time with spelling and run on sentences. He also doesn't have a degree. He's making very good money. I'm sure there's something here that's my fault, something I did wrong, but darned if I can sort it out right now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2013 10:00:59 GMT -5
I'm pretty discouraged by it all. I'm a large girl, 5'9" built like a D & D dwarf.
I love this line
Most wont get the reference, but i do
My first question is why you waited on approaching your boss? As you took on more, you should have been compensated for the effort and knowledge
Are you still there? And if so, why? What is holding you there?
In your opinion, how easily can HE replace what you do? That is the ONLY determination of what you are worth. Can someone step in tomorrow, and they not miss you at all? Or will the place have a huge decrease in productivity because of you leaving?
You need to make some hard and fast decisions....do you want to stay....and what is the MINIMUM you would be happy with?
And then setup a meeting with him....lay down your terms.....
Tell him yes or no.....no negotiation...no thinking.....you need his decision
And then shut up......i mean it.....do not say anything else till he answers
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2013 10:11:42 GMT -5
I'm pretty discouraged by it all. I'm a large girl, 5'9" built like a D & D dwarf.I love this line Most wont get the reference, but i do My first question is why you waited on approaching your boss? As you took on more, you should have been compensated for the effort and knowledge Are you still there? And if so, why? What is holding you there? In your opinion, how easily can HE replace what you do? That is the ONLY determination of what you are worth. Can someone step in tomorrow, and they not miss you at all? Or will the place have a huge decrease in productivity because of you leaving? You need to make some hard and fast decisions....do you want to stay....and what is the MINIMUM you would be happy with? And then setup a meeting with him....lay down your terms..... Tell him yes or no.....no negotiation...no thinking.....you need his decision And then shut up......i mean it.....do not say anything else till he answers Nope, I'm not there anymore. I won't work for someone who lies to me. He was seriously freaking out and panicked by the end, but wouldn't back down on refusing to pay me more. I know I'm replaceable; everything I can do, my coworkers can do (they trained me), with the exception of a few site plan templates they'll have had to sort out. I improved them to make them easily editable and a heck of a lot cleaner and sharper in quality. Or they can go back to using the old ones. They will lose a ton of productivity though. Like I said, I filed the finances and kept the project logs. For seven years before I started, they had heavy losses in the department. With the addition of me in the mix making sure projects flowed smoothly from start to finish, few to no delays, and jumping in to release pressure at different points as needed, then handling things exclusively, we improved project flow rate 85% the first year, and then another 14% on top of that. Even with the huge wage raises, the department soared to strong, steady profits month to month. Before I left, the consensus from my previous department was that most people figure that my ability to keep things flowing doesn't seem like that big of a deal... until I'm gone. I know I'm replaceable. But I was a proven strong asset. My boss told me the only thing that mattered was a degree in the field AND the P.E. exam; I'd have to suck it up with clerical or leave otherwise. Having an accounting degree, strong communication skills and hard driving work ethic wasn't enough. I'm really mulling this one over.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2013 10:21:19 GMT -5
well.....i wish you well
and in your shoes, i might consider a talk with counsel to see if there is a case
not sure if there is one....but a 20 minute talk might shed some light on that
in that field, any competitors you can go to locally? call them and tell them you would like 10 minutes of their time
they may not be hiring.....until they see someone they just got to have
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2013 11:11:37 GMT -5
Lol, funnily enough, I do have the names and email addresses of almost every competitor in the area, along with positive face time with most of them. My boss was an officer in the local chapter of our professional development organization. Since he was busy, I was the one who sent out announcements, fielded questions, made name tags and certificates, and then went with him to sign everybody in and and collect dues with the other officers. The president of the organization worked with me pretty much exclusively at the last event, and thanked me several times for making stepping up and making the events flow smoothly and professionally.
I dunno. I feel really disoriented. It's been my experience that people compliment me effusively and think I do phenomenal jobs, but it doesn't translate to pay. I'm cooling off for now, so that I can go to interviews upbeat and ready to speak well of everyone again. In my experience the sure way to tank an interview is to let it get dark or bitter. No matter what questions are asked, I need find a way to spin the answer to an upbeat tone, or at least thoughtful and mellow.
Partly too, I feel like I'm at a crossroad. Do I keep going with this field that I'm now work-trained in? I'm also academically leveled up in accounting... maybe I should focus on giving that a shot, it was just the recession and various circumstances that landed me somewhere else. Or maybe I should say heck with it and do my garage band pipe dream, and try to be a novelist? DF has a really good job now, with guaranteed raises, and is on board if I want (it's hard to describe how supportive he is). No matter what, I need to cool down a bit first though.
For a lawsuit, I don't think I have it in me to wage a protracted war over a low pay job with no real money at stake. And sad as it is, I really did like my boss, and I certainly liked my coworkers. I feel really conflicted, and mostly sort of depressed. I still worry about the department when it rains and I know the the schedule has to be shuffled.
Thanks for wishing me luck. I'm going to be moving forward, one way or another. I just really hope that my situations are more or less unusual. DF and I are very alike in work ethic, but he's actually by far the more "feminine" of the two of us on balance. He likes getting dressed up and eating at fancy places, hates confrontation, is grossed out by sweat, he's fantastic at cooking & cleaning... basically, he's mostly classically feminine, but with guy parts and short hair. He keeps ambling upwards in pay so easily without asking. I start to wonder sometimes. I really hope it's just unusual bad luck so far on my end.
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on May 8, 2013 11:34:22 GMT -5
Men deserve to get paid more because women judge us based on our money. Women are judged based on their looks so money is not as important to them. Conclusion: Men need to be paid more, and women in the workplace need to be hotter. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png)
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