thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 30, 2013 13:58:47 GMT -5
Steve - I once called someone as asshole, and I got banned, so you are being treated the same as others.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 30, 2013 14:02:22 GMT -5
I did not ask anything about COC or what is allowed here or anything of the such. I asked for personal opinions of whether or not it was rude to call someone a douche bag after they called Obama a douche bag. For instance if you were sitting at the lunch table and someone said Obama is a douche bag and another guy responded to the first guy that, no, he was the douche bag. What is your personal opinion of the manners displayed?
Yes. It is rude
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 30, 2013 14:10:02 GMT -5
Steve? It's been practice on this board to criticize, ridicule and yes, even name call politicians/celebrities/etc. It's probably not nice to call anyone names, but most of us have done it. Whether or not it makes an argument moot is beside the point as I understand your OP. The fact of the matter is that it isn't against the CoC to call a politician a bad name. That doesn't count as "attacking a poster" behavior. Calling a certain poster a douche bag IS attacking a poster and that IS against the CoC. I understand that you think that attacking your opinion is the same as attacking you personally, but I disagree. I can think someone's opinion is dumb but that doesn't mean I think the person is dumb. Now while I agree that making an agument against something someone posts by responding with calling someone a douche bag is childish and shows an extreme lack of vocabulary/rational argument, in addition to being dismissive, rude and just generally junior highish, but it isn't against the CoC as I read it. What you apparently said was. It's as simple as that. Some things may be distasteful but distasteful doesn't equal violation of the CoC. I'm afraid you just don't have a leg to stand on. I hope that's a serious opinion you were looking for. But what is all boils down to is a mod's opinion. We have to respect that even if we disagree with it. But "dutch bag" was still funny as all hell. I did not ask anything about COC or what is allowed here or anything of the such. I asked for personal opinions of whether or not it was rude to call someone a douche bag after they called Obama a douche bag. For instance if you were sitting at the lunch table and someone said Obama is a douche bag and another guy responded to the first guy that, no, he was the douche bag. What is your personal opinion of the manners displayed? I gave you my personal opinion of the manners displayed. See the bolded part in my post you quoted. My personal opinion is that if we wish to enjoy dialogue on this board, we must adhere to the rules, whether we like them or not. I happen to agree that I don't think it was quite fair to delete your post and not the post that preceeded it, but my opinion doesn't count. And I can also see why that decision was made. Doesn't mean I like it, but I have to live with it.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 30, 2013 14:13:00 GMT -5
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Apr 30, 2013 14:15:03 GMT -5
To me, there's a big difference between calling a public figure a disparaging name and calling someone sitting across the table from you (or a fellow poster on a message board) the same disparaging name. The public figure puts him/herself in the public eye, voices opinions to a large media audience and, often, calls opponents disparaging names. Is it rude to do so? In my opinion, yes, it is. However, it's not my business to get in the name-callers face about it. The person didn't call me a disparaging name, and I'm not the Appointed International Defender. Therefore, it's far more rude to jump into a battle that doesn't concern you and start calling names. I'd just mind my own business and let the person being called said disparaging name mind his/hers.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Apr 30, 2013 14:19:42 GMT -5
"I disagree" would be correct. One could then continue with an explanation as to why there is disagreement.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Apr 30, 2013 14:33:33 GMT -5
We do have a highly irregular set of rules. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) You're an idiot. (Not Allowed) You consistently express idiotic ideas. (Allowed) You're an idiot. (Not Allowed) <Politican> is an idiot and so is anyone who supports him. (Allowed, even when said to somebody who openly supports <politician>.) We're used to you saying stupid things, <poster>. (Not Allowed) Some people can't help but say stupid things. (Allowed, even when "some people" is clearly and exclusively referring to <poster>.) I don't have time to debate a moron. (Not Allowed) An old colleague once asked me, "Have you ever debated a moron?" (Allowed, despite the question being rhetorical.) Your family members are idiots. (Not Allowed) Democrats are idiots. (Allowed) Black Democrats are idiots. (Not Allowed) Black Democrats who dislike white people are idiots. (Allowed) Black Democrats who dislike white people just because white people are superior are idiots. (Not Allowed) You're an idiot. (Not Allowed) Your family members are idiots. (Not Allowed) Your entire community is full of idiots. (Could go either way.) Your whole city is full of idiots. (Allowed) Your whole state is full of idiots. (Allowed) Your whole country is full of idiots. (Could go either way.) Your whole race is full of idiots. (Not Allowed) Your whole gender is full of idiots. (Not Allowed) Your whole generation is full of idiots. (Allowed) Argh! I'd give anything for a forum not infested by dimwits! (Allowed) Argh! I'd give anything for a forum not infested by stupid, f'ing dimwits. (Not Allowed) I am a stupid f'ing dimwit today and I feel perfectly at home in this forum. (Allowed) If you can come up with a reasonably short, cohesive set of general rules that subsumes all of the above, you'll have succeeded where I failed. My only advice is that the indirectness of the insult, the severity of the language used, the size and nature of the group being targeted by the insult, the number of insults compounded into a single post, and other factors such as self-deprecation, humour, etc. all have some bearing on whether an insult is permitted or not. Caveat postor. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/undecided.png)
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Apr 30, 2013 14:38:31 GMT -5
My personal opinion is found in my earlier posts in this thread. #1 is rude. #2 is ruder.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 30, 2013 14:39:26 GMT -5
Thanks, Virgil. That clears it up.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Apr 30, 2013 14:41:10 GMT -5
To me, there's a big difference between calling a public figure a disparaging name and calling someone sitting across the table from you (or a fellow poster on a message board) the same disparaging name. The public figure puts him/herself in the public eye, voices opinions to a large media audience and, often, calls opponents disparaging names. Is it rude to do so? In my opinion, yes, it is. However, it's not my business to get in the name-callers face about it. The person didn't call me a disparaging name, and I'm not the Appointed International Defender. Therefore, it's far more rude to jump into a battle that doesn't concern you and start calling names. I'd just mind my own business and let the person being called said disparaging name mind his/hers. Imagine you are sitting at a table at work talking about some Iman's speech you just heard the night before and the guy across the table says, "all muslims are douche bags." You do or do not think he was rude? Your friend sitting next to you, looks at the guy and says to him, "no, you are the douche bag." You do or do not think your friend was rude? No, I don't think the original speaker was rude. I think he's probably ignorant. In your scenario, the friend is definitely rude.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 30, 2013 14:42:27 GMT -5
To me, there's a big difference between calling a public figure a disparaging name and calling someone sitting across the table from you (or a fellow poster on a message board) the same disparaging name. The public figure puts him/herself in the public eye, voices opinions to a large media audience and, often, calls opponents disparaging names. Is it rude to do so? In my opinion, yes, it is. However, it's not my business to get in the name-callers face about it. The person didn't call me a disparaging name, and I'm not the Appointed International Defender. Therefore, it's far more rude to jump into a battle that doesn't concern you and start calling names. I'd just mind my own business and let the person being called said disparaging name mind his/hers. Imagine you are sitting at a table at work talking about some Iman's speech you just heard the night before and the guy across the table says, "all muslims are douche bags." You do or do not think he was rude? Your friend sitting next to you, looks at the guy and says to him, "no, you are the douche bag." You do or do not think your friend was rude? Yes, the friend was rude. Responding to a rude comment with an equally rude comment doesn't make the second comment suddenly OK. Why resort to namecalling? Why couldn't the friend just say, "Wow, that's a rude thing to say" or "My experience has been the opposite, why would you say that?" If one's goal is to out the original commenter as ignorant, unenlightened, whatever - responding with a rude comment usually achieves the opposite result and makes you both look petty.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Apr 30, 2013 14:44:04 GMT -5
Bolding attributed to Designs by Mmhmm.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 30, 2013 14:49:17 GMT -5
Hey! I need my living room redeco'd! Come on over.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Apr 30, 2013 15:03:08 GMT -5
Hey! I need my living room redeco'd! Come on over. LOL! We'll do your living room in Spring Bold! ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png)
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Apr 30, 2013 15:04:41 GMT -5
Bolding attributed to Designs by Mmhmm. You can bold whatever you like. What you can not do is reconcile the above with what Virgil wrote. It reconciles just fine with what Virgil said. If you can't see that, I can't help you.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Apr 30, 2013 15:06:56 GMT -5
Yes, the friend was rude. Responding to a rude comment with an equally rude comment doesn't make the second comment suddenly OK. Why resort to namecalling? Why couldn't the friend just say, "Wow, that's a rude thing to say" or "My experience has been the opposite, why would you say that?" If one's goal is to out the original commenter as ignorant, unenlightened, whatever - responding with a rude comment usually achieves the opposite result and makes you both look petty. Do you have much success with that? Do you think someone calling someone else a douche bag is really just a lack of knowledge? Because in my experience it is usually meant as an insult. "You're a dumbass" is a more effective way to tell someone you disagree with them then "I disagree with your last statement, Larry. Why would you say such an uninformed thing?" if the person is being insulting on purpose. Imo, no one calls anyone a douche bag unless they mean insult. If you know the rules, should it be so hard to stick to them? The only reason to insult somebody is to aggravate them. Abide by four rules of thumb: 1) don't respond to posts when you're angry; 2) always give a specific reason for your hostility when engaging another poster in any kind of hostile discourse; 3) never take offense unless you are absolutely certain offense is intended; and 4) be willing to abandon any argument, ignoring any parting shots, if your opponent is being unreasonable.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 30, 2013 15:07:00 GMT -5
Yes, the friend was rude. Responding to a rude comment with an equally rude comment doesn't make the second comment suddenly OK. Why resort to namecalling? Why couldn't the friend just say, "Wow, that's a rude thing to say" or "My experience has been the opposite, why would you say that?" If one's goal is to out the original commenter as ignorant, unenlightened, whatever - responding with a rude comment usually achieves the opposite result and makes you both look petty. Do you have much success with that? Do you think someone calling someone else a douche bag is really just a lack of knowledge? Because in my experience it is usually meant as an insult. "You're a dumbass" is a more effective way to tell someone you disagree with them then "I disagree with your last statement, Larry. Why would you say such an uninformed thing?" if the person is being insulting on purpose. Imo, no one calls anyone a douche bag unless they mean insult. Do you have much success when responding by calling someone a derogatory name - other than it just makes you feel better?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Apr 30, 2013 15:10:09 GMT -5
The opposite is true, as far as I'm concerned. "I disagree with your last statement, Larry, and this is why." is a much more effective way to disagree than "You're a dumbass".
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 30, 2013 15:10:40 GMT -5
Yes, the friend was rude. Responding to a rude comment with an equally rude comment doesn't make the second comment suddenly OK. Why resort to namecalling? Why couldn't the friend just say, "Wow, that's a rude thing to say" or "My experience has been the opposite, why would you say that?" If one's goal is to out the original commenter as ignorant, unenlightened, whatever - responding with a rude comment usually achieves the opposite result and makes you both look petty. Do you have much success with that? Do you think someone calling someone else a douche bag is really just a lack of knowledge? Because in my experience it is usually meant as an insult. "You're a dumbass" is a more effective way to tell someone you disagree with them then "I disagree with your last statement, Larry. Why would you say such an uninformed thing?" if the person is being insulting on purpose. Imo, no one calls anyone a douche bag unless they mean insult. You'd be surprised how effective a "Wow, that was rude" can be. Most people who make a habit of spouting uninformed/offensive statements aren't used to being called on them. I can't realy speak to how effective name-calling is, since I try not to do that, but personally, if I were to express an opinion and someone chose to call me an idiot (rather than debate the opinion) I wouldn't take much of what they said seriously. I don't think calling someone a dumbass is an effective way to tell someone you disagree with them. It is an effective way to make it look as though you have no logical argument against what they've said, so have resorted to personal attacks instead. Some of the most intelligent posters on here are ones with whom I frequently disagree. Calling them "dumbasses" is neither true nor does anything to advance the discussion. Do you have much success with namecalling?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 30, 2013 15:12:03 GMT -5
Hey! I need my living room redeco'd! Come on over. LOL! We'll do your living room in Spring Bold! ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png) Good! Cause I'm getting tired of the Victorian Italics I have now.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Apr 30, 2013 15:13:53 GMT -5
I am not the smartest quickest guy as many of you know, but I finally learned not to start threads on anything I cared about. It is just asking to be mocked and ridiculed. As I recall, many people supported your interest in learning to lead a more self-sufficient lifestyle and were interested in hearing more. It was the 'sky is falling, doomsday' crap that earned some ridicule.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Apr 30, 2013 15:19:55 GMT -5
It reconciles just fine with what Virgil said. If you can't see that, I can't help you. You and I have a completely different understanding of what the words 'courteous' and 'respectful' mean. You believe there is a courteous and respectful way for someone to tell your mother that her ' whole generation is full of idiots.'? I think that is rude as hell, and in no way courteous. You are okay manners wise with someone telling her "You consistently express idiotic ideas." There is no way in the world that is a courteous or respectful sentence. No, steve, I don't believe there is a courteous, or respectful way to tell my mother (or anyone else) their whole generation is full of idiots; nor, do I believe it's okay to tell her (or anyone else) they consistently express idiotic ideas. Both are rude. Now, if I overhear someone say my mother's whole generation is full of idiots, I might decide to disagree and tell them why I disagree. If I don't know the person, I'll probably ignore them. Your first example is speaking to a person directly and insulting that person directly. Your second example comes from Virgil's post, not mine. In future, don't try to tell me what I believe. You don't have a clue what I believe unless I choose to tell you what I believe and you are able to understand what I'm saying.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 30, 2013 15:20:20 GMT -5
Yeah, but I use a trick I learned in the military, always put somebody down in the form of a question. We're hardwired to spend at least a split second thinking about something if it comes at us in the form of a question, so it makes the insult more personal and humiliating if it comes as a question.
So, instead of "Nuh uh, you're a douche bag!" Which will be totally ignored. You'd say, "Is it painful being that much of a douche bag?" Or, "I've always been curious, and have no personal experience, but is life harder to navigate when you're a fucking moron? It seems like it would be, but maybe you hit a point where you're too stupid to realize you're a moron, and you just skate through totally oblivious to the fact that you don't have the first fucking clue what you're talking about. Which way has it gone for you?"
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 30, 2013 15:22:21 GMT -5
We are not talking about you though, we are talking about a person calling another person a 'douche bag'. I would imagine if you went around calling people douche bags, you would get used to being called a dumbass. You asked our opinions, did you not? My opinion is based on my own experience, which is that when someone goes around calling others names, their opinion tends not to be taken as seriously as someone who actually engages in meaningful conversation. That goes for the original person who called a public figure a douchebag, as well as the person who responded by calling that poster a douchebag.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 15:28:28 GMT -5
Say you are talking politics or current events with someone and that someone (the first person) calls a national figure a douche bag. You (the second person) respond by saying, "No, you are the douche bag." Is the second person a rude person? Are both people being rude and outside accepted manners? To me in this case both being rude. steve Internet world's still little foreign to me but I met some few wonderful people from this chat room. In my case it's has been worthy of my time and experiences.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 15:45:31 GMT -5
It reconciles just fine with what Virgil said. If you can't see that, I can't help you. You and I have a completely different understanding of what the words 'courteous' and 'respectful' mean. You believe there is a courteous and respectful way for someone to tell your mother that her ' whole generation is full of idiots.'? I think that is rude as hell, and in no way courteous. You are okay manners wise with someone telling her "You consistently express idiotic ideas." There is no way in the world that is a courteous or respectful sentence.I agree with what you stated it above.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Apr 30, 2013 15:55:07 GMT -5
If someone calls me names instead of just saying they disagree with me I am very likely never to speak with them if I can help it or limit the time I talk to them if I must interact. I suppose its effective if that's the result you are looking for. When someone calls me a name though, my first thought is not - that person just disagrees with what I said.
Imo, no one calls anyone a douche bag unless they mean insult.
I agree, but that kind of contradicts your statement that it is an effective way to disagree with someone. Again, effective depends on your definition. People are going to disagree with me so *my* goal is not to stop the disagreement in most cases but to keep the conversation civil. "You're a dumbass" doesn't seem that much more civil IMO than "You are a douche bag". For me the most useful way to say I disagree is to simply say "I disagree." If they aren't going to change their mind I rarely bother and in person usually go the raised eyebrow route.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Apr 30, 2013 16:05:44 GMT -5
BTW, I think Virgil's post of examples was to point out there are some very rude things that are allowed to exist on the message board per the CoC.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 16:07:48 GMT -5
Imo, no one calls anyone a douche bag unless they mean insult. Yes!If anyone ever calls me a name like that without the reason, or with reason it doesn't make any difference to me. They are out of my life so fast they don't even realize which way wind's blowing. That's the principle I lived by I am not about to change that now.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 16:22:45 GMT -5
Add to my point The words can hurt, degrade another person without intention.
We must learn to speak with care. Think before you speak that's what I learned.
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