Time article about domestic violence

[thyme4change]

lightbox.time.com/2013/02/27/photographer-as-witness-a-portrait-of-domestic-violence/#1

In the magazine (print version) they actually showed pictures of him having her pinned against the counter in the kitchen.  Did anyone else see this?

It sounded like there were quite a few people there, as a "family friend" took the child away, "another adult" called the police and the photographer kept taking pictures.  

I've never been in a physically abusive relationship.  How often are the physical confrontations while other people stand witness?  Which is worse - being alone, or having a audience?  I know it is an incredibly painful subject.  I've already starting talking to my kids about it, but I don't have a great basis for the discussion.

[justme]

Being alone, assuming the other people actually call the police. If the person doing the beating is bigger/stronger than the witness I don't necessarily fault them for stepping it - but I would fault them for not getting people that can, and whose job it is to, step in.

[milee]

Audience is worse.  Not logical, but most of the people being beaten are embarrassed this is happening to them and also probably at least partly assume it's their fault. 

[Deleted]

An audience is worse if they do nothing about it.

I read that story and the photo story line. That poor woman and those poor kids.

[haapai]

I've never been in a physically abusive relationship.  The closest I've come is being in a controlling relationship that was beginning to scare me.  I thought there was a good possibility that physical abuse was right around the corner. 

I don't think that it's all that uncommon for there to be witnesses.  A lot of witnesses are so shocked by what they are seeing and the emotions that are so nakedly on display, that they don't react particularly quickly.  The desire to make sense of what you have just seen can also mean that you have difficulty articulating it.  I also suspect that the brain's auto-erase (because it must have been and error) and over-write programs kick in pretty quickly. 

Please talk to your kids about this a lot.  It's common as dirt.  It's also not something that's limited to boy-girl relationships. 

[Phoenix84]

The thing I never understood about domestic violence is why the victem puts up with it.  If someone hit me I'd leave.  Even in the worse case scenerio and you have no job or income or anywhere to live, I would think leaving with nothing but the clothes on your back would be preferable to having the snot beat out of you on a regular basis. 

My best guess is that the victem feels this behavior is "normal" and feels like it's their fault, or they somehow deserve it. 

[midjd]

I don't think that it's all that uncommon for there to be witnesses. A lot of witnesses are so shocked by what they are seeing and the emotions that are so nakedly on display, that they don't react particularly quickly. The desire to make sense of what you have just seen can also mean that you have difficulty articulating it. I also suspect that the brain's auto-erase (because it must have been and error) and over-write programs kick in pretty quickly. 

Agreed. I can't remember a time when I've seen adult-on-adult violence (though I'm sure it has happened), but there have been probably a half-dozen times I've witnessed an adult screaming at, slapping, spanking, etc. a child in public.  Always plenty of witnesses, but all reluctant to step in or say anything.

There is some sociological term for it, but essentially, the larger the crowd of onlookers, the less likely anyone is to intervene (all thinking that someone else will do it, or if intervention was necessary, someone would've already done something).  That's how you end up with the Kitty Genovese cases.

[HoneyBBQ]

WTF is all I have to say.

And poor, poor kids.

[midjd]

The thing I never understood about domestic violence is why the victem puts up with it. If someone hit me I'd leave. Even in the worse case scenerio and you have no job or income or anywhere to live, I would think leaving with nothing but the clothes on your back would be preferable to having the snot beat out of you on a regular basis. 

It's because it's such a gradual process. Like boiling a frog by turning up the heat very slowly - first they isolate you from your family/friends, then they start the emotional "you'll never find anyone else... you're not good enough" litany. By the time it actually gets physical, the victim truly believes that's what they deserve, or that it's better than nothing, or if they just do X better, it won't happen again.

If every abuser hauled off and punched someone on the first date, there would be very little ongoing domestic violence. Very few people would put up with that (and abusers know it, so they make sure to set the foundation first.)

[thyme4change]

The thing I never understood about domestic violence is why the victem puts up with it. If someone hit me I'd leave. 

My friend told me that she put up with it because her husband said "If you try and leave, I will take the kids and leave the state.  You will never find us and there is nothing you can do about it."  And she felt it was true.  She didn't have any money.  Her family didn't support any of her decisions.  She had no resources.  So, when the youngest kid turned 16, she moved to an apartment 1 mile away.  [/span]

[Phoenix84]

My friend told me that she put up with it because her husband said "If you try and leave, I will take the kids and leave the state.  You will never find us and there is nothing you can do about it."

Well, not if she takes the kids first.....

[Deleted]

Apr 9, 2013 13:29:36 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

The thing I never understood about domestic violence is why the victem puts up with it.  If someone hit me I'd leave.  Even in the worse case scenerio and you have no job or income or anywhere to live, I would think leaving with nothing but the clothes on your back would be preferable to having the snot beat out of you on a regular basis. 

My best guess is that the victem feels this behavior is "normal" and feels like it's their fault, or they somehow deserve it. 

You never really know what you'll do until you're there yourself. 

I would prefer witnesses.  Lots and lots of witnesses.

[Phoenix84]

"It's because it's such a gradual process. Like boiling a frog by turning up the heat very slowly - first they isolate you from your family/friends, then they start the emotional "you'll never find anyone else... you're not good enough" abuse. By the time it actually gets physical, the victim truly believes that's what they deserve, or that it's better than nothing, or if they just do X better, it won't happen again."

Yes, I am aware the abuser does try to isolate the victem.  And often the abuser is apologetic afterward and will make all kinds of promises of doing better next time. 

It's just hard to imagine someone dominating me mentally and emotionally like that.  To have such poor self esteem that you think you deserve it.

And yeah, sometimes they threaten to take the kids away.  But if kids were involved I'd just take them too.  If the kids are abducted then it falls into the jurisdiction of police.   

[Deleted]

Yeah, it's all so easy looking from the outside in.  And you can't just say you'll take the kids.  That's no different than the abuser running off with the kids. He has just as much right to them as you do.   

[swamp]

He's the parent. Its not an abduction. Its a custody battle. The police won't get involved unless a court order prohibitsremovingvthe kids from the area.

[midjd]

And yeah, sometimes they threaten to take the kids away. But if kids were involved I'd just take them too. If the kids are abducted then it falls into the jurisdiction of police.

Take them where? With what money?

That's the whole point of the isolation. The abuser wants the victim to be in a position that even if s/he wanted to leave, would be unable to (lack of money, family/friends, etc.)  Not to say it can't happen, but not many people are in a position to pack up their kids and drive across the country.

Many might feel it's better to live in a home and suffer abuse on occasion than be homeless and dumpster-diving to feed their kids.

[Phoenix84]

Apr 9, 2013 13:51:37 GMT -5 swamp said:

He's the parent. Its not an abduction. Its a custody battle. The police won't get involved unless a court order prohibitsremovingvthe kids from the area.

True, but if the victem files for divorce and the other spouse just upes and leaves the state and takes the kids with him.  What would happen?  Would the courts just shrug and say "oh well, I guess we can't do anything, he's got the kids now." 

What would happen in that case?  Where the abuser takes the kids and moves out of state and tries to disappear off the face of the earth? 

[Phoenix84]

"Take them where? With what money?"

To a women's shelter? 

Anyway, I'm not trying to be a smartass and claim to have all the answers, just saying I have a hard time envisioning myself in that situation, that's all.  I realize it's different from the outside in and I don't have all the answers.  All I can do is try and brainstorm what I would do.  But it's always easy to talk and much harder to execute once you're in the situation. 

[thyme4change]

Well, not if she takes the kids first.....

She made minimum wage, at best, during most of their marriage.  She was a stay at home mom for a long time.  She dropped out of high school.  She didn't have enough money to buy lunch, much less a hotel for a single night.  Her Mom said she wouldn't help.  She had to go to work, and her kids were going to go to school.  He could pick them up there.  What options did she have?  [/span]

[greeniis10]

LOTS would happen, actually, but it would take a long time and money (that is probably not available).  It is so easy to say what you WOULD do, but until you are in that situation you can't know.  Circumstances vary greatly.

Also, YES: talk to your kids about this!  It's not always the male doing the physical and /or verbal abusing...

[justme]

 

It's just hard to imagine someone dominating me mentally and emotionally like that.  To have such poor self esteem that you think you deserve it.

You're missing the whole female/male dynamic - specifically the size/strength aspect, and to be blunt most guys never understand the full power of it. My father raised me to be strong and not take any crap, I wrestled with him more than my older brother did and I even wrestled with my older brother - often with malicious intent. But there's always that flicker in the back of my head that just about any guy could choose to overpower me if he chose to. And I'm 5'10, so it's not just something that shorter women deal with. I have a ton of guy friends and sometimes they scoff if I ask them to walk me to my car or home because they see me hanging with them and doing what they do and don't realize that in reality if any of them wanted to overtake me there would be almost nothing I could do to stop them.

I've never been abused but there have been situations, mostly when the guy is drunk, where if I didn't escape when I did I'm not sure 100% what would have happened - but I do know that if I was hit I wouldn't be able to stop the person until they wanted to. Maybe if I got in a kick to the groin or fingers in the eye, but otherwise I was completely out powered.

Now imagine that power dynamic after someone has chipped away at your self esteem. I'd imagine it would be close to the paralyzing fear I had as a small child when my dad got angry. And he never hit me so even when I thought he was mad enough to hit me part of me knew he never would, I would think it'd be a much more visceral reaction when you KNOW they've hit you before and they're going to do it again.

[movingforward]

Apr 9, 2013 14:00:18 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

"Take them where? With what money?"

To a women's shelter? 

Anyway, I'm not trying to be a smartass and claim to have all the answers, just saying I have a hard time envisioning myself in that situation, that's all.  I realize it's different from the outside in and I don't have all the answers.  All I can do is try and brainstorm what I would do.  But it's always easy to talk and much harder to execute once you're in the situation. 

I have an extremely hard time with this as well.  I just can't wrap my mind around.  As much as I have tried to understand why someone would sit around allowing themselves to be used as a punching bag I just can't.  I realize that the reason why I can't understand it is because I was not raised in that atmosphere.  In short, I simply don't get it.  I would be an absolutely terrible person to work in a domestic violence center, etc.   

[Deleted]

Apr 9, 2013 14:39:23 GMT -5 @wrongsideof30 said:

Apr 9, 2013 13:29:36 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

The thing I never understood about domestic violence is why the victem puts up with it.  If someone hit me I'd leave.  Even in the worse case scenerio and you have no job or income or anywhere to live, I would think leaving with nothing but the clothes on your back would be preferable to having the snot beat out of you on a regular basis. 

My best guess is that the victem feels this behavior is "normal" and feels like it's their fault, or they somehow deserve it. 

The worst case scenerio is they find you and they kill you. This happened to someone I know.

Or just recently near us.  He took the kids and killed them to really hurt her.

[haapai]

I honestly think that talking about self-esteem and the victim thinking that the abuse is normal isn't particularly helpful.  It makes the victim sound weak and stupid and it understates the creativity and ingenuity of many abusers. 

I knew that the controlling behavior that I was encountering wasn't right and wasn't normal.  What kept me compliant and quiet was the specter of being publicly embarrassed and my growing certainty that as mean as my girlfriend was, the rest of the world was even worse. 

The thought of having to call my parents and ask them to come get me because my girlfriend had hit me was unbearable.  I was pretty sure that if the situation ever escalated to violence, I'd be too shocked, too embarrassed, too broke, and too crazy-sounding to ever leave.  So I left before any physical abuse started. 

[Formerly SK]

I married XH when I was 20.  Less than a year into our marriage, we were walking in a neighborhood one night and I wanted to take a left whereas he wanted to take a right.  We argued and he got pissed enough that he grabbed me hard by the back of the neck and threw me flat onto the ground in the direction I had wanted to go.  Then he stormed home (we were staying with my parents at the time).  I was shocked and scared and sat crying for awhile, and then went home.

When I entered the house I found XH laughing and chatting with my parents as if nothing had happened.  That he could do that so soon after hurting me was worse than the actual assault.  I was too embarrassed to tell my parents what had happened because it would expose that I had made such collossally huge mistake in marrying the guy...and we weren't even married a year yet.  (Also, my parents were lousy people and they probably would have defended him).

Anyway, it took me four years to finally muster the courage to end it.  Not that I was scared to be alone or financially independent or anything, but to admit that in the biggest decision of my life I had made such a profound mistake (I was also a Christian at the time and divorce was not something you did).  It was really humbling. 

Now, of course, I'm older and that shit would never fly.  Interestingly, I'm FB friends with XH and his wife and they recently split up.  Now she's posting things on an almost daily basis about domestic abuse and how women need to not accept it, etc.  Obviously something happened between them.  He's a firefighter too.

[midjd]

This isn't directed at anyone here, but I think the "why would you put up with it?" attitude can be harmful when aimed at the victim.  Comments like "I can't believe you stayed for so long," "I'd never let someone do that to me," etc. may be true, and even helpful in some contexts - but when your self-esteem is beaten down from an abusive relationship, it just reinforces your belief that you are a lesser person, that you somehow asked for it, that if you were better/stronger it wouldn't have happened, and so on.

OTOH it can be incredibly frustrating when you attempt to help someone leave and they return to their abuser; so I can understand why such comments are made.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I got sucked into an emotionally abusive friendship.  Looking back it's my attitude that "I'm too smart to fall for that stuff" that partly got me into trouble.  I was so cocky/sure I'd know it when I saw it I missed all the subtler warning signs that this was getting out of control. 

Now I'm not so quick to judge.   These people are not stupid, they know what buttons to push in their targets and what hooks to latch onto.  It's a lot harder than you think to recognize you're getting sucked down the rabbit hole.

If I had been punched in the face the day I met him it would have been obvious.  Instead over the course of the year I slowly adjusted to the new normal without realizing it. 

Sleeping with the Enemy is a good moive to watch about the subject.  It starts out really small with things like the towels not being even or the pantry not being organized the way he likes it.  Actually hitting Julia Roberts comes much later.

[Formerly SK]

Apr 9, 2013 14:36:44 GMT -5 movingforward said:

Apr 9, 2013 14:00:18 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

"Take them where? With what money?"

To a women's shelter? 

Anyway, I'm not trying to be a smartass and claim to have all the answers, just saying I have a hard time envisioning myself in that situation, that's all.  I realize it's different from the outside in and I don't have all the answers.  All I can do is try and brainstorm what I would do.  But it's always easy to talk and much harder to execute once you're in the situation. 

I have an extremely hard time with this as well.  I just can't wrap my mind around.  As much as I have tried to understand why someone would sit around allow themselves to be used as a punching bag I just can't.  I realize that the reason why I can't understand it is because I was not raised in that atmosphere.  In short, I simply don't get.  I would be an absolutely terrible person to work in a domestic violence center, etc.   

I think this is the core problem.  If you are raised in an environment where you are insulted/ridiculed repeatedly it becomes your norm.  You date/marry what you are comfortable with, and if you are messed up emotionally what you are comfortable with is not necessarily healthy.

In high school I had a guy threaten to kill me once.  I actually locked myself in my car and he climbed all over the top of it hitting the car with his fists and screaming threats at me.  My parents did nothing.  In fact, a month or so later I went to visit my grandparents out of state and THEY HAD THE GUY COME LIVE IN MY BEDROOM for a a couple weeks (long story).  They completely didn't get how violated and betrayed I felt.  They just saw someone that needed a roof and offered it.  You get a couple thousand stories like this over 18 formative years and a person doesn't have a strong sense of self. 

[haapai]

I won't deny that being raised in an abusive home or seeing a lot of abuse normalizes it and probably increases a persons vulnerability to abuse. 

But it isn't a necessary part of the dynamic. 

[Phoenix84]

That's a good point formerly SK, there is probably a embarasment aspect to it.  Leaving and publicly admitting abuse is admitting your relationship is a failure, that the person you chose is a jerk. 

I can imagine this can be especially true if people like your parents or your friends did not approve of the relationship.  You are basically admitting they were right and you were wrong.  And it says something about your judgement of the other person. 

So I can see how one would want to keep up appearances, especially as to not admit fault and admit you made a mistake.  And especially if your family and/or friends would think less of you for leaving.