What are your limits with grandkids?

[Deleted]

I have six grandkids (two sets) and two more to be born in Sept.

We've always limited ourselves to keeping two; the youngest ones are 2 and 1.  The oldest ones are  9/7 and  almost 7/4.  We can't do three kids at once.  It isn't in my skill set.  I only had 2 kids myself.

Anyway, my DIL just posted that my oldest grandson (the nine-year-old) spray painted the house, the sidewalk, and something else as he did a project.  He also previously attacked her sofa with a box cutter or something (no idea how he got it).  He has some disorder (can't remember that alphabet letters here) that has to do with anger management.

Are kids more destructive than they used to be (parents?) or is this just failure to supervise? Dh is going, "There is no way these kids are coming to our house" while I am going, "If they were supervised, it should be ok."  He really didn't have kid.

I am mostly trying to reassure DH.  He is really traumatized by this.  I understand that kids do crap, but I understand his trauma as well.

Comments?

[Deleted]

If he really has a disorder that his parents can't control yet your husband is right. I don't know what it was like before, but I know these days the disorders are real and even if they are caused by bad parenting you can't fix it in the length of a visit. I would have him visit with his parents on the understanding that they take him home if he starts acting out.

[Formerly SK]

Attacking a sofa with a box cutter is not typical "boys will be boys" behavior. 

My kids are well behaved (knock on wood) so I can't imagine what your DIL is dealing with.  I guess I would try supervised visits where they come with parents for dinner.  Or maybe you just have the kids for the evening while the parents go out for dinner.  Sometimes kids are better behaved when their parents aren't around.  How does the boy do in school? 

[Peace Of Mind]

Apr 7, 2013 21:53:50 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

Attacking a sofa with a box cutter is not typical "boys will be boys" behavior. 

My kids are well behaved (knock on wood) so I can't imagine what your DIL is dealing with.  I guess I would try supervised visits where they come with parents for dinner.  Or maybe you just have the kids for the evening while the parents go out for dinner.  Sometimes kids are better behaved when their parents aren't around.  How does the boy do in school? 

  If you have pets please, please keep them safe.  Hopefully he isn't violent towards children and animals but I agree with SK - that is not normal behavior from little boys.  And I was raised with 4 brothers who weren't sugar and spice by any means.

[whoisjohngalt]

My 1st question would be  - are you allowed to discipline them?  I think that would make a difference.

My kids have destroyed some things in my parents' house, but they are still little and were even younger then, so my parents weren't upset.  But I don't know how it will be in the future.  My 2nd kid either going to be a great scientist  or will end up in jail, so I understand the word "destruction" very well

[Tennesseer]

I guess my question to southernsusana would be:  Are you and your husband prepared for overnight visits with a 9-year-old boy with diagnosed anger issues?  They may be cherubic when asleep but they can be dangerous when awake, even in the middle of the night.

[mmhmm]

Is the boy ADHD?  Some of those kids have an additional disorder.  I think it's called Oppositional Defiance Disorder (ODD).  They can be pretty darned tough to handle, from what I've read.  I'd think he probably has a doctor who's treating his disorders.  Might be a good idea to have the DIL talk to his doctor about extended visits outside his home.  Perhaps, you could even go with her.

I have no experience with this sort of thing, but I'd wonder if the stress of being away from home (even if good stress, it's still stress) might make him more likely to act out.  I can understand your DH's concern, to tell the truth.

[Deleted]

I really don't know if they're more destructive than generations before them, (tend to think so) but it sure seems there are alot more BULLIES or MEAN SPIRITED kids.. I have 2 g'ks, 7 & 5 and are sibs, a boy and girl. I take them once a month overnight, and then like once every 2 weeks for an afternoon,...weather permitting we always hit one or two play parks in the area and I have noticed bullies over the last year. Last year I actually intervened with a complete stranger and made the large brut of a boy teenager give the smaller meek boy back his tennis shoe and told him to STOP BULLYING HIM. There were a few parents around and nobody did/said ANYTHING...maybe they weren't paying attention but that's hard for me to believe. Last week I almost intervened again only this time it was concerning a girl much bigger and several years older than my 7 yo GD.....and she got behind GD grabbed her under her arms and started walking backwards and dragging GD.. GD yelled for her to stop and called another girl she had been playing with to come help her.. Bully had dragged GD about 8 ft. when her mother (sitting in a van a few hundred feet away in the parking lot) called her (from the van) to leave. Geesh....

 I also was a Mom to 2 kids, one of each and had nothing even remotely close to what you are describing re: your GS's boxcar cutting and spray painting. It sounds quite frightening. I'm sorry your DIL has this with her son and feel for both of them. I hope they get the treatment he needs.

I've found keeping my g'kids physically/creatively/intellectually/visually stimulated while I have them makes for a nice time for all of us. But really, I can handle about 24 hrs. at this point, (55 yo), as I always have both of them at once...but I do take them both a few times a year, to our weekend cottage for the entire weekend where they can run our 3 acres and help us plant and putter, etc. Fun for all.. 

[zibazinski]

DF has two step grandkids with behavioral issues. Their bio grandmother has already forbidden them to her house. She will come to their house and baby sit, rarely. We had them over at Christmas and the two destroyed some things and terrorized the cats while their mother just sat there. I said nothing but told DF afterward they were no longer welcome here as well. We take them out and away from their mother and do things with them in short spurts of a few hours. A physical activity and then a meal. They are better SOMEWHAT when not around their mother. I'm concerned about them visiting us in Florida but DF has assured me that it will be our house and our rules.

[Miss Tequila]

Yikes, as a mom to a 14 year old and an almost 12 year old, I can assure you that at 9 years old, this is not normal "acting out".  Do you know if your DIL is getting him any help? 

As a mom, I would be petrified to have him home with my other two.  I'd be so afraid he would hurt/kill the younger ones.

[michelyn8]

I think its a combination.  Some kids truly do have problems but a lot of kids these days are not taught that they shouldn't behave in a certain way.  Lena stated that her kids have destroyed things at her parents and doesn't seem bothered because her parents weren't - I don't get that.  I would have been mortified if my children had destroyed someone else's property and it wouldn't have mattered if the other person was ok with it, I wouldn't have been and my kids would have been punished appropriately (in my book that would have been grounds for a spanking).  That's not to say that Lena doesn't and hasn't taught them the basic tenets of respecting the property of others and common courtesy but maybe just from a different point of view or tolerance level than what I grew up with and raised my children with.

I think the best approach with children is to let them know what kind of behavior you expect of them in certain situations and to follow through with appropriate consequences when they misbehave.  I tried to do this with my children and it worked more often than not.  There were times they pushed their luck and I handled that appropriately.  Eventually, they learned that if I gave them a certain look, they were pushing it and knew if they didn't stop there would be consequences.  Certain places/situations demanded certain behavior and I was a lot more strict about their behavior away from me than when I was around (no misbehaving at school - teacher has enough to do; no misbehaving at grandma's because I didn't want to listen to her , you might be able to behave a certain way with your dad but you're home now and you know my rules, etc.)

You and your husband need to set ground rules for your grandchildren and make sure you children understand them too.  Let them know what behavior is acceptable at your house and that you expect your children to back you up on it.  If they can't/won't, then visits will need to be limited.  The issue is just as much how your children are disciplining your grandkids when they misbehave at home as it is how the grandkids may or may not behave when visiting you.

ETA: I have a nephew who was ADHD as a child.  He is also a very big boy (6'5", nearly 300 as a teenager).  He gave my sister a fit when he hit puberty.  He went through some semi-destructive phases and I think my sister tried to handle him with kid gloves because of his size and temper.  But when he was around me, he was fine.  When he was at my mom's he was fine.  It was like he was a completely different person.  My sister was even stricter than I was about manners but even though I'd see him mouth back at her, if I told him to settle down or not do something, he begrudgingly did it without comment.  So remember, sometimes kids are worse for their own parents then they are with anyone else.

[whoisjohngalt]

Lena stated that her kids have destroyed things at her parents and doesn't seem bothered because her parents weren't - I don't get that.

Lena also stated that they were very young.  He was 2.5, he slammed a door too hard and broke a floor lamp - what do you suggest I should have done? 

And while I don't do spanking, I did offer to buy a lamp for my parents - they looked at me like I had 3 heads.   I very much respect other people's property, I just haven't figured out how to teach a toddler to do the same

But then again, my IL's constantly break things in my house....so it doesn't stop with children....

[busymom]

I agree with Miss T.  If this child has some sort of rage disorder, no way would I have him over when your younger grandkids are there.  I'd be afraid he'd seriously injure one of them, or worse.  I would suggest getting the name of the particular disorder he's been diagnosed with, & studying up on it.  If it's a mental health issue, hopefully he's got a regular appointment with a therapist.  Some parents are so deep in denial, that they don't get their kids the help they need.  Hopefully your grandson is getting help.

[giramomma]

Our kids know that if they misbehave at the grands' house, they'll be sent home. They only needed to be sent home once to get the picture. And, the kids do behave better for others (other relatives, school) than they behave for us.

My oldest is 9. He did break a few things in our house. But, that was from ages 3-6, and it was all stuff we could fix. Our kids also do not have any issues, though.

However, if my kids took a box cutter to a sofa, there'd be no way that I would let them go somewhere else. Mostly, because I don't have means to keep buying people new furniture, etc.

The grands also do take all three of our kids. But, the older two, 9 and 5, are pretty easy to deal with. We see the grands often, as they live close, and so there isn't the need to "entertain" the kids.

[michelyn8]

Apr 8, 2013 8:01:54 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Lena stated that her kids have destroyed things at her parents and doesn't seem bothered because her parents weren't - I don't get that.

Lena also stated that they were very young.  He was 2.5, he slammed a door too hard and broke a floor lamp - what do you suggest I should have done? 

And while I don't do spanking, I did offer to buy a lamp for my parents - they looked at me like I had 3 heads.   I very much respect other people's property, I just haven't figured out how to teach a toddler to do the same

But then again, my IL's constantly break things in my house....so it doesn't stop with children....

You only said they were little, not a toddler.  I only made my statement based on what was actually in your post. 

IMO, at 2.5 a child does have some understanding of right from wrong.  Did you make him apologize, tell him what he did was not acceptable behavior?  DGD is 16 months old and when she does something like hit the cat or throws a toy at us when we ask her to hand it to us, we tell her it was wrong and show how we expect her to behave.  There are ways to handle it.  My mother would probably have done the same if it had happened at her house and I offered to replace a broken lamp, but as she can be very passive aggressive, she would also have made "comments" about the incident to me and anyone else for years to come because I hadn't kept it from happening. 

As for your in-laws, if I remember correctly you have lots of issues with them and little support from your DH in dealing with them.  I only know that I wouldn't tolerate anyone coming into my home and breaking things but since I'm single, can set those kinds of boundaries without someone else undermining me.

[973beachbum]

Apr 7, 2013 22:50:20 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Is the boy ADHD?  Some of those kids have an additional disorder.  I think it's called Oppositional Defiance Disorder (ODD).  They can be pretty darned tough to handle, from what I've read.  I'd think he probably has a doctor who's treating his disorders.  Might be a good idea to have the DIL talk to his doctor about extended visits outside his home.  Perhaps, you could even go with her.

I have no experience with this sort of thing, but I'd wonder if the stress of being away from home (even if good stress, it's still stress) might make him more likely to act out.  I can understand your DH's concern, to tell the truth.

I have a 9 year old boy with ADHD and I can not imagine him being that distructive.  As far as the "kids today are horrible compared to the old days" think the most destructive and physically abusive person as a child I have ever met is DH's brother.  For the record he was born in the 50's.  He absolutly did things like in the OP and way worse.  DH still has the scars to prove itas he was four years younger.  Back then they didn't diagnose anything.  They just patted DH on the head and toldhim to stop "rough housing with his brother" or "boys will be boys"  type of thing.  It would have never dawned on anyone to take him to a Dr because he was beating up his brother and breaking furniture constantly, even if the beatings of his little brother included broken bones.

[doxieluvr]

Apr 8, 2013 8:01:54 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Lena stated that her kids have destroyed things at her parents and doesn't seem bothered because her parents weren't - I don't get that.

Lena also stated that they were very young.  He was 2.5, he slammed a door too hard and broke a floor lamp - what do you suggest I should have done? 

And while I don't do spanking, I did offer to buy a lamp for my parents - they looked at me like I had 3 heads.   I very much respect other people's property, I just haven't figured out how to teach a toddler to do the same

But then again, my IL's constantly break things in my house....so it doesn't stop with children....

2 year old little boys are destructive little creatures...so far in the last 12 hours, 8 of them he was asleep, mine has broke a large picture on the wall by throwing a ball. glass shattered everywhere. He has also sparked an electrical outlet in the kitchen island, causing a slight fire and frying the electric to half the kitchen.

He has been one of the worst toddlers you could imagine. He is not the relaxed little boy that my friends have. You literally have to have a hand on him at all times. He has been able to take tv remotes apart and put them back together since he was less than a year old. 

At 2 he will unscrew the seat on his power wheels to plug the battery in if we forget. Toddlers are just not the same creatures they were years ago. They do things faster then babies of yesteryear. 

[mmhmm]

Most ADHD kids aren't destructive, at all, beachbum.  ODD is a condition that sometimes presents, however, in kids with ADHD.  As I said, I don't know that much about it, but I know when ODD is present, the kids have a real problem controlling their anger and are often very destructive.  I don't think it's very common, but it does occur.  If this boy has it, he really does need special, directed handling.

From what I know about ADHD, the majority of these kids do fine with direction and, sometimes, medication.  Most will either outgrow the condition, or learn how to work with it as they get older.  ODD, however, might be a complication that makes it that much more difficult for these little folks to get it together.

[michelyn8]

Apr 8, 2013 8:40:53 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Most ADHD kids aren't destructive, at all, beachbum.  ODD is a condition that sometimes presents, however, in kids with ADHD.  As I said, I don't know that much about it, but I know when ODD is present, the kids have a real problem controlling their anger and are often very destructive.  I don't think it's very common, but it does occur.  If this boy has it, he really does need special, directed handling.

From what I know about ADHD, the majority of these kids do fine with direction and, sometimes, medication.  Most will either outgrow the condition, or learn how to work with it as they get older.  ODD, however, might be a complication that makes it that much more difficult for these little folks to get it together.

Is ODD something that comes from frustration a child with ADHD may be dealing with or is it a separate condition?  Can it be present without showing symptoms of ADHD?

Are there really more kids with these conditions or are we just more aware of them?  I never even heard of ADD/ADHD until my kids were starting school (early-mid 90's) and my sister has been a special education teacher since 1981 and came home with lots of stories of her students and their behavior.

[mmhmm]

As I said, michelyn, I don't know that much about the condition.  I'm going from memory, based on classes I took a couple of years ago (we did treat kids at the clinic, but I'm really an adult NP).  I'd have to do some research to see if ODD shows up without ADHD.  I just remembered it because it struck me how difficult it would be for a person to manage a child like this.

[mmhmm]

Here we go.  A quick look gave me this article on ODD:

American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry

[genericname]

Well, all I have is one 2 year old boy, no grandkids yet! I'm not sure if kids are more destructive nowadays - I do know that I'm told all the time how "sweet" my boy is. All because we have drilled it into his head to say "please" and "thank you" and because he is very talkative and social for a 2 year old. I do know that he goes 100 miles an hour every second he's awake. He isn't destructive in a mean way, but he's uber curious and will try every button, try to take everything apart to see inside of it, and pick up and shake everything that isn't nailed down. He has a few toy hockey sticks and drumsticks that he will bang on everything, but we have made him learn that he can hit a ball or the ground and that is all. He still hits a tabletop every now and then just to find his boundaries, but he is reprimanded when he does. He likes to wrestle with his dad and jump on his bed, what 2 year old doesn't? He does hit sometimes at daycare (very rarely), but he gets in trouble and apoligizes - I think he feels real guilt when he does. We spend a lot of time outside riding tricycles, playing tag, digging in the sandbox, and throwing balls to make sure that he gets enough exercise and playtime. 

My parents have also limited their visitation to 2 grands/great-grands at once. My neice has 3 - 2 girls and a boy. They will NOT take all 3 at once. From their perspective, the boy is being taught to be "mean". His dad is super macho and doesn't treat the kids very nicely at all. This is second hand of course, we live 1,000 miles from them. I have really only interacted in a meaningful way with the oldest, who is a 7 year old girl, but I have seen her be very manipulative to my parents. I really don't feel sorry for them, because they created this monster with the way they have treated her from the beginning and me and all of my siblings have repeatedly warned them not to enable the behavior but the feel "sorry for her". There's a huge morass of crappy family history behind that, and I won't get into it. I had the boy as a ringbearer in my wedding when he was 2 (3 years ago) and he didn't seem like a bad kid to me.

All of that to say, I think setting limits on the number of grandkids visiting is pretty normal in my world.

[973beachbum]

My youngest brother, who is now in his mid 40's, was called hyper when he was young by the Dr's.  There were lots of kids who were also diagnosed as hyper.  Some took meds but most didn't.  Some were also called, slow, difficult, different, quirky and a host of other things.  As long as they weren't skinning the neighbors cat in their free time most people just chalked it up to boys being boys and accepted that they would grow out of it eventually with with most ADD or ADHD kid they usually do.  It is nice to be able to learn to read and write before that happens though.

DH's brother who I now think had ODD as a kid, didn't appear to have any behaviors that I would associate with ADD/ADHD.  Back then if people commented at all on him they would just call him mean or say he had a bad temper. 

Eventually he did get to the point that he could just yell and scream like a maniac and to actually attack people.  He still broke things but in a slightly more controlled manner.  And to answer the usual question he did have problems holding down a job.  He stayed working for most of his adult life but it was always hard with the inevitible freak out and him leaving or them firing him because of him losing his temper and acting like a really scary mad person.

[doxieluvr]

Apr 8, 2013 9:13:17 GMT -5 genericname said:

Well, all I have is one 2 year old boy, no grandkids yet! I'm not sure if kids are more destructive nowadays - I do know that I'm told all the time how "sweet" my boy is. All because we have drilled it into his head to say "please" and "thank you" and because he is very talkative and social for a 2 year old. I do know that he goes 100 miles an hour every second he's awake. He isn't destructive in a mean way, but he's uber curious and will try every button, try to take everything apart to see inside of it, and pick up and shake everything that isn't nailed down. He has a few toy hockey sticks and drumsticks that he will bang on everything, but we have made him learn that he can hit a ball or the ground and that is all. He still hits a tabletop every now and then just to find his boundaries, but he is reprimanded when he does. He likes to wrestle with his dad and jump on his bed, what 2 year old doesn't? He does hit sometimes at daycare (very rarely), but he gets in trouble and apoligizes - I think he feels real guilt when he does. We spend a lot of time outside riding tricycles, playing tag, digging in the sandbox, and throwing balls to make sure that he gets enough exercise and playtime. 

My parents have also limited their visitation to 2 grands/great-grands at once. My neice has 3 - 2 girls and a boy. They will NOT take all 3 at once. From their perspective, the boy is being taught to be "mean". His dad is super macho and doesn't treat the kids very nicely at all. This is second hand of course, we live 1,000 miles from them. I have really only interacted in a meaningful way with the oldest, who is a 7 year old girl, but I have seen her be very manipulative to my parents. I really don't feel sorry for them, because they created this monster with the way they have treated her from the beginning and me and all of my siblings have repeatedly warned them not to enable the behavior but the feel "sorry for her". There's a huge morass of crappy family history behind that, and I won't get into it. I had the boy as a ringbearer in my wedding when he was 2 (3 years ago) and he didn't seem like a bad kid to meAll of that to say, I think setting limits on the number of grandkids visiting is pretty normal in my world.

Manners and destructive are two very different things. My two year old is very polite. But he gives active a whole new name. He just created a ramp to ride his power wheels down the small steps (4 steps). Most people won't watch him because he is so fast and you literally have to be two steps ahead of him at all times. My nephew was calm compared to my son. My friends that have sons the same age cannot believe the difference in activity and daring ness. I have talked to two pediatricians regarding the possibility of being hyper. Both agree he is just advanced. 

My parents won't keep him much at all. He was with my dad last week and managed to start his truck. 

We have to lock him in his room at night. He has proven to be a very trying child. 

[Deleted]

Yes, oppositional defiance disorder is what my oldest grandson had.  He gets very angry and frustrated, particularly at school.  He is in therapy.

I guess it's just not something I am used to, even being a teacher.  I think of how calm his father was as a child and wonder what makes them so different.  I love my grandson a lot . . . he is probably my favorite just because he's oldest and we've always done more stuff with him.  So I'm somewhat bewildered. 

[Deleted]

Susana, I'm not sure if you're talking about keeping the kids for several days, or just spending time with them? I have to admit I have no experience with that diagnosis.

You could always do something with them (something your grandson would like to do, ie a museum, or a movie, whatever) rather than "watch" them at home. That might take some of your DH's worries away, if he's concerned about your GS damaging the house. Perhaps you could try an outing first, and see how it goes?

I have to admit I'm wondering how your GS had access to spray paint and a box-cutter. Were these objects left lying around, or did he go fishing for them?

[thyme4change]

Are kids more destructive than they used to be (parents?)

I remember setting random things on fire in the gutter.  Things like paper cups and stuff.  

My theory is that no - people and kids have not changed that drastically from one generation to another.  Maybe your kids were not the type (like my sisters never set anything on fire) but your grandkid just happens to be the type.  [/span]

[giramomma]

Apr 8, 2013 10:30:05 GMT -5 @tbird said:

It is very sad and isolating when everyone withdraws from the child.  No one wants to be bothered, no one wants to have the kid over, no one wants to risk having something broken, no one wants their kids playing with that kid.

And with all that rejection, the child becomes angrier, isolated, and depressed.

I'm not sure what is accomplished by withdrawing from these children.  Maybe a few possession aren't ruined - maybe a few unpleasant scenes avoided.  However the cost to the child seems very very dear.

At the very least I would think that your grandson should be given a few opportunities to behave well in your home, and a few warnings, before he is barred.

As someone noted, kids are usually better behaved outside their parents/home situation. 

It just makes me very sad to think of this boy barred from grandmas house, when his siblings and cousins are welcome.  At least it should be due to having been given a chance, and not obeyed rules on several occasions.  And then be barred for a short period of time (6 months or so, which is a long time for a child, maybe a year if they only come a few times per year) and then given another opportunity to behave appropriately.

As this child is receiving treatment, the family should be working with that treatment rather than abandoning him.

No doubt, it's a touch choice from either side. Of course one wouldn't want to punish the kid. However, I personally couldn't give a pass to a child that trashes a sofa with a box cutter.  My concern would be what happens when the sofa doesn't do it anymore, and the kid needs emotional release by using a box cutter (or other sharp object) on something else, including something that might be living....

[Wisconsin Beth]

I guess my hope with this is that grandparents establish whatever boundaries/rules/what have you that they feel are correct for their house.  (Your house, your rules.  My house, my rules.  Assuming we're not talking abuse here.)  And I'd want my parents and ILs to communicate, clearly, what they're establishing that is different from other grandkids and why. 

My son is almost 3.5.  He's a handful.  We're working on it. 

[Phoenix84]

Aren't you a teacher?  How can handling more than 3 kids not be in your skill set?

Anyway, it seems kind of sad if you cut out the kid from your life because he has a developmental disorder.  The kid doesn't sound like a hard core criminal or anything, so I would think it would be fine with supervision.