Local florist refuses to service same-sex marriage

[Opti]

Apr 12, 2013 12:55:33 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Pick-up would not have solved her problem.  She didn't want to service the wedding.  It doesn't matter if she was on the premises or not - she didn't want to profit from something she believed was morally wrong.  

I really don't get the line.

Profit via gay dating OK.
Profit via gay marriage not OK.

And my guess is she feels cheating is morally wrong but she probably profits weekly
from cheaters buying flowers for the wronged spouse, GF/BF. It obviously follows some emotional logic I just don't understand.

[fairlycrazy23]

People and the businesses they run should be free to be bigoted, homophobic and any other form of stupidity they want.
And of course people should be free to avoid such establishments if they want.

[thyme4change]

I agree with you Optimist.  I was part of the Christian church for many years, and after I left I realized how weird they were.  When you are in something, the language and jargon they use seems normal, because everyone says it.  Once you get away from it, you realize how twisted it is, and you are being manipulated to keep a group of people in power.  But, yes, that is basically what they think.  She didn't judge them, because that is up to God, but at some point, she couldn't participate - because she has to stand up for God.  And isn't it convenient that her magically line happened to be on the exact topic of the hottest political debate going on right now.  She couldn't draw her line based on her own beliefs - but, magically, God spoke to her and asked her to stand guard on this particular line at this particular time.  

[Tennesseer]

Apr 12, 2013 13:08:30 GMT -5 Opti said:

Apr 12, 2013 12:55:33 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Pick-up would not have solved her problem.  She didn't want to service the wedding.  It doesn't matter if she was on the premises or not - she didn't want to profit from something she believed was morally wrong.  

I really don't get the line.

Profit via gay dating OK.
Profit via gay marriage not OK.

And my guess is she feels cheating is morally wrong but she probably profits weekly
from cheaters buying flowers for the wronged spouse, GF/BF. It obviously follows some emotional logic I just don't understand.

I bet she provided the wedding arrangements for divorced people's 2nd and 3rd marriage ceremonies.

[thyme4change]

Our church hired a divorced minister.  He had cheated on his wife.

We left the church.  They sent their recovery team after us, and told us that everyone makes mistakes and we are to forgive this man for his.  I said I can forgive him just fine, but I don't want him and his track record to lead me spiritually.  The guy lasted about 4 months at the church.  I wonder if he is using his back-up accounting degree now.

[shelby]

Apr 12, 2013 13:13:01 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I agree with you Optimist.  I was part of the Christian church for many years, and after I left I realized how weird they were.  When you are in something, the language and jargon they use seems normal, because everyone says it.  Once you get away from it, you realize how twisted it is, and you are being manipulated to keep a group of people in power.  But, yes, that is basically what they think.  She didn't judge them, because that is up to God, but at some point, she couldn't participate - because she has to stand up for God.  And isn't it convenient that her magically line happened to be on the exact topic of the hottest political debate going on right now.  She couldn't draw her line based on her own beliefs - but, magically, God spoke to her and asked her to stand guard on this particular line at this particular time.  

Try being sheltered from religion until you are in the 4th grade and go to a fundamental Christian church with your friend. I am not trying to be rude but is was not a pleasant experience I definitely did not have warm fuzzies. I went to Catholic church with another friend and actually enjoyed that.

[thyme4change]

I'm trying to figure out how much religion to expose my children to (and how.)  We come from such faithful families, but now, we want nothing to do with the church.  I'm sure certain family members have ulcers that our kids are not being brought up in the church, and I do want them to have some exposure so they can make their own choice.  But I don't want to go, and I'm not sure I want them being in one of those experiences that messes with them.  Quandary. 

[shelby]

Try Unitarian Universalist church they are open to all beliefs and all people.

[swamp]

Apr 12, 2013 13:45:17 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I'm trying to figure out how much religion to expose my children to (and how.)  We come from such faithful families, but now, we want nothing to do with the church.  I'm sure certain family members have ulcers that our kids are not being brought up in the church, and I do want them to have some exposure so they can make their own choice.  But I don't want to go, and I'm not sure I want them being in one of those experiences that messes with them.  Quandary. 

I solved my quandry by sending my kids to Catholic School.    The guilt trips are free with full tuition payment.

[Deleted]

There are several fun, not overly aggressive bible camps around in summer. That might be 'just enough' at that age... For the most part I've left that to their own  interests and questions and to being older and having the reasoning skills to think/evaluate first...

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 12, 2013 12:48:37 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

Apr 12, 2013 12:10:25 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Christian businesses, like any other business, must follow the laws of the state in which they choose to do business.  Nobody is forcing anyone to face fines for living their lives as Christians, since nobody forced this woman to open a florist in the state of Washington.

nope...no one forced her to open a shop in Washington

and i wouldnt be surprised if she closed it now also

and moved her shop, and jobs, to another locale

and i wonder if anyone else with her beliefs might follow the same way of thinking

forcing people to go against their beliefs....hasnt that caused a few issues in the past

Well, now that you bring it up- that is a good point.  Ex post facto laws.  The fact is that she wasn't compelled to participate in gay weddings when she opened up shop.  She made the investment oblivious to the fact this law would be in place- she put her risk capital in play in this business, she's paid her taxes, and the one thing the government MUST do- protect her right to express her religious beliefs in any way she pleases so long as she doesn't infringe on the natural rights of others- they're doing the opposite.  They're taking her money, and using it against her.  

Can you explain what natural rights are, and can you explain how refusing to sell someone flowers, or refusing to provide a service is violating anyone's natural rights?

And btw- it's not lost on me that there are other good points being made here.  I'm focused on the government use of force against her.  Is this really the scourge of Washington State? They have no other issues- even providing this is an offense of some kind that must be remedied?

But from a business perspective- yeah, I had that thought, too:  gay dating: fine.  gay marriage: no way.  And she's a Christian, and true Christians (IMHO) ought not divorce except for infidelity (not their own), so does she do second weddings? Is there a questionnaire? Does she sell flowers to people heterosexual fornicators, and people just shacking up?

[thyme4change]

Or even, more simply, atheist weddings?  I mean, if you believe that God is needed to create a union between a man and a woman (as I believe the bible says) then, really any non-church/non-religious wedding is an affront to a Christian union.

[swamp]

But from a business perspective- yeah, I had that thought, too: gay dating: fine. gay marriage: no way. And she's a Christian, and true Christians (IMHO) ought not divorce except for infidelity (not their own), so does she do second weddings? Is there a questionnaire? Does she sell flowers to people heterosexual fornicators, and people just shacking up?

If she only sold flowers to heterosexual couples who waited until marriage to have sex and don't cheat, well, that sounds like a really bad business model. 

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 12, 2013 13:49:27 GMT -5 shelby said:

Try Unitarian Universalist church they are open to all beliefs and all people.

I KNOW this belongs in religious discussion.  Lord knows that if I suggested a church camp with a lot of funformentals types to save your kid's immortal soul, it'd get bounced, so I'ma respond to this because it's still here- and if the mods want to nix BOTH these posts- or move them, so be it.  My comment is that if your church's beliefs can be summed up as "whatever" then I can't really see the point? 

[swamp]

looks like we need a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahmbulance.

[thyme4change]

Making a mistake - like premarital sex, or cheating - is forgiven.  And being gay is natural.  But the act of having gay sex is a sin.  Therefore, entering a same-sex marriage with the intention of having gay sex is not forgivable, because you are planning on continuing having sinful sex.  

And people think lawyers are assholes for finding the loopholes.  Christians frickin' wrote the book on the subject.  

[swamp]

so what if you enter into a gay marriage with the intent of remaining celebate?  Is that a sin because you aren't putting out, or does it make it OK?

[thyme4change]

My comment is that if your church's beliefs can be summed up as "whatever" then I can't really see the point?

I actually feel the same way about the Universal Unitarian church.  I guess it is a place to go and meet people.  But the whole concept is way too hippy-dippy for me.  If you want to believe, find something real to believe in.  If you don't want to believe, man up and say you don't believe.  But, hey, I guess it works for some people.  I would not fit in.


[/span]

[thyme4change]

Apr 12, 2013 14:23:08 GMT -5 swamp said:

so what if you enter into a gay marriage with the intent of remaining celebate?  Is that a sin because you aren't putting out, or does it make it OK?

Good question.  

[Tennesseer]

Apr 12, 2013 14:21:38 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Making a mistake - like premarital sex, or cheating - is forgiven.  And being gay is natural.  But the act of having gay sex is a sin.  Therefore, entering a same-sex marriage with the intention of having gay sex is not forgivable, because you are planning on continuing having sinful sex.  

And people think lawyers are assholes for finding the loopholes.  Christians frickin' wrote the book on the subject.  

On the old MSN boards, there was a self-proclaimed celibate lesbian who stated if gay people remained celibate all their lives, they would, after they die, have a higher seat in heaven than all non-celibate heterosexual and homosexual people. These folks sacrificed more in life than everyone else.

[shelby]

It was just a suggestion sheesh I have no problem saying I don't believe.

[swamp]

Apr 12, 2013 14:29:28 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Apr 12, 2013 14:21:38 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Making a mistake - like premarital sex, or cheating - is forgiven.  And being gay is natural.  But the act of having gay sex is a sin.  Therefore, entering a same-sex marriage with the intention of having gay sex is not forgivable, because you are planning on continuing having sinful sex.  

And people think lawyers are assholes for finding the loopholes.  Christians frickin' wrote the book on the subject.  

On the old MSN boards, there was a self-proclaimed celibate lesbian who stated if gay people remained celibate all their lives, they would, after they die, have a higher seat in heaven than all non-celibate heterosexual and homosexual people. These folks sacrificed more in life than everyone else.

And they would deserve it because life without sex would suck.

[thyme4change]

Apr 12, 2013 14:29:28 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Apr 12, 2013 14:21:38 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Making a mistake - like premarital sex, or cheating - is forgiven.  And being gay is natural.  But the act of having gay sex is a sin.  Therefore, entering a same-sex marriage with the intention of having gay sex is not forgivable, because you are planning on continuing having sinful sex.  

And people think lawyers are assholes for finding the loopholes.  Christians frickin' wrote the book on the subject.  

On the old MSN boards, there was a self-proclaimed celibate lesbian who stated if gay people remained celibate all their lives, they would, after they die, have a higher seat in heaven than all non-celibate heterosexual and homosexual people. These folks sacrificed more in life than everyone else.

I'm so glad I abandoned faith completely.  That way I don't have to reconcile all these people that say that what they are doing will cause them to have "a higher seat in heaven" when I haven't found much text in the bible to support any such type of caste system in the afterlife.  If they are even one iota right, that means you have to go up to heaven and play a bunch of politics and kiss up St. Peter's ass.  Sounds like earth, but without Vegas.  

[TonyTiger]

Apr 11, 2013 15:58:40 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Apr 11, 2013 15:53:26 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

She is doing this because of her religious beliefs, and her religious beliefs are protected under the constitution. How then can any law forcing her to service this couple trump that?

The right to practice her religion without government interference is what is protected for her. To offer her services to the public and then refuse to serve a protected class of that same public due to her private/religious views is NOT protected.

And don't come back and tell me that refusing to serve someone in a protected class is practicing her religion, because it's not.

I wonder if you're correct with this observation?

1. The florist's religion informs her that homosexuality is a Sin.

2. The florist's religion informs her that gay marriage is a Sinful Act.

3. The florist's religion enjoins her to avoid Sin and to shun the Sinner.

4. The florist refuses service, citing her beliefs.

Consequently, the florist has practiced in her everyday life the principles and behaviors enjoined upon her by her religion.

Consequently, the florist was, indeed, practicing her religion, in refusing service to that member of the public.

The protected or unprotected status of the person being refused has nothing to do with it, in the narrow context of deciding whether or not the florist was practicing her religion.

The law may not ALLOW the florist to practice that aspect of her religious beliefs, but the legal details of the case do not inform us whether or not she was practicing her religion in doing so.

I'm OK with the concept that the florist was, indeed, practicing her religion, in refusing to provide service.

Now, whether or not that's 'kasher', from a sociological perspective... well... that's another matter.

Now, whether or not she is going to be able to effectively utilize the concept of Freedom of Religion as an adequate defense... well... that's another matter, as well.

But I DO believe that a good case can be made for the declaration that she was, indeed, so practicing, at the time.

Or so it appears, to this observer.

[Tennesseer]

The florist's religion also declares divorce is a sin. So does she provide floral arrangements for 2nd and 3rd marriages? I would most emphatically say yes she does. There's money to be made with marriage ceremonies.

[Opti]

<BR>
<DIV class="quote no_header">
<DIV class=quote_body>I wonder if you're correct with this observation?<BR><BR>1. The florist's religion informs her that homosexuality is a Sin.<BR><BR>2. The florist's religion informs her that gay marriage is a Sinful Act.<BR><BR>3. The florist's religion enjoins her to avoid Sin and to shun the Sinner.<BR><BR>4. The florist refuses service, citing her beliefs.<BR><BR>Consequently, the florist has practiced in her everyday life the principles and behaviors enjoined upon her by her religion.<BR><BR>Consequently, the florist was, indeed, practicing her religion, in refusing service to that member of the public.<BR></DIV><BR>The fact that both 1 & 2 are both bad in most religions who think it is sinful, why<BR>would she sell to them for purposes of #1 and not #2?<BR><BR>I think it comes down to what I call Catholic rationalization. (Not true for all Catholics,<BR>but enough it seems part of what is Catholicism in America.) Sex before marriage is<BR>bad. Guy on guy sex is bad. However, guy on woman sodomy is OK and not sex.<BR>Divorce is forbidden by religion. Cheating is bad, but cheating and staying married is<BR>better than getting divorced.<BR><BR>It is my opinion, appearance of religion. With sodomy before marriage there will be no pregnancies so it can appear you were both good even if you weren't. Same with the cheating. If you aren't caught appearances are good but if you do the right thing and divorce everyone knows.<BR><BR>If she sells them wedding flowers perhaps she feels she is condoning gay sex visibily<BR>versus just selling them flowers on Valentine's Day, Birthday's, etc. Appearance is more<BR>important than reality. Its kind of practicing your religion and failing. Although I probably should be happier as perhaps if the line in the sand is gay marriage and not gay sex, the line will eventually move to gays are humans created by God too and deserve similar rights.</DIV><BR>

[kittensaver]

Okay, I said I was done, but I gotta pop back in here one more time.

Shunning someone is NOT practicing religion. It is practicing hate.

[thyme4change]

Shunning someone is NOT practicing religion. It is practicing hate.

I guess I'm hating my MIL every time she asks us to go to church with her so the kids can learn, and we opt not to go.  I thought it was just not doing something we don't want to do.[/span]

[kittensaver]

Apr 12, 2013 15:28:39 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Shunning someone is NOT practicing religion. It is practicing hate.

I guess I'm hating my MIL every time she asks us to go to church with her so the kids can learn, and we opt not to go.  I thought it was just not doing something we don't want to do.

[/span][/quote]

If you are talking to your MIL you are not shunning her .

[thyme4change]

The florist talked to the clients.