Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2012 15:08:37 GMT -5
The solutions are:
1. Single payer, universal healthcare access for everyone
2. Graduated programs where earning $1 won't lose you hundreds/thousands in benefits
3. Allow people on "welfare programs" to save up money to start living independently
4. Food stamps should be better allocated, espeically for the disabled and elderly. Complete crap foods should be removed from eligibility. I would much prefer to pay for TP or tampons with FS than for chocolate, for example.
5. Better tracking of income/expenses/assets that people claim.
6. Actual social workers who could help people in situations like mine where I could use some advice. Having a "worker" who works from a chart just doesn't do much to help people become more self- sufficient.
7. Provide better mental health services in our country. Most/many of our homeless and poverty folks are truly mentally ill.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 28, 2012 18:23:34 GMT -5
Shasta - how will providing even more free government goodies (universal healthcare) help eliminate poverty? A majority of the truly poor right now have medcaid. We need to find ways to incentivize people to work full time and giving away benefits is not the way to do it.
I agree in theory with an exchange idea where people have to buy into a program, paying in some cases a graduated rate based on income levels. That should assist with incentivizing people to work.
But adding even more free benefits to what is already available is not the answer.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 28, 2012 18:36:11 GMT -5
Dude, 80% of us are "non-producers." We're being carried by the millionaires and billionaires of this country. Yes, it is a problem. But it's not just limited to welfare recipients. At the risk of giving away more than I want to, my incremental Federal income tax rate is 28%. My State rate is 5%, FICA 7.65%. After I pay several hundred dollars each month for my family's insurance premiums and saving for retirement I take home about 40 cents on the dollar for each dollar I work my ass off to earn. To suggest I take home even less when some people have to be given incentives to work by GETTING cash back instead of paying taxes is just plain effed up. Seriously, just how much more do you thing I should contribute to society? I am one of the evil producers who everyone is suggesting pay even more in taxes. I think I'm already contributing quite a bit, my question is what is the 80% willing to contribute?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 29, 2012 7:07:34 GMT -5
Welfare needs to end, period. I'm all for it being like unemployment. 26 weeks to get back on your feet and the is some job training that ends in a short period of time so you can get a job afterward. Plus, no welfare of ANY sort until age 21. That gives some people the chance to get a job, graduate high school, get some kind of life before just becoming the next generation of baby makers. If you have to move in with a relative to watch your baby while you work nights and then go without a lot of sleep during the day, so be it, you made your CHOICE. But no way should taxpayers be expected to fund your CHOICES. This also gives women a chance to escape these abusive situations and get on their feet. Section 8 needs to end, period. 26 weeks of it makes no difference anyway but job training, daycare, food stamps and all for 26 weeks should be enough to get them on their feet and off the dole forever. But like unemployment, no more collecting it for 10 years after the first time. This 99 weeks of unemployment started the welfare mentality among working people. Hey, they could sit home and collect a check as well so why not!?
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InsertCoolName
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Post by InsertCoolName on Oct 29, 2012 7:44:01 GMT -5
Wow. What kind of world would it be with NO poor people? Imagine a middle class/rich walmart cashier!!!!! Or a McD's cashier making over 50k. That would be awesome.
Oh wait. Those people would be the 'new' poor. Well maybe all the companies could just make things and sell them at a lower price, like lower than now prices. That way everyone in the world can still be rich and there will never ever be a lower class. I mean we don't need any lower paying jobs. Everyone should just get a college degree for whatever is like THE BEST CAREER EVER!!!! Yeah, we can just have the old folks and the mentally ill people working at Walmart and other places. That would work. Then because everyone is rich...it won't be AS bad to take care of them. I mean so long as the old folks have adult diapers and the mental people are taking their meds....it will be PERFECT! It can be like go work 8 hours and then you can have your medicine. And your bed. Should they be allowed to have a shower just on the days they work? I mean, I wouldn't want to smell anyone of them. And sometimes those old people have a whoa smell, ya know? The world motto could be "Old and mentally ill people can have their 3 hots and a cot IF they work a few hours per day!"
WOW. That would be a wonderful world to live in.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 7:57:51 GMT -5
Wow. What kind of world would it be with NO poor people? Imagine a middle class/rich walmart cashier!!!!! Or a McD's cashier making over 50k. That would be awesome. Oh wait. Those people would be the 'new' poor. Well maybe all the companies could just make things and sell them at a lower price, like lower than now prices. That way everyone in the world can still be rich and there will never ever be a lower class. I mean we don't need any lower paying jobs. Everyone should just get a college degree for whatever is like THE BEST CAREER EVER!!!! Yeah, we can just have the old folks and the mentally ill people working at Walmart and other places. That would work. Then because everyone is rich...it won't be AS bad to take care of them. I mean so long as the old folks have adult diapers and the mental people are taking their meds....it will be PERFECT! It can be like go work 8 hours and then you can have your medicine. And your bed. Should they be allowed to have a shower just on the days they work? I mean, I wouldn't want to smell anyone of them. And sometimes those old people have a whoa smell, ya know? The world motto could be "Old and mentally ill people can have their 3 hots and a cot IF they work a few hours per day!" WOW. That would be a wonderful world to live in. There will always be poor....repeat, always! And no matter how many new social programs we start, or much much money we throw at the problem, it is growing, not shrinking Reasons fo this are numerous 1. education or skill level of the poor 2. no role models to follow 3. family/social pressure that there is no "getting out" 4. IT IS HARD TO CHANGE...and most dont think they can do it So...do we continue to throw good money after the bad, hoping that eventually something will work? While that number continies to swell, the numbers of "productive" citizens continues to shrink. Those that are paying for the others. And eventually the straw that breaks the camel's back is coming.....we wont have enough people paying to continue all the programs So at that point, people are going to be pissed...whadda ya mean, no more checks! We have to come up with solutions that will last, and solutions to lower the number of people that need and use these programs And there is no EASY answers
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 8:07:23 GMT -5
The solutions are: 1. Single payer, universal healthcare access for everyone 2. Graduated programs where earning $1 won't lose you hundreds/thousands in benefits 3. Allow people on "welfare programs" to save up money to start living independently 4. Food stamps should be better allocated, espeically for the disabled and elderly. Complete crap foods should be removed from eligibility. I would much prefer to pay for TP or tampons with FS than for chocolate, for example. 5. Better tracking of income/expenses/assets that people claim. 6. Actual social workers who could help people in situations like mine where I could use some advice. Having a "worker" who works from a chart just doesn't do much to help people become more self- sufficient. 7. Provide better mental health services in our country. Most/many of our homeless and poverty folks are truly mentally ill. Shasta, May I ask, who is going to pay all these program? What is there for incentive to work and keep on trying for personal betterment.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 8:11:07 GMT -5
gdgyva, There will always be poor....repeat, always!
And no matter how many new social programs we start, or much much money we throw at the problem, it is growing, not shrinking
Reasons fo this are numerous
1. education or skill level of the poor 2. no role models to follow 3. family/social pressure that there is no "getting out" 4. IT IS HARD TO CHANGE...and most dont think they can do itSo...do we continue to throw good money after the bad, hoping that eventually something will work?
While that number continies to swell, the numbers of "productive" citizens continues to shrink. Those that are paying for the others. And eventually the straw that breaks the camel's back is coming.....we wont have enough people paying to continue all the programs
So at that point, people are going to be pissed...whadda ya [/b]mean, no more checks!
We have to come up with solutions that will last, and solutions to lower the number of people that need and use these programs
And there is no EASY answers
;D
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 29, 2012 8:21:38 GMT -5
The solutions are: 1. Single payer, universal healthcare access for everyone 2. Graduated programs where earning $1 won't lose you hundreds/thousands in benefits 3. Allow people on "welfare programs" to save up money to start living independently 4. Food stamps should be better allocated, espeically for the disabled and elderly. Complete crap foods should be removed from eligibility. I would much prefer to pay for TP or tampons with FS than for chocolate, for example. 5. Better tracking of income/expenses/assets that people claim. 6. Actual social workers who could help people in situations like mine where I could use some advice. Having a "worker" who works from a chart just doesn't do much to help people become more self- sufficient. 7. Provide better mental health services in our country. Most/many of our homeless and poverty folks are truly mentally ill. Shasta, May I ask, who is going to pay all these program? What is there for incentive to work and keep on trying for personal betterment. All what programs? Shasta's suggestions would improve the programs already in place, not add new ones. (With the possible exception of the mental health point - although I agree that mental health services among the poor are pretty shoddy). And #2 - 5 would provide an incentive to work. These programs, in their current form, provide a disincentive - since if you earn more than an arbitrary amount, the benefits aren't graduated, but completely eliminated. If you know that if you work an extra hour per week you'll lose a $400 benefit, what incentive do you have to work then? Or if you try to save up to buy a new vehicle and render yourself ineligible for aid? (Many programs require you to have <$2K in cash/savings). Why would you even try to save? If you know you can receive more by staying at home than by taking a minimum wage job and paying for childcare, why WOULDN'T you stay home? We like to call people lazy, but I'd be the first to tell you that if I could make more money than I do now by NOT working, I'd be out of here so fast it'd make your head spin. So I certainly can't blame others for making the same choice. If we really want to reduce the number of people receiving aid, we have to allow them to become self-sufficient - not kick them off the rolls as soon as they begin to earn more/save more. It's like taking a kid off a tricyle and putting them a 10-speed bike and expecting them not to fall.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 8:27:23 GMT -5
The earned income tax credit is a step in the right direction of getting people off welfare and back working.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 29, 2012 8:32:02 GMT -5
Rewriting and then implementing the guidelines that instead of completely cutting off benefits when the recipient earns $X per week, that they get 80% of benefits at $X earned per week, 60% of benefits at $X + 15%, 40% of benefits at $X + 30%, and so on, down to $0 in benefits once the recipient gets out of the poverty-level wage area. The numbers can be tweaked, but you get the idea.
Somehow the unemployment system manages to do this, I don't see how doing it in the welfare context would be much more difficult.
And hearing all the stories (Cawaiu had one) about people who refuse to take on more work or a promotion because it would completely eliminate their benefits, this seems to be a problem. If you knew you could take a promotion and wouldn't actually LOSE money by doing so, it would be a much easier decision.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 8:34:28 GMT -5
mid, Before you jump on the gun.You and yourself said, we can possibly keep up with those spending. Have a good day. Have some reasoning behind of your thought. The country is broke.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 29, 2012 8:38:17 GMT -5
And I am making suggestions to fix it. What are your suggestions?
I did say that we can't keep up with the current spending levels. But my point was, unless you fall in the top 20% (and I know some here posting do, and I also know some don't) you are part of the problem.
I am also in favor of across-the-board tax increases. I think everyone should pay something, although naturally those at the bottom aren't going to be able to pay as much.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 8:42:17 GMT -5
mid,
You probably read, my life history in here. If one can't succeed in this country. Either system is No good or people mindset is not in right places.
And our current system is not working.
Did you read, how much we borrow from other countries to pay for those social program.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 8:46:23 GMT -5
And I am making suggestions to fix it. What are your suggestions? I did say that we can't keep up with the current spending levels. But my point was, unless you fall in the top 20% (and I know some here posting do, and I also know some don't) you are part of the problem. I am also in favor of across-the-board tax increases. I think everyone should pay something, although naturally those at the bottom aren't going to be able to pay as much. mid, Yes, I fall into top 20% and I have been paying plenty of the tax. It's not my job to fix the problem. It's the job of your elected politician.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 29, 2012 8:48:49 GMT -5
So you'd rather complain about problems than come up with constructive solutions... got it.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 29, 2012 8:52:50 GMT -5
So you'd rather complain about problems than come up with constructive solutions... got it. Let them eat cake.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Oct 29, 2012 8:58:26 GMT -5
The core issue IMO is not welfare, but jobs. You can reform welfare all you want, but until there are enough living wage jobs people will still be poor. Honestly, I blame globalization for this. Yes, we've had incredible benefits from globalization, but that doesn't mean there aren't costs. One cost IMO is that the segment of people who are not able to perform at a higher, globalization level (due to below average intelligence or significant childhood dysfunction) will need more care via welfare. Not everyone can work a computer, KWIM? So we either acknowledge it as a society and create incentives/laws so companies keep manual labor type work jobs local, or we outsource the jobs and give welfare to the people who can't find work. Either way has costs - goods cost more due to higher labor costs or we pay more taxes to fund welfare. The issue is which kind of cost would you rather pay? The problem IMO is that a lot of people want it both ways. They want their cheaper iPhone/lamp/shoes AND no welfare. But the reality is that won't work. At least, society won't function how it currently does if we go that route. Because if the poor lose their welfare and can't get a living wage job, you just end up with homelessness increased 10,000%. No one will want to drive anywhere anymore because you'll either get carjacked by a starving teenage boy, or your car will get bombarded by 4yo children wanting to wash your window for five cents at a stop light. Think of countries with no social programs and THAT is what our streets will look like. People will still have babies - those babies will just crawl around on the sidewalk all day while the mom tries to find some sort of job. (And please - don't suggest orphanages as cheaper than welfare programs - look how expensive it is to run a prison). And speaking of prisons, expect those to increase quite a lot as we punish all the teenage carjackers. Yeah, that will save us TONS of money. IMO this problem will only increase as more jobs are outsourced. It's somewhat coming to a crisis point - it was one thing when "brainless" jobs were farmed out, but now that accounting/legal/journalism (and many other) white collar jobs are getting farmed out, people are starting to realize that this is a significant national issue. Should the 1% support the bottom 80% because 80% of jobs have been globalized? I wouldn't want to. But that means we start establishing a framework for jobs being kept local.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 29, 2012 9:01:30 GMT -5
Not for most. You make $200 a week, you get certain benefits. You make $201 per week, you get no benefits.
I believe food stamps are somewhat graduated - the more income you have, the fewer FS you receive, but you still get something.
Maybe I didn't write my post clearly - I wasn't adding back a percentage to the benefits, I was adding it to the salary.
So if you make $200 per week, you get 100% of your benefits. If you make $240, you get 80%. If you make $280, you get 60% of your benefits. If you make $320, you get 40% of your benefits. And so on. (These numbers are just examples).
The math whizzes should be able to create a formula that will ensure that taking on extra work will result in extra income. Currently, for many, taking on extra work results in LESS income because you will lose more in benefits than you will earn from the extra work.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 9:08:40 GMT -5
In most areas, there are jobs, but not enough qualified people to do them
The menial jobs of working an assembly line are all but gone
Now we need higher education or skills to qualify for middle class jobs....where 40 years ago, you didnt even need a high school diploma
Not everyone is college material.....and there are only so many technical/trade jobs available
So we still need waitresses, cashiers, fry cooks, and maids
Those are lower middle class to poverty positions....and always have been
So do we continue trying to increase their standard of living?
When someone on federal/state programs can earn more than someone busting their ass at one of those jobs, we have a major issue
We have to make working more appealing, and getting aid less appealing
How? That is the real question
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 29, 2012 9:16:01 GMT -5
By gradually reducing benefits proportionate to income to incentivize people to move up the ladder?
I can't speak for anyone else, but the only reason I don't sit home and collect assistance is because I can make more money by working. If I could earn the same paycheck by sitting around and watching TV, I'd be nuts to work! I don't think those on assistance are fundamentally different.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 9:17:31 GMT -5
So you'd rather complain about problems than come up with constructive solutions... got it. Let them eat cake. swamp, Good morning. You must woke up in wrong places this morning. I will refuse eat anyone cake. I will do the thinking for myself, like you do yours. Freedom of speech is Constitution of The United of State. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 9:19:34 GMT -5
In most areas, there are jobs, but not enough qualified people to do them The menial jobs of working an assembly line are all but gone Now we need higher education or skills to qualify for middle class jobs....where 40 years ago, you didnt even need a high school diploma Not everyone is college material.....and there are only so many technical/trade jobs available So we still need waitresses, cashiers, fry cooks, and maids Those are lower middle class to poverty positions....and always have been So do we continue trying to increase their standard of living? When someone on federal/state programs can earn more than someone busting their ass at one of those jobs, we have a major issue We have to make working more appealing, and getting aid less appealing How? That is the real question
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 29, 2012 9:20:17 GMT -5
The Constitution only prohibits the government from restricting your speech. It has absolutely nothing to do with discussion on internet message boards.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 29, 2012 9:21:03 GMT -5
And why would I make an appointment with my doctor if I could just pop into the ER anytime I wantedWhy does everyone think going to the ER is so awesome and easy and that's what poor people go there? I slashed my finger in half and had to make a trip to the ER. Since I wasn't bleeding to death on hte floor I wasn't high priority. I sat in the waiting room for TWO HOURS, then it was another hour before I saw anyone (and they charge for the rooms by every 15-30 minutes). Then it took another 45 minutes before I was dismissed. $300 just to have someone glue my finger together after insurance. I think it was close to $700 pre insurance. Yeah that is AWESOME and super convieniet. I'd sure like to do that instead of making an appointment with a GP and getting in and out in an hour.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 29, 2012 9:21:41 GMT -5
And I'm assuming these workers from Mexico are paid above-the-table, in accordance with federal and state wage laws, and all taxes withheld?
(In this area, the answer is usually no. Employers hire them not because welfare recipients "won't work" those jobs, but because they can get migrant workers to do manual labor for $5/hr cash.)
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 29, 2012 9:24:24 GMT -5
You can also get away with violating labor laws because illegal immigrants have no clue what their rights are and are too afraid of getting deported.
DH's employer hires a lot of illegals, in fact they advertise heavily across the boarder. Yet there are lines outside the employment office every day.
It isn't because Americans are too lazy to take these jobs therefore employers have no choice but to hire illegals. There are many many perks the company gets out of hiring non-citizens.
DH used to think the same way as a lot of people on these threads until he actually worked for an employer that has a very large illegal immigrant employment base (and not all of them are Mexican, FYI).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 9:27:49 GMT -5
The Constitution only prohibits the government from restricting your speech. It has absolutely nothing to do with discussion on internet message boards. mid, I am done with your hard reasoning. ;D I think, you have to live little more to understand what I am talking about. I have a 22 years old Son. Just like you are hard nosed and believes in his conviction. And there is not a thing wrong with that.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 29, 2012 9:30:42 GMT -5
We should have a race between our poor and illegal immigrants for the lowest pay acceptable. Whoever wins gets the job (and the low pay).
That's how a proper free market should work right?
Poor people do not deserve labor laws, insurance or retirement plans. If we get rid of all that then they'll be able to compete just fine with the illegals.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 9:31:10 GMT -5
Tough Times (remember her?) also made statements like this. I refuse to be hostage to such ideas. Work your butt off to feed them so they don't eat you? It's all about personal choice. Except, those few, can't really help themselves.
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