MIL reducing our savings

[msgumby]

I'm a long time lurker, but my husband and I are generally good with money so I never had much of a need for help. However, recently, I've been bothered by an issue and can use some outside perspective.

A bit of background is that my husband and I make good enough money to have no non-mortgage debt and fully fund 401ks and roth IRAs in addition to saving a significant sum of money every year. We recently bought our first house and bought well within the range we can afford. We are both frugal and rarely disagree about money. My husband's mother (whom I love dearly) recently has been having a lot of financial trouble and we've been helping her out. She recently got laid off, needed money to have her car fixed, and needed helping funding her divorce. We are still able to fund our retirement accounts and have not dipped into our savings, but over the past few months our savings rate has dropped to nearly zero helping her out. I know if I told my husband we should stop helping her, he would side with me and put out family first, but I feel terrible asking him that.

My husband was brought up by a single mother working crappy jobs, barely making ends meet with no child support. His dead-beat father owes many hundreds of thousands of dollars in child support, but never holds down a job long enough for anyone to collect. My mother-in-law remarried and had a child with another husband about 10 years ago. Her recent husband has become verbally abusive and is a bipolar alcoholic (with a number of DUIs which he manages to bribe his way out of). Because of this, it was important that my mother-in-law get full custody in the divorce, and we were willing to cover the cost of a good-enough lawyer to ensure that her ex wouldn't get unsupervised visits. It's hard for me to not want to sympathize and help out as much as we can, but I'm also uncomfortable not saving as much money as I would like. We are able to live comfortably, but not reach all of our savings goals with the extra expenses of supporting his mother and half-sister. However, I feel terrible and selfish to cut her off when we technically can afford it. And there is a child to worry about in this situation as well.

Other family members have contributed a bit of money as well, but none are in a position to do much. They have applied for government assistance, but it just doesn't seem to be enough - especially because a number of emergencies have popped up recently.

I'm not really certain what I'm looking for. I partially just need to vent and partially want advice on when enough is enough. My husband knows this situation is frustrating me, but I have told him we will do what he feels comfortable with in terms of support for his mom and sister. At what point do I decide that's no longer acceptable?

[Opti]

"We are still able to fund our retirement accounts and have not dipped into our savings, but over the past few months our savings rate has dropped to nearly zero helping her out."

This confuses me. You are still saving towards retirement but your savings rate has dropped nearly to zero?

"We are able to live comfortably, but not reach all of our savings goals with the extra expenses of supporting his mother and half-sister. However, I feel terrible and selfish to cut her off when we technically can afford it. And there is a child to worry about in this situation as well."

"At what point do I decide that's no longer acceptable? "

Its worrisome to me that per your own post its only been a few months but
you already are worried more about yourself than your husband's Mom and half-sister. You can decide its unacceptable at any time, it sounds like you've already talked your self into your life is spiraling out of control just because you haven't been able to save as much as you'd like for a few months.

I hope it is the major expenses in a short time your house and funding her divorce which is shorting out your compassion for the time being. Focus on stabilizing their situation by any means necessary and get them to a level that
your husband is comfortable they will be OK at. It hasn't been years so given you are able to live comfortably it seems awful early for you to be so frustrated
unless you've left something out in addition to the numbers behind this story.

[The Home 6]

Indeed, Snerdley. You are 100% right. OP can help out her MIL without destroying her financial future.

OP~your post could have been written by me (except for the part about the fully funded 401(k)s). May I give you a word of encouragement? You seem to be genuinely concerned about your mother-in-law, and your young sister-in-law's welfare, and that is to be commended. I think that you should sit down with your husband, tell him that you still want to be saving money in the retirement accounts, but you are willing to help out his family in their time of need. However, if it starts getting crazy (like sending money every month, just because), you need to revisit the issue.

Please, PLEASE, sit down with your husband and talk to him. You are the only one who can make him understand at what point enough is enough for you. And you have to decide when enough is enough. We can't make that call for you.

[zibazinski]

How about helping out in other ways like having them stay with you while MIL goes to school to get a decent paying career? It COSTS a couple of bedrooms. She makes bad choices and others suffer like your DH and now your SIL. I understand your DH and you don't want her to suffer but you can't "fix" with money whatever causes her to make bad choices. I'd stop the money and offer shelter and tuition for a period of time.

[zibazinski]

Or raise SIL for awhile until your MIL can get it together. She isn't going to as long as others bail her out.

[whoisjohngalt]

Two things you should know about me before you read my response:

1. I am the biggest proponent of the idea that family should help family
2. I am very angry and resentful of my IL's, who pissed away money all their lives and now we are suppose to be helping them.

That being said, it sounds your MIL is in bad financial situation due to "life" vs bad choices (unless I am reading something wrong). I COMPLETELY get how it can get "old" helping out, but your MIL is probably hurting more than just financially, having to go through second divorce, facing the life of yet another "single motherhood", so I think turning your back on her now would not be right.

At what point it's no longer acceptable? Well, we all have our limits, for ME, it would be when the person starts taking it for granted and not wanting to help themselves. But it doesn't sound like your MIL is that kind of person, so for now, I would help.

Lena

[msgumby]

A few responses (I wrote this late last night and probably wasn't as clear as I could have been).

We are fully funding our retirement accounts (it is automatically deducted from our paycheck), but have been unable to save any money in addition to that. We have a number of things we are targeting saving (with goals set) that are no longer being funded at all. Of these, the main one that concerns me is the fund I started for us starting a family. We have been trying to conceive for a while, and have a fund set aside for birth and related costs that is no longer being funded. While it's not an issue yet, it seems like every month has more and more costs. There are a number of other funds (house repair and other similar things) that are no longer being funded. While it's only been about 5 months, it's cost nearly 10k and we just found out about another 3k worth of expenses last night, which was the driving point for my post. I'm mostly worried that while she's not intentionally trying to take advantage of us, each time she asks for money, it gets easier for her. Both my husband and I are very frugal and have always saved a lot, and it's just uncomfortable for me no longer being able to reach any of our non-retirement savings goals. We did not realize how much money we would be providing (as her annual expenses normally are around 10k total) due to recent emergencies.

We have offered to have either my mother-in-law or sister-in-law to live with us (we have room for them), but his mother-in-law refused. They live in a different state, with a much lower cost of living, and she doesn't want to uproot everyone and is convinced she will be unable to find a job to support herself with the higher cost of living. Right now they have a plot of land she owns outright (which is virtually worthless), but at least provides potential that when she gets a job, they could live off a lower paying job where she lives now. We have been doing everything to encourage her to get back to school because she has only had horrible jobs in her life. She did recently enroll, and we have been trying to encourage her to better herself.

I'm concerned about talking with my husband too much about this before I've really decided my feelings because I don't want to react poorly to the news last night and make decisions I will regret later. As I said, he would do what I asked, and I just don't know my feelings well enough to know if I want to ask something. I'm just starting to reach my point of being frustrated with the amount of unexpected expenses coming.

[gs11rmb]

I'd keep helping as well. Your MIL sounds like a decent person who has worked hard all her life at low paid jobs. She does not sound lazy and ungrateful at all. If I am reading your post correctly you are continuing to fully fund your retirement but the additional savings rate has dropped. I imagine this is only a temporary situation until your MIL is back on her feet. Good luck to you and your in-laws.

[Urban Chicago]

I too would keep helping, but I would sit down, first with DH, then with both him and MIL, and tell them what you will and won't be willing to do. (Like you'll help with once-in-a while emergencies like car repairs, but not with regular monthly expenses, or whatever you decide). It sounds like your MIL will understand.

At this time, I think you can afford to do both, even if that means delaying home repairs for a while.

I know this will seem strange, but how about asking her to come live with you AFTER you have a child. She could technically be a babysitter and would be helping you out, which may save her pride enough to agree.

[msgumby]

I will think over a way of offering her to stay with us once we have a child, but my gut says she would still refuse. She had her most recent child later in life, and I know she found she did not have the energy she did the first time around. But depending on how we phrase it, that does have better potential.

We also always realized that at some point we would likely support her, but we thought that it wouldn't happen for another 20 or so years and when we did factor into account supporting her, we didn't budget high enough I guess.

After sleeping on it, I'm more inclined to just let things go and pay the most recent set of expenses. I just couldn't sleep last night and felt terrible about resenting helping her out.

[Gardening Grandma]

We are able to live comfortably, but not reach all of our savings goals with the extra expenses of supporting his mother and half-sister. However, I feel terrible and selfish to cut her off when we technically can afford it. And there is a child to worry about in this situation as well.

You DO sound conflicted. I'm guessing that the daughter is 9 or 10? I have a similar situation (I've posted about it on another thread) where it's MY relative who needs a hand. So in this case I tend to identify with your DH. If you were struggling yourselves my advice would be different. But it appears that you ARE continuing to save - just not as much as you want. Is that correct?

If so, I'd really, really think about what my priorities are. Family IS family. Deadbeat moochers are one issue, but from your post, that is not the case here. Divorce is devastating financially and emotionally and even more so when children are involved. It's only been a few months. I'd relax my savings goal for a year and reassess then.

PS - just realized that we were posting at the same time. This board is a great place to vent.

[zibazinski]

If she is going to school (and a short term training school for a viable job) then I think helping out is fine but I have issues with someone who keeps asking for money "because it gets easier each time." A fair amount of us went through divorces and financial issues and didn't ask anyone for a dime. All the more reason for you to take SIL as MIL needs to focus on her life and get it in order.

[Peace77]

Do you have at least 6 months worth of expenses in an Emergency Fund?

I agree with the previous poster that said it seems to be a temporary situation and not a string of bad choices.

I would help her as much as you can without dipping into your Emergency Fund. If it comes to that, then discuss it with your husband.

[Opti]

"We have offered to have either my mother-in-law or sister-in-law to live with us (we have room for them), but his mother-in-law refused. They live in a different state, with a much lower cost of living, and she doesn't want to uproot everyone and is convinced she will be unable to find a job to support herself with the higher cost of living. Right now they have a plot of land she owns outright (which is virtually worthless), but at least provides potential that when she gets a job, they could live off a lower paying job where she lives now. We have been doing everything to encourage her to get back to school because she has only had horrible jobs in her life. She did recently enroll, and we have been trying to encourage her to better herself."

I think you need to talk to your husband now. Decide how long you both are willing to support her on her own and when you want to pull the plug unless they come to live with you. I do think giving MIL a window of time to become
self sufficient and a deadline for you might be helpful. I'm guessing if they lived
with you it would be much less financially draining.

Good luck, sorry about the recent $3K.

[msgumby]

It's recently been mostly life, but she has also made many poor financial decisions over the years that have come to light as a result of this situation. When my husband was helping her with her revised unemployment budget, he realized she had been paying over 1/4 of her gross income to a ridiculous life insurance policy. It seems she views this as our inheritance, and it's taken many hours to convince her to cancel it (although we are 100% certain she has actually cancelled it). My husband has also sent her money through over the years, although it's never been as significant as it is now. However, this is also the first time he's had an actual job and not been in college, so it's the first time he's had real money to send back home.

We have a more than acceptable emergancy fund, and have not dipped into that. This is part of why it's so frustrating. We really can afford to support her without question, but I'm starting to worry about at what point she stops minding the support as much. While she is working on trying to get back on her feet, she has never really been able to fully support herself (although without her now ex-husband I think she will have a better chance). Part of me is worried this will become the new norm and starting to realize we may have to start saying no at some point.

My philosophy has been that while it's our money, it's his mother and I wouldn't want to stand in the way of him helping her out when she needs it. I would never pick a husband who wouldn't treat his mother well and help her when needed. Also, we've always assumed that at some point she would no longer be able to support herself and would likely have to come live with us. However, that was assumed to be a ways in the future when we were further along in life and our own savings goals. It's hard for us to sit down and pick a cut-off point where we stop helping, because of his young sister (you were correct - she is 9). And it seems that her regular expenses are not the issue, but large emergencies that have been cropping up. The first few were fine, but they never seem to stop. I know my husband has been frustrated not reaching our savings goals as well, but it's hard to decide when to stop when we technically can help. I'm also somewhat worried about putting a time limit on it because ideally she would get a better education so that she could get a better job down the line, which will take time. But you are correct that it would be significantly easier on us if she lived with us. Part of me also feels like it's hard to give her deadlines and cut-offs because she's the parent and we are the "children" in this situation. It feels like it would be degrading to give conditions on the help we were providing.

As a compulsive saver, it gets frustrated keeping our goals on hold and making extra cuts without really seeing the reward. But I guess the reward is that we haven't had to dip into our savings at this point.

[msgumby]

There was a typo in my last response - we AREN'T 100% certain she has canceled the life insurance policy.

[msgumby]

Also - The Home 6, have you found other (non-financial) ways of supporting and helping that have been useful? It feels like just sending money won't be enough to turn the situation around. Like I said, I'm worried about this becoming the new norm and any advice you can provide on things to do to help besides just writing checks would be great.

[whoisjohngalt]

Msgumby, I hope my DH never reads your posts, bc he will me in a second and will want to marry you - your outlook on this is very similar to his.

Anywhooo, why don't you ask your MIL what exactly is her plan and how much SHE thinks she will need in a near future. This might accomplish two things 1) might make her to step back and look at her finances more closely and 2) give you and your DH an idea of how used to she is getting to receiving money from you.

You sound like a very very very nice and kind and respectful person and seriously, I hope both, your DH and your MIL recognize and appreciate that.

Lena

[msgumby]

whoisjohngalt - I could have my husband discuss her revised budget a bit more with her. When this origonally happened, he went through her budget with her and figured out (roughly) how much money she would need each month. There would be extra until unemployment kicked it, but after that plus the other government benefits she would start recieving, it looked to be about 500/month max. Then her car needed new tires, then had some engine problems, her water heater went out, her divorce attorney needed more money, etc... Fast foward 5 months and 13k and we are at today. None of these are things she had planned for or thought she needed. It also makes it hard to cut-off because there are no more of these expected to show up in the near future. A number of her benefits kicked in recently, which is why the 3k was a bit of a shock to hear about last night.

Also, it can be hard to have my husband talk with his mother about this, because he HATES talking about things like this (especially to his mother). I will tell him to speak with her about something important, and then overhear a 2-second conversation where he would just ask a single question. I have had some sucess having my husbands aunt (MIL's sister) speak with her about some things and I could see if she can offer to help review her budget and upcoming expenses. It can be a good way to check on if she's actually cancelled the horrible life insurance policy without directly asking again as well...

[stats45]

Ziba has a good point about the school aspect.

Make sure that if she decides to do school that it is a short-term vocational or technical program that leads to a job. Otherwise, it can be a waste of time and money that may just provide another disincentive to working and trying to adjust her standard of living accordingly.

[8 Bit WWBG]

I know this is a tough issue and someone always comes out with what appears to be the short-end of the stick. On the one hand, you CAN support them (which some people, usually the ones who need support, take to mean as 'you SHOULD').

On the other hand, it sounds like there is always going to be "something" and the more comfortable she is taking the help, the more she will expect you to keep helping.

However I think you are on a sensible course. You aren't "hurting" yourselves, and haven't had to use your EF. Give it a little more time, and if things hit the danger zone or things haven't improved, then its time to reevaluate the situation.

[zibazinski]

Well, good luck and I am sorry for you. You may be the "children" in this case but "parents" don't ask their "children" for money and anyone that gives money to anyone usually has strings attached to it, just ask my kids!!! So who would she "borrow" from if she didn't have you to call? Other family members who have now stopped giving?

[msgumby]

Thanks for the encouragement. I do hope that more time will help.

On the education front, she had started a degree a long time ago, and it looks like she can spend about a year or so finishing that up. I've heard this mostly second-hand from my husband, but it sounds like she could complete a bachelors in computer science or something similar in that time. I'm not certain if that will get her tons of job openings, but it seemed like the easiest path to completing a degree and opening a few more doors. If you think there would be a better way to do this, let me know.

zibazinski - there is really nobody else who is in a position to help. It seems like the mentality on that side of the family is you work at a crappy job until you die, barely making ends meet your whole life. My grand-mother-in-law (the only surviving grandparent left) just got laid off a month or two before my MIL. My MIL hasn't told her mother about her situation because the GMIL's health has declined since losing her job and MIL is worried that the stress will be too much for her to take at this point. MIL has a few siblings, all of which work crappy jobs and have significant credit-card debt. There is one aunt who seems generally able to make ends meet and has helped out as much as she could, but it hasn't been very much. My husband is the "shining star" of the family. He's the one who went to college, has a good job, etc... I'm somewhat worried that this has placed a target on his back, and have never fully discussed our financial situation with anyone on that side of the family. Her credit is trashed from when the alcoholic ex of hers ran up tons of debt a few years ago, so nobody will give her any form of a loan. I honestly have no idea what she would do if we did cut her off, which is another reason it's hard to do so. You are correct, though, that is does give us the position of being able to attach strings to what we provide. It's just hard for a family to adjust to that dynamic.

[zibazinski]

No different than a welfare recipient. They get used to the "hard life" and it seems normal. But if anyone makes it out of that life, they are viewed with envy and resentment by the rest of the family. You are stuck for life supporting her now unless you call a halt to it. 50% of that money is yours and you have 50% say in how it is spent. You and your DH need to get on the same page as to how much and for how long. Plus, the fact that it is going to be never ending unless you make it clear that it ends.

[stats45]

Msgumby, credits earned do not 'expire', but colleges are not required to accept them for transfer either. Many schools have requirements that you must complete the last 30 - 60 hours at their university, so it may take longer for her to finish than the amount of credits she has subtracted from the amount needed to graduate.

If she needs at least a year's worth of credits, will she be attending school full-time? If not, how long would it take her to graduate? Is she confident in her ability to complete the courses? Is there a degree program close to where she lives? Are there jobs available if she doesn't want to live the area where she lives? If it seems like there are some difficulties, it may be easier for her to complete a vocational or technical program that could lead to work quickly if that makes sense in her location.

[zibazinski]

She needs to get one of those CNA or something like that. They are 2-3 months long, not expensive and there are jobs waiting for them.

[zibazinski]

I can see this "college" thing as a never ending/never completing drain as well. She needs a fast career skill that will support her and her child. I wish you could get that poor child.

[msgumby]

sroo4 - I have discussed my place in this with my aunt-in-law, and she feels like any advice or discussion from me would be less-welcomed than coming from my husband or her, so for now I've been working through them. However, I do speak with the MIL on a semi-regular basis and try to open up the discussion to as much as she is comfortable talking about with me. I do appreciate the advice, and I've been trying to work my way into these discussions more, but don't want to overstep and make her uncomfortable to come to me.

zibazinski - I do agree that the money is just as much mine as it is my husbands. Like I said earlier, if I were to ask him to stop sending her money, he would. I'm just not certain if I've reached my limit yet because it's hard to not sympathize and want to help out. I think sroo hit the nail on the head with number 3 - i'm happy to help so long as i doesn't get out of hand, and it's hard to define when it gets out of hand. I don't think we've quite reached that point yet, but each new request has me re-evaluating how close we are to that point. This last one was a bit of a shocker, and really got me started questioning how much longer we would want to carry this on.

stats - she was able to apply a large amount of her previous work to this degree program, which is why it seemed like a good choice. They live in the absolute middle of nowhere, and it was also one of the only places close enough. She will be attending school full time, but we are not confident in her ability to complete the courses. I do a lot of tutoring in my spare time, and I have agreed to help with homework, etc... as needed so that she will be able to complete the courses. The other reason we have been pushing her to move out here with us is that she does live in the middle of nowhere, and it's hard to predict if there will be any job openings in her location when she is done with this. It was my understanding, however, that having a bachelors would open up opportunities to jobs that wouldn't necessarily be great or even in the field she got the degree, but would come with better benefits and abilities to advance. If she weren't already close to finishing, it wouldn't be an option at all. I will check with my husband to confirm that our understanding of how close she is to finishing is correct. She has worked in medical offices and may want to continue in that line of work. She has also expressed interest in teaching recently. She is on the older side for completing education, and I'm also worried that she will get a lot of age discrimination problems when job hunting as well. She has been obtained federal grants, which would fully cover her tuition at the school she is attending.

[whoisjohngalt]

I know all too well how MILs don't want to "hear" from anyone but their dear son, but seriously, you sound so smart and grounded and compassionate, that she would be a complete fool not to talk or listen to you and I think you need to get your DH to strongly convey that message to her.

I just have very big doubts that she will get a job even after her degree, considering her age and lack of relevant experience and living where she lives.

Good luck to you, I think you need it

Lena

[msgumby]

She does talk and listen to me, but it's a matter of who will the information be "best" coming from. She would hear it from me, but would hear it better from my husband or his aunt. The MIL does have some pride issues (she actually waited a few weks before telling anyone she got laid off) and it's harder for her to get advice from younger people. The exception to that is my husband, because she really does seem to respect and listen to him.

She is in her early-mid 50s now. She is not actually looking into breaking into computer science, but that was the degree she was close to finishing and could obtain easily. She's been out of work since about october of 2010. Without a degree, I think she has virtually no chance of getting a new job at this point. We're hoping the degree could open doors to at least slightly better jobs and can give her a better excuse for remaining unemployed in the short-term. And she would be able to apply federal grants to her degree program, making it potentially not that expensive for her to obtain. It would also be an actual bachelor's degree, versus a certification. I am concerned that she won't be able to find a job after completing the degree, any advice to minimize that problem would be useful.