Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Feb 7, 2011 15:46:29 GMT -5
She's been out of work since about october of 2010
What was she doing for work then?
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The Home 6
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Post by The Home 6 on Feb 7, 2011 15:47:33 GMT -5
MsGumby~sorry I am just now getting back to you! Had to refile my taxes. I wish I had some advice for you about non-financial ways to help out, besides what others have mentioned about having MIL live with you. DH has been sending money to my MIL monthly for YEARS, and I have started to dread phone calls...especially around tax return time, because it always seems like they need something else. Although, have you considered giving gift certificates to their local grocery stores? At least that way you know where your money is going to, not just handing over cash.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Feb 7, 2011 15:55:20 GMT -5
Msgumby, it sounds as if you thinking about the degree in the right way. It will have no impact on her if there are not jobs available or if you think there are things about her (presentation, age, competence) that will hurt her chances of being employed.
In an earlier post, you mentioned that completing the degree might be difficult and that you were prepared to help. That is a big warning sign to me. If you think that the degree will be very difficult to her, it may cause problems even if she does finish. Employers hesitate to hire older workers at times. If she does not seem to have a good grasp on the material needed for employment, it may be near impossible for her to find a job. Fair or not, she may be held to a higher standard than other employees.
Loans for this education should be completely out of the question as Social Security payments can be garnished partially to collect on student loan debt. I imagine the SS payments will be the real savior in provider her at least some independence (and you some breathing room) in the near future.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 7, 2011 15:56:54 GMT -5
Okay, she really needs to go to a technical/trade school that will give her a fast track into a job. To float for a year or two in a college life is not a good plan for her at her age. I agree, sounds like she will need to move anyway so best to do it now.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Feb 7, 2011 16:06:52 GMT -5
She needs to work even if it is minimum wage and she has to walk to work. If she can't support herself and her child she needs to make other plans. Since she is low income with a minor child she can get food stamps and the child can get free lunch. She owns land so she can live in a trailer on the land or in town in a small apartment. A prepaid cell phone and a power bill should be about the only bills in a small apartment. She should be able to support her family even on a low income job and a second job on weekends even if it is babysitting on Friday nights.
I would have your DH tell her this was the last time you can afford to help. When she begs again you can have him tell her he will see if he can come up with something and he will call her back. Then you two can decide what the conditions are like her moving so it never happens again.
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msgumby
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Post by msgumby on Feb 7, 2011 16:19:58 GMT -5
It's hard to say about jobs in her area. She is convinced there will be some, but I am a lot less certain. It really does limit the opportunities, but I have been hoping that by the time she is done with the degree, she will be amenable to applying in more than one area in hopes of increasing the prospect of getting a job. The real problem, is they recently moved to this spot, which has always been her long-term plan for a place to live. She is convinced that my SIL will get a better education at the local school (although it's super tiny) and that because she doesn't have to pay for the land, she can make pennies and survive there without needing permanent help. She is convinced that if she moved out to our much higher COL area, she would never be able to be independant. It is a much higher COL area, and she could never afford a home out here, but she could always rent at some point. She doesn't see this as a good long-term idea. We always assumed when she got old enough and couldn't support herself, she would have no other choice than to come live with us, but this happened when she was still young enough to be able to work. I will talk with my husband to make sure he's discussed her degree program choice relative to opportunities and that there are no better trade/technical options in the area.
Before getting laid off, she worked as an assistant in a medical office. They kept her on with reduced hours to avoid giving her any benefits and paid her well below fair price given her duties and performance.
I'm hesitant to give gift certificates because she did recently qualify for food stamps and a few other assistance programs, which should cover a lot of those things. I have thought about gas cards, but it seems like the problems are more the larger unexpected expenses versus her smaller normal living expenses.
Her tuition should be covered by grants (no loans required), but she has been offered some government loans as well. She wants to take those out to help cover her living expenses (and not rely on us as much). I have warned her repeatedly that she can't discharge those in bankruptcy, etc... but I'm not certain what she will decide. I would be amazed if social security amounted to much for her, because she has never made much money, but it would at least be something.
On the education front - the classes we are worried about are a few GE requirements that she had left. It's been a long time since she was in school, and while she is bright, she isn't used to what is being asked of her. I helped her out on her first homework assignment, and she seems capable of learning the material, but like she will need extra help throughout. We will see how it progresses though.
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bobosensei
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Post by bobosensei on Feb 7, 2011 16:20:12 GMT -5
My dad died when I was 14. My mom was able to live on the ssi she received for us plus insurance money until I left the house at 18. That same year my brother turned 16 and the money was drastically reduced. Mom had spent most of the money she had and in 2 short years when my brother left the house she would be left with nothing. So in her late 50s she went to community college. This only ended up lasting a year, and then she ended up taking a string of crappy jobs before going back to doing hair which is what she did when she was in her early 20s.
So to make a long story short, I agree with the posters that think that MIL may not really be able to finish the degree. For my mom, even though she studied hard and tried, she just isn't school material. In the end doing a trade that she enjoyed is what allowed her to earn a living.
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msgumby
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Post by msgumby on Feb 7, 2011 16:28:21 GMT -5
cronewitch - it is virtually impossible for her to walk anywhere where she lives. She lives in the complete middle of nowhere, with no public transportation options. She is recently getting food stamps and does live on a trailer on her plot of land, making her living expenses quite low. We added her to our cell phone plan (it was only 8 dollars a month and she was isolating herself and not talking to people for fear of not being able to buy more minutes when she had a pre-paid cell).
She's only really had minimum wage-type jobs her whole life and is getting old enough where those are hard for her to obtain. I'm not certain that it's even much of an option these days. She's sold off everything that she can, but really didn't have much to sell to start with. If we were just paying her basic living expenses, it wouldn't be so bad. But it seems like they've had a ton of emergencies recently. This may just be a bad time and calm down, but I'm worried that it won't. They had been living off of about 10k/year and barely making ends meet on that. At this point, I'm not sure she can find minimum wage work.
The only non-necessities we can't get her to part with are cigarettes (don't get me started on that one) and a basic cable plan (which we are paying for her at 20/month). We've hopefully straigtened out the life insurance money-pit, but if not, we have decided we will put our feet down on her cancelling that.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Feb 7, 2011 16:32:31 GMT -5
Msgumby, was she married to her last husband for more than ten years? If so, she would be eligible for Social Security benefits based on his wage history if it is greater than the benefit she would receive from her own work history.
The advice Crone is giving looks like the best for your situation. If she focused more on cutting her expenses and finding some minimum wage or near minimum wage work, a mix of the work and benefits could cover her expenses. After she is 62, she is eligible for Social Security (then SSI at 65) which combined put most seniors at least near poverty level income ($700 - $900) a month.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Feb 7, 2011 16:34:36 GMT -5
Oops! It looks like expenses are already at a minimum.
I really do think that school is a bad idea, particularly anything that even potentially cut into SS, which may not be much but will be her main source of independent income in old age.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 7, 2011 16:35:24 GMT -5
Holy crap, her being in mid 50's, having a 9 yr old and no real profession - I see you sending her TONS of money now and later.
Lena
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msgumby
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Post by msgumby on Feb 7, 2011 16:42:29 GMT -5
Her ex-husband was pretty much an unemployed drunk their whole marriage. They were married more than 10 years, but I doubt that will help at all.
whoisjohngalt - yeah, the problem really is the 9 year old. It's hard to not help when there is a child involved. It's one thing to cut off an adult, but when there is still a child depending on that adult, it's a lot harder to actually cut the person off. She did raise my husband under similar circumstances, but it was when she was much younger and at least had a job. The children are 20 years apart, which means she's basically been a single mother the majority of her life and makes it hard to not sympathize with her struggles.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 7, 2011 16:51:35 GMT -5
I see a lot of older workers even women working at a lot of places so they are getting hired even if it is at minimum wage. Sorry she needs a reality check and that includes moving (and being grateful that her son and DIL are willing to take her in) and getting a job. You can be a good example to your SIL.
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Post by honeybunny66 on Feb 7, 2011 16:53:32 GMT -5
This may go against every YM rule but my mother is in our annual budget. My husband and I agreed on a set amount and we send it to my mom every month. As a result, we are not asked to help with any other emergencies. I hear about other siblings not helping as much but I never get a request for more money. I also have friends who pay their relative's monthly rent in the projects. Their reasoning is that they would rather pay the $50-100 a month than have that relative (and bad-A kids) come to live with them. It's all in the priorities.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 7, 2011 17:11:41 GMT -5
That only works if the relative understands that that monthly allowance is IT.
We also had our IL's on our annual budget, but it never stopped them from calling with all kinds of other requests. I finally told my DH that instead of sending money to them, (since they will spend every penny that goes into their hands), I will put aside X every month as their EF.
Reading all OP's posts, I can see a lot of those "emergency" phone calls in her future.
Lena
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Feb 7, 2011 18:59:30 GMT -5
Can you and would you like to take the 9 year old for the summer? This would save her being home alone while her mom works and you can be sure she is eating. Then you can send her back with school supplies and clothes for the winter months. Then you are helping the child, relieving the mom's budget some but not taking on a regular budget expense.
Maybe the mom can get a new boyfriend or other roommate to pay her to live in the trailer with them.
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msgumby
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Post by msgumby on Feb 7, 2011 19:25:18 GMT -5
cronewitch - taking our SIL for the summer is a good idea, but I have a feeling it won't fly (especially if she is still unemployed then). Both my husband and I have jobs, so it would be hard to argue that it would save her being alone, when we would just need to put her in camps and other activities for the summer. We also tried having her come out for a month last summer, and MIL wouldn't allow it (this was pre-emergencies though). We negotiated down to a week, but it still never happened. We were willing to pay all costs, but MIL was too worried about having her fly out alone. I will talk to my husband about if we can offer to take her in this upcoming summer, and I know he would love to have her out here, but we will see if MIL will agree to it. But it may be easier to get the SIL out for a shorter period of time and we could send her back with "presents" of school supplies and clothes and stuff like that.
I don't trust the MIL to pick a new boyfriend - that would be more likely to bring in an abusive, non-contributor than it would bring in someone who can help. The roommate is an interesting idea, but I would be amazed anyone would be stupid enough to rent out a room in their place. They have a very small trailer (2 very tiny bedrooms) and they live in the middle of nowhere, where you can buy a house on a plot of land for next to nothing, so someone would have to be pretty stupid to pay any significant amount of money to live with them.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 7, 2011 19:31:37 GMT -5
UGH!!! What a mess. I feel for you.
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lajes
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Post by lajes on Feb 7, 2011 21:02:09 GMT -5
Okay -- just my two cents.
I helped my own Mother out for ten years and it nearly caused me and DH of 25 years to file bankruptcy and divorce. There were always "emergencies" and we seemed to be giving her more $ then we could afford and finally she moved in with us for 8 years. Moving her in with us was the worst mistake I ever made. Don't get me wrong -- I love my mother and I was raised in an Italian culture where the "generations help each other."
The stress was worse because all her problems now lived under my roof and I didn't have a "place to call my own" to escape. It wasn't just money anymore, but time and emotions.
The best way I can describe it is to quote Suze Orman --" You don't have financial problems -- you have life problems." I am not a big fan of Suze, but the first time I heard her say it, I knew it pertained to me.
I am reading your posts and I see you giving up what you want (a savings to have a baby) and it makes me upset that you are in this position. You should help your family, but it should come with limits.
My advice:
1. Don't offer your home as a place for her -- it's your home and you deserve to have peace. 2. Be very clear in the $ amount you are willing to give her (be it monthly, yearly or emergencies)-- no matter what -- and stick to it. 3. Be generous with your SIL -- she is a child -- help her in anyway you can without giving $ to MIL. 4. Be understanding to your DH, but don't give away your life to his family -- I wish my DH had not been so understanding and willing to help -- I needed him to place boundaries on the situation because, obviously, I could not.
I hope this helps -- not all situations are the same, but looking back, I wish I had done things differently.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 7, 2011 21:26:27 GMT -5
Interesting perspective.
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sunuva
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Post by sunuva on Feb 8, 2011 11:18:04 GMT -5
I am in a similar situation - similar but not the same.
My wife's family (my in-laws) are the issue - her sister's family and to a somewhat lesser extent her mom. At times her sister is hard up for grocery money and my wife will give her a few hundred bucks at a time for groceries and bills. Like most of us, we are a product of our up-bringing and our relationships and attitutdes towards family members (direct and in-laws) are probably shaped by our years of upbringing. So I acquiesce to the limited support of her family.
We have had the "talk." And it was me that had to intiate the talk. We do not sacrifice our family's financial wellbeing such that we now have two families in dire straits. So our children's education fund is funded, our retirement funds are funded, our bills are paid-in-full. The money proferred to her sister essentially comes from our "discretionary spending" which may be the same as your "savings account" but for us it comes more from our "vacation spending" account. My wife loves to travel to faraway places - moreso than me. I am content with vacationing locally doing the camping/hiking/back-country thing. So the more money that goes out the door the less we - as a family - can go vacationing to faraway places.
Once everything is put into perspective, my wife has been able to assuage feelings of guilt by focusing on our family first. Her sister is still her family, I realize that, but we also are a family - and she is completely aware of that.
Coming from the outside (of the family) I allow her to phrase things, as necessary, regarding me as the bad guy when moneys handed over are strained. It's an easy deflection measure, and I am totally okay with it since I'm no more a fan of her family than she is of mine. Keep our visits short - that type of thing.
I think it has been an adequate compromise even though it puts a lot of pressure on my wife having to decide, for herself, whether to save up for a much-desired-far-away-family-vacation or to put that off for a while while some moneys get funneled to her sister (my wife doesn't handle that kind of decision-making very well). But at the end of the day I will be at times labeled the bad guy and I am totally fine with that (I've also been known to utter the phrase around her parents as me being "the bad son-in-law" when I won't sacrifice weekends and evenings doing manual labour to assist her parents with whatever do-it-yourself home project they are involved with). I'm not entirely sure if you are comfortable having the big shoulders and having to carry around that label - but it certainly can make decisions regarding extended family (in-laws) a lot easier.
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msgumby
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Post by msgumby on Feb 8, 2011 11:57:06 GMT -5
Thank you for the new perspectives from people who have dealt with this situation. It is a tricky place to be in, and it's really useful to see how others have handled it.
lajes - I'm sorry to hear about the strain this placed on your family and am hoping to avoid a situation like that. I think it would take a lot to get us to the point of bankruptcy and I'm fairly confident we would be able to cut her off well before then. I do feel like I am giving up what I want, which can be frustrating at times, but also I think at this point I would feel worse if I didn't make an attempt to help for a little longer. I think part of my frustration stems from such a compulsion to save, that not saving money (at least for our short-term goals) freaks me out more than it comes from us actually needing the money. That's part of why the situation is hard. Helping won't drive us to bankruptcy and (probably) won't have much of an impact so long as it's relatively short-term. I do agree that starting to establish some limits is probably a good idea, and we just need to figure out what those are for us. I'm also still hopeful that after the divorce settles down and her benefits are fully kicked in, she will need less support and that should still allow us to continue saving for our short-term goals. Of course, if the emergencies continue, we will have to re-evaluate how we are handling things.
sunuva - at this point, I'm probably not ready to be the bad-guy in this. Maybe with time that will be more comfortable with me. One key difference is that I do have a good relationship with his family and genuinely enjoy being around them. We are also, not yet at the point of sacrificing our families wellbeing, because we really can afford to help in the short term. I do think these are a lot of good things to keep in mind if this does continue on and we really do start having to put in more boundaries.
Also - I do have a bit of an update (for anyone who is interested). She canceled "most" of her life insurance, but it still paying about 100-150/month on a few term life insurance products. I was able to speak with her last night to try to convince her to cancel them, but I'm not certain if she will be willing to part with these last few plans. 2 of them expire in the next year, and after that she will likely be too old/not healthy enough to get more plans. The added bonus was that I found out she (still) hasn't obtained medical insurance for herself (SIL is covered by the government currently). I don't know why she is convinced life insurance is better for her than medical insurance, but I spent a good hour explaining the pros/cons of life insurance. I went through the whole line that life insurance is meant to "replace" the bread-winner and to avoid extra strain on the family after a death. But in this case, we can easily "replace" her monetary value to the family until SIL is an adult. I think she views it more like a lottery we will win after she dies, which really isn't helpful. Anyone have good articles they can point me to on why she doesn't need life insurance at this point?
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reader79
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Post by reader79 on Feb 8, 2011 12:05:20 GMT -5
"Anyone have good articles they can point me to on why she doesn't need life insurance at this point?"
How about it gets cancelled because you - not her - are paying for it?!? Any money that you give her for 'emergencies' allows her to squander her own income on crap like that.
Also, you mention her benefits kicking in after the divorce settles, they - the government, I assume?, will subtract from that number whatever regular assistance she is receiving from family. If you continue to help out, you may find that it is now obligated. The city wanted my mother to hand over her bank account information to ensure that she continued with her ~$400/month assistance for my sister's rent. That was a wake-up call.
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reader79
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Post by reader79 on Feb 8, 2011 12:07:54 GMT -5
This brings back memories of sitting in the financial aid office at NYU, and watching the lady pull up her notes from last semester. She said that it appeared that my grandmother had paid about $1200 of that bill, and wouldn't I like to give her a call about this current one?
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msgumby
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Post by msgumby on Feb 8, 2011 12:13:41 GMT -5
I'm a bit worried that she would stop eating so that she could have life insurance. Last night was the first time I had spoken with her directly about the life insurance issue (before it was through my husband) and she seemed convinced she would die soon and leave us nothing. I think part of it is she sees her only way to pay us back the money we have given her would be through this life insurance. I insisted that we not loan her the money (because realistically she would have no chance of paying it back) and give it as an outright gift. I got the distinct impression that she wants us to have the money from her life insurance because of this. I repeatidly told her that we don't want her life insurance money, and it really wouldn't be that much relative to our salaries (and that she can't afford it), but i'm worried that the message didn't get fully through and she will continue to pay it without telling us.
That's good to keep in mind about the governement benefits. We have been generally trying to pay the vendors (auto mechanic, divorce attorney) directly to avoid establishing that we are helping her pay her normal bills. We also never give her money directly to her bank account, so hopefully that will help as well. The benefits kicked in a month or two ago, and weren't related to the divorce itself (just timing were at about the same time). And we intially did notice a drop in requests, but her divorce attorney came back with a huge bill.
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Post by bobbysgirl on Feb 8, 2011 12:48:05 GMT -5
I would begin thinking outside of the box. Help comes in all forms.
Welfare is for short term difficult times. Can she be accepted on this program? If so, they will pay for an education to get her off welfare. Also health insurance is covered. I am only going on the things I learned on this board, but you can help her get the paperwork together. I am assuming there's no Unemployment insurance.
DH can visit for a couple of days to look over the situation to make a more educated decision.
GCs for groceries can be sent each month. She can go to the local food pantry also. Food stamps are another choice.
Knowledge is powerful, but sometimes uneducated people are afraid they aren't smart enough to get it. Build her confidence and teach her with patience about budgeting. The simplest things are not thought of by people who are afraid.
Be kind, yet firm with any decisions you and DH come up with.
This brings to mind something we did years ago. We paid for my father in laws burial when his mom asked. (4000) No questions, just said if that's what you need. After she went through all of the insurance money he left, she told my SIL that we and everyone else took money from her. I racked it up to the mourning process, but never gave a relative money again.
I still love her and am respectful and kind, but no money.
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msgumby
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Post by msgumby on Feb 8, 2011 12:56:25 GMT -5
bobbysgirl - she is on unemployment now and doesn't qualify for welfare. It took a while to kick in, but just started coming in. She had been getting foodstamps in the meantime, but now they will be reduced significantly because of the unemployment coming in. Her tuition is currently being covered by grants (i think federal pell grants), so that should be free as well. I do think that while she's not afraid she's not smart, she's convinced she's not smart. She is actually quite intelligent (at least in my opinion) but has really low self esteem. My personal theory (which I've only discussed with the aunt) is that she was molested as a child. She consistently picks abusive partners and has been getting better over time. The aunt had never thought about it this way, but said it actually made since and could explain some abrupt/odd behavior of hers in high school. I think this has caused her to devalue herself, and my husband and I always try to make sure she knows we think highly of her. Her most recent ex-husband would always put her down and say things about how stupid she was, and we would never let him get away with it. However, years of this can be really damaging to your self worth. Her second week of school appears to be going better than her first (she was able to handle all of her homework without help). So, we will see how this goes...
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msgumby
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Post by msgumby on Feb 8, 2011 13:02:24 GMT -5
Well, i have an interesting update. My husband just got off the phone with her to arrange payment for her divorce attorney, and it appears he mis-understood their conversation this weekend. She was just telling him about the extra fees and not asking him to pay them (he just assumed). I'm not certain if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but for now she doesn't want us to pay the 3k for the lawyer. She had been offered a small amount (about 5k) of subsidized student loans. She had not decided if she was going to accept them, but apparently went in and took them out yesterday to pay off the lawyer and have a bit of extra cash on hand. We'll see how this plays out - I'm not really convinced of her ability to pay these back ever...
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 8, 2011 13:06:38 GMT -5
The lawyer would have taken payments as well.
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msgumby
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Post by msgumby on Feb 8, 2011 13:09:08 GMT -5
she hasn't officially paid the lawyer yet. my husband talked to her today and suggested she try to negotiate down the lawyer fees and discuss payment plans before sending a check. i just hope this student loan doesn't cause more trouble down the line. Normally I'm a big fan of government subsidized student loans, but given her age and employment possibilites, I'm not convinced that she will be able to pay the 5k back.
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