The older kid thread

[Wisconsin Beth]

I don't know either.  We were told he should know visually up to 15 at this point.  I'm not sure if that's by age or length of time in school or what. 

[Deleted]

This might help brighten your spirits! 
www.magicalchildhood.com/articles/4yo.htm

[raeoflyte]

I think this lady is wacked Beth.  Is this a sub that just steps in to help out (but on a fairly regular basis?)  Because I think there is a good chance that ds knows more than he is letting on with someone he isn't comfortable with.  Especially someone who seems a bit harsh.  He may know that its a 5, but is more afraid of getting it 'wrong' than not saying anything at all.  I'd ignore her notes honestly.  I wanted Connor in preschool for the socialization and learning to work with other adults.  I don't mind the 'academics', but I expect it to be for fun. 

[Wisconsin Beth]

Thank you! 

[whoisjohngalt]

Beth, I don't know how much you should listen to me since we are homeschooling and this kind of crap that you are describing is one of the reasons.

It is CRAZY to expect a 4 yr old to know/do those things.  I mean like really really CRAZY.  Yes, some kids do it and some kids know all this, but it should not be expected.  That's just not where their brain is yet.  Yes, "we" keep pushing it to be, but it's just not.

So, unless school is making you do things, I would let it go and not worry.

I will admit, for full disclosure, that once I saw my kids wanting to "write", not just color, but do letters, I became semi-nazi about how they hold their pencils.  But my reason is that I am lazy, so I don't feel like reteaching them later and there is certain type of grip that actually makes writing easier.   And just yesterday I told my DS2 that he is not allowed to write any letters bc he is not doing it right and I won't feel like reteaching him later.

Anyway....I am getting off my soap box

[saveinla]

My son hated writing at that age and would hold his pencil wrong deliberately, just so he could complain that his hand hurt <img text="" alt=" " src="http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png">. He still hates writing, but at least now as a freshman in college, he just needs to type his notes in a computer. <br><br>Don't rush him. Tell the teacher that you are aware of his problems and will work with him. That may at least stop the notes.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Yeah Rae.  She's a sub.  We'd have a helluva lot of turnover in the last year so she's basically been the 1 constant person there.  Cabe goes there 3 days a week, if that matters.  And his speech has come on like crazy the last 4-6 months so I suspect/assume the math/letters will follow that.  Verbally he knows his numbers and letters.  He sings the alphabet song a lot.    He's also recently discovered music. 

And he's been asking for a sandbox for a few months.  I'll be building him one in spring so he'll have that mud pit mentioned in beer's link.   

[Wisconsin Beth]

I want him to have a chance to just be a kid.  He's as big as his sister and people expect more of him sometimes.  I know Scott and I do, mostly on behavior (Ok, mainly on not hitting his sister or me,) 

[raeoflyte]

Nov 14, 2013 12:20:28 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Beth, I don't know how much you should listen to me since we are homeschooling and this kind of crap that you are describing is one of the reasons.

It is CRAZY to expect a 4 yr old to know/do those things.  I mean like really really CRAZY.  Yes, some kids do it and some kids know all this, but it should not be expected.  That's just not where their brain is yet.  Yes, "we" keep pushing it to be, but it's just not.

So, unless school is making you do things, I would let it go and not worry.

I will admit, for full disclosure, that once I saw my kids wanting to "write", not just color, but do letters, I became semi-nazi about how they hold their pencils.  But my reason is that I am lazy, so I don't feel like reteaching them later and there is certain type of grip that actually makes writing easier.   And just yesterday I told my DS2 that he is not allowed to write any letters bc he is not doing it right and I won't feel like reteaching him later.

Anyway....I am getting off my soap box

Do you want to homeschool my kids too?  

[whoisjohngalt]

Nov 14, 2013 12:27:52 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Nov 14, 2013 12:20:28 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Beth, I don't know how much you should listen to me since we are homeschooling and this kind of crap that you are describing is one of the reasons.

It is CRAZY to expect a 4 yr old to know/do those things.  I mean like really really CRAZY.  Yes, some kids do it and some kids know all this, but it should not be expected.  That's just not where their brain is yet.  Yes, "we" keep pushing it to be, but it's just not.

So, unless school is making you do things, I would let it go and not worry.

I will admit, for full disclosure, that once I saw my kids wanting to "write", not just color, but do letters, I became semi-nazi about how they hold their pencils.  But my reason is that I am lazy, so I don't feel like reteaching them later and there is certain type of grip that actually makes writing easier.   And just yesterday I told my DS2 that he is not allowed to write any letters bc he is not doing it right and I won't feel like reteaching him later.

Anyway....I am getting off my soap box

Do you want to homeschool my kids too?  

Sure, they'll probably listen to me much better than my own do

[Wisconsin Beth]

I coudln't homeschool.  I'm not built for it - mentally or emotionally. 

[Wisconsin Beth]

Nov 14, 2013 12:20:51 GMT -5 saveinla said:

My son hated writing at that age and would hold his pencil wrong deliberately, just so he could complain that his hand hurt <img src=" alt=" <img src="http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png">" src="http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png">. He still hates writing, but at least now as a freshman in college, he just needs to type his notes in a computer.

Don't rush him. Tell the teacher that you are aware of his problems and will work with him. That may at least stop the notes.

Saveinla - he LOVES my Kindle.  He can navigate it pretty well and gets upset when I tried to help him last night.  He wanted to show an Angry Birds thing to his dad. 

[whoisjohngalt]

Nov 14, 2013 12:34:36 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

I coudln't homeschool.  I'm not built for it - mentally or emotionally. 

I drink.  And I miss smoking in a daily basis

[Wisconsin Beth]

I drink now as it is.  Never smoked though. 

[taz157]

I had a parent/teacher conference last month for DD. (She's 2.25.) I was told she needed to know her numbers, letters, shapes, and colors better. For DD, everything is purple when I ask her the color. During the conference, I kept thinking she turned 2 two months ago... She needs to have her 2 yr old doc visit still so when I eventually get around to making it, I'll ask then too.

[whoisjohngalt]

Nov 14, 2013 12:53:38 GMT -5 taz157 said:

I had a parent/teacher conference last month for DD. (She's 2.25.) I was told she needed to know her numbers, letters, shapes, and colors better. For DD, everything is purple when I ask her the color. During the conference, I kept thinking she turned 2 two months ago... She needs to have her 2 yr old doc visit still so when I eventually get around to making it, I'll ask then too.

OK, my youngest and your DD are days apart.  He is barely speaking yet.  And yes, my oldest knew all his letters, numbers, shapes and colors by the time he was 2.  Guess what ?  He is 5, he is still not reading, so I don't know what him knowing his numbers at 2 got accomplished exactly.

Oh and for my DS3 everything is blue/yellow.  Whatever. 

Also, I am going to give you a point of reference, ladies.

Where I grew up, you started 1st grade at 7.  You weren't expected to know ANYTHING.  I mean, you didn't have to know your numbers or letters or how to write.  I did and I was bored out of my mind for the first few years of school. 

Guess what?  By 6th and 7th grade we were learning all kinds of complicated geometry and trigonometry and calculus.  And our reading list covered classics from around the world, including French Playwriters and such.

Anyone expecting a 2 yr old to know letters needs to be thrown out out of "teaching".  Yes, I know this will never happen, but please don't stress yourself out.

[raeoflyte]

Wrongside--can you ask your pediatrician if you can take him some where else to see the OT?  When we were going to have Connor's speech and hearing tested the place they were sending us did everything it seemed like.  It was $200 for the initial consult and they told us up front that getting insurance to pay for anything would be incredibly difficult, but at least it would give you a starting point.  

And I freaking hate days on the phone like that.  

[econstudent]

Nov 14, 2013 13:01:07 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Anyone expecting a 2 yr old to know letters needs to be thrown out out of "teaching".  Yes, I know this will never happen, but please don't stress yourself out.

 I think it's pretty well known that forcing kids to learn things before they are ready just makes it take longer for them to learn. Wait until they're ready and it happens fast. At 2, all I'd care about is that my kid seemed curious and interested in learning new things. I don't think the speed at which they learn those things is a predictor of anything. 

[Deleted]

Just to be clear as well, 'knowing' colors, letters, shapes, etc is knowledge/recall information. It is the same as recognizing the lady who picks me up when I cry is called mom, and the thing I drink from is called cup.... While vocabulary development is eventually (not at 2) important, being able to name these things is really only tangentially related to the much more complex process of utilizing them in application and synthesis, which requires different developmental abilities.  

[raeoflyte]

That sucks wrongside. Really makes me wonder how successful that is in a classroom. I think you have a good plan though.

[shanendoah]

Long time reader, first time poster here (to this thread) 

Do any of you have experience dealing with a hypochondriac child? I swear sometimes Pop Tart would rather be given a pill instead of a hug.

We know that part of it for her is attention seeking, but then she works herself up to a near panic attack. C took her to urgent care at 12:30am the night before Thanksgiving because she decided her stomach hurt and she absolutely MUST go to the doctor. We knew it was a combination of anxiety and attention seeking (my 21 yr old cousin had arrived that evening and was getting attention from us). We knew there was nothing physically wrong with her and we tried to explain that a little bit and work on her visualization. She would calm down and be fine, but then C would leave the room to talk to K and suddenly she had to go to the doctor again. He finally gave in and took her, otherwise none of us would have gotten any sleep. As it was, they got back home at 3am, and we had to cancel Pop Tart's morning plans with her sister because I wasn't willing to foist her off on her sister's parents and aunt with less than 6 hours sleep.
One good thing about it is that the doctor told her no more bedtime snack. This is vindication for us because the previous family she lived with (who were supposed to be a foster to adopt family but backed out after 9 months with her) had started her on graham crackers every night at bedtime to "settle her stomach", so this was a medical necessity, as far as Pop Tart was concerned, because previous foster mom had been a nurse. So now a doctor confirming what we told her- doesn't help your stomach, in fact, makes it worse, was one of those nice little mean moments.

But, back to my point, we really need for Pop Tart not to think she needs to see the doctor every time her tummy hurts a little bit, or think a pill is the solution to everything. 
She's already in counseling and will be there for the foreseeable future, but right now is really focused on expressing her feelings and her abandonment issues. That will eventually translate less hypochondria (I hope), but I really need not to be back in urgent care at Christmas when friends and family once again come to visit and get some of our attention.

So, any suggestions to help a child get past hypochondria in the short term (while we work on the underlying causes in therapy)?

[raeoflyte]

I need to check out that book wrongside!

Shenandoah - this is really all just a guess on my part, but with our DS we're trying to teach him how to get our attention without interrupting by holding our hand.

Do you have people staying with you for the holidays? If so I might see if you can make other arrangements just because this is poptarts first holiday season with you.

I'd also try to schedule time with just the 3 of you before bigger family get togethers. Go for a walk, playground, etc so she has lots of time to connect.

And talking, talking, talking. DS doesn't do well with surprises, but usually is a trooper if we have given him warning of what to expect.

Good luck!

Sent from my Droid using proboards

[whoisjohngalt]

While I am no Dr Phil and my own 3 yr old is a little drug addict - I would try to get two points across to her:

1.  We take ALL your complaints and concerns seriously and yes, we will take you to the doctor if you want/need us to.
2.  Remember, that if you are not feeling well, we might not be able to do A, B and C that we planned/you wanted us to do.

Bc "I" would want her to know that 1 - I trust her completely and 2 - being sick is a serious business and will be taken as such.

ETA:  I really wouldn't be trying to convince her that she doesn't need to see a dr but if it was done to me, the ONLY message I would get is that people don't trust me and don't care about my well-being.   But that's me, of course

[shanendoah]

@wrongsideof30 - I will have to see if I can find that book. Thank you for the suggestion. Though as it is, getting her to talk about her feelings is hard. It's actually one of the things the counselor focuses on in each session. So for us, it's not about getting the right words, it's about getting her to say anything at all. The bottling up of her emotions, and the anxiety that causes, is a huge trigger for her tummy aches.

raeoflyte - she always gets advanced warning of what is happening. surprises do not go over well and we already know it. No one is staying with us this holiday. My mom has a hotel room.
The problem with scheduling time for just the three of us is that, if it isn't exactly what she wants to do (like watching TV), she pouts through the entire process, or does her best to disrupt it/end it more quickly. Which isn't a great mood to have her in pre-get together. And if watching TV is what she wants to do, she doesn't actually care if we are with her or not. (Because of her very strong and continual desire to just shut her brain off and sit on the couch like a lump, we actually have a very strict, non-family, screen time policy for her.)

whoisjohngalt - We do take her complaints seriously and we do talk about how we will adjust the schedule if she is not feeling well. At Thanksgiving, it meant she did not get to go spend time with her sister in the morning. (But she still got to spend time with her sister that afternoon, so it wasn't much of a consequence. And for my own sanity, I let her get 7 hours of sleep before waking her up, which is less than her usual 10, but it did let her sleep 2-3 hours later that she normally would.)
The problem with letting her decide when and how often she goes to the doctor is that we end up in urgent care every two weeks, generally late at night. Because during the school week, she loves school (or at least the social aspect of it) and does not want to miss seeing her friends. And during the day on the weekend, she does not want to stop doing the fun things she wants to do. So it is at night on weekends that suddenly she doesn't feel well, and that she just HAS to go to the doctor.
I know she is actually not feeling well when she complains of feeling sick during daylight hours, when she could be off doing something fun. The problem is, most of the time, her "ailments" don't strike until we say "go put on your jammies" or "time for teeth and hair", in other words, start the bedtime routine.
Urgent care exists for a reason, and I will use it without a thought when needed, but it is NOT needed when she has a tummy ache because C or I spent 5 minutes talking to someone else (after Pop Tart was already in bed).
If we could handle the issue by saying we will call and get her an appt with her pediatrician next business day, I'd be fine with that. But she knows urgent care exists,and works herself up to the point where she just HAS to go to urgent care, RIGHT NOW. (She knows enough to know she doesn't need to go to the ER, and neither C nor I can bring ourselves to try and teach her a lesson by taking her to the ER for a belly ache in the middle of the night.)
It is a balancing act. We want her to know we do care and we do take not feeling well seriously. At the same time, we just can't be in urgent care every other Saturday night. It is irresponsible, a waste of our time, a waste of the medical professionals time, and a waste of dollars. And it gives her the wrong message. She gets the idea that there is a magic pill that will fix anything. There's not. We have ways of helping her deal with her anxiety from the therapist. And THEY WORK, as long as she's willing to let them work. But she'd rather take a pill than take 5 minutes and breath slowly.
That's where my frustration comes in.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Sugar pills? 

[raeoflyte]

Does she like to help out? As in can she be given a couple very important tasks to be in charge of? Or is there a friend that she could bring with her to some holiday get togethers so she has her own distraction?

Later might have some ideas from when lgw was staying with her. I'm not sure that she lurks over here but you could pm her. You're definitely in a unique situation (at least for most of the posters here I think).

Sent from my Droid using proboards

[Wisconsin Beth]

Mine are younger than Poptart but we also use my old teddy bear for comforting because "he's very good at tears, scary things at bed at night and not feeling well"  Is there something you can give Poptart to cuddle with when she's not feeling right? 

[whoisjohngalt]

I wasn't saying or implying that you don't take her complaints seriously.  I am just thinking that she may be doesn't think you do.

The whole thing that you described screams to me "I want to have control". 

I always make a disclaimer that the only thing I know about kids is what I am learning/observing with my own and my own opinions and thought process in general.

If it strikes at night only - "I" would try the "if you are not feeling well, let me stay with you and take care of you" approach instead and stay in her room until she falls asleep.  Or allow her to stay up and "see how it goes" approach.   That would still show that you are taking her seriously and care about her, but hopefully will avoid the UC trip.

BTW, I have "laying down time" with my boys before they go to sleep.  I found that it is one of the best times to get the real scoop on their feelings and their day.

Also, I don't know how that works in real world (only in Lifetime movies) but I would be worried that CPS or another agency starts looking at me funny if my kid was in UC every two weeks.  And depending on her level of understanding, I might be explaining that to her as well.

As far as pills - well, I wasn't kidding when I said that my 3 yr old is a little drug addict.  He wants "medicine" all.the.time.   So, I tell him that sure, he can have it, but needs to know that if he is really feeling fine, keep taking medicine won't help him but hurt him.  Which is partially true, since IBprofin can do lots of stuff to one's stomach.  I don't know if that would work with someone older, though.

[shanendoah]

Wisconsin Beth - Oh, what I would not give for sugar pills some days, but... (and I'm feeling a little like doxie here, I hope you ladies will forgive me). Pop Tart's birth mom is an addict. That's why she and her sister were removed from their mother's care. So one of the very last things we want is for her to view pills/drugs (even prescribed ones) as the answer to all of life's ills. Medications are taken when necessary, but we don't take them randomly. 
And this is hard, because she LOVES being on medication. She knows the schedule she's supposed to get her medication on, and will start asking for it 30 minutes before it's due. (It's like she's the dogs with dinner time, honestly.) We were not even able to slowly wean her off the pain meds from when she broke her arm, because if we were giving it, she was "in pain" on the schedule she needed it for the first day. So after 3 days (which was how long the doctor told us she would probably need it), we stopped any day time doses, only giving her ibuprofen, and saving the opiate for night time for the next two nights.
She was on laxatives, after our first UC trip for anxiety caused stomach pain (and the anxiety really did cause constipation), and despite what laxatives do, she was asking for them every day. "It's time to take my medicine" or "I haven't had my medicine yet" were common phrases. I kept the doctor's orders around to show her that we were only supposed to give medication x on y days, etc, because she gets to insistent about it. 

As for the stuffed animal, up until the end of August, she couldn't even sleep if there were stuffed animals visible in her room (they all had to be covered or hidden away at night), let alone on her bed. She does now occasionally sleep with a stuffed animal, and we are working on visualizing it as a protector when she wakes up from a bad dream, to help her fall back asleep. But while she has a great imagination, she doesn't like to use it on cue, so telling her to imagine or  "vision" something often results in her telling you she can't.



raeoflyte - she helped with prep at Thanksgiving. And we did have friends over with their daughter, and then her sister came over, and all three girls pretty much stayed closed up in Pop Tart's room the entire time they were there, only coming out for food (and then, it was an eat and run). Our biggest problem the night before Thanksgiving was that it became an attention grab. We were able to use techniques from her therapist to get her calmed down and feeling better, and then C would leave the room, and if he spoke more than 2 words to K, Pop Tart would work herself back up. 
Pop Tart loves K. Or I should say, she is absolutely fascinated by her. She's an early 20s college student who is a bit crazy (and on anxiety meds herself). For the most part, Pop Tart does great with K and loves having her around, but that night, for whatever reason, she could not abide C spending time talking to K.

whoisjohngalt - those are excellent suggestions, and I would totally take them, if that was not part of our bed time routine already. Pop Tart hates to be alone. Every night, I brush teeth and hair with her. Then C and I both go in her room while one of us reads to her. Then one of us stays in her room, every night, until she falls asleep. Every night. (Yes, we hope that in the next year or so, we can break this routine. We have tried in the past, but right now, there are just so many other things that we're working on, and many areas where we are seeing improvement, that we just accept sitting in her room for 20-30 minutes after bedtime is part of our routine, too.)
We do talk about the consequences of taking medicine, and what can happen if we take too much. But once she gets it in her head that she is "supposed" to have the medicine, she won't actually pay attention to how she feels, she'll just tell you she needs the medicine. It is why I've started keeping the doctor's orders for her meds, so that we can talk about what the doctor said we were supposed to do, etc, to help her move on when it is time to stop taking a med.
But maybe we should talk more about the side effects of non-Rx meds. Right now, her favorite thing is the heating pad for her back and shoulders (and with a cast on one arm, she definitely has some pain there). I doubt she needs it every night, but it's not a pill, and as long as she only uses it during story time and we turn it off to sleep, it won't hurt anything, so we're just giving in on that one. (To the point where I may need to buy a second heating pad, so that we have the use of one again.)


As for the thought about CPS, if we were still foster parents, they totally monitor that. There is significantly less monitoring now that we have officially adopted her. And while she would totally respond to us saying "they might come and take you away if we go to urgent care", given her abandonment issues and the instability she has had in her life, that would going just too far. It would be the nuclear solution. She would stop telling us if she hurt for real.

[whoisjohngalt]

I read it somewhere (I read VERY few parenting things) that going to bed/sleep to some children is like being....not abandoned....but like having a separation anxiety of some sort.  I read that in response to parents having a hard time with toddlers/pre-schoolers going to bed, trying to get "just one more sip of water" or "one more story" etc

So, may be she is subconsciously feeling that?  Can you move her into your room?

I am not in a co-sleeper camp AT ALL, but I've noticed with my kids that there are different issues that manifest themselves in their night sleeping.  So, I try to make night times as safe and as good for them as I can.  Different phases usually pass, they are over all pretty good sleepers.

I am sorry you are having a hard time.