Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 24, 2012 10:41:51 GMT -5
This is something I’ve been thinking about for a while. I realize I may come across as “on a high horse” and uncompassionate, but I feel the need to pose the question and hopefully gain some insight. The recent federal government statistic of spending more than 1 trillion dollars on welfare benefits is really eye opening. And keep in mind the statistic did not include state spending on welfare, social security, medicare, or even private charity.
I realize there may be some disagreement over how Medicare and social security should be considered, so for the sake of argument we don’t have to include them in “welfare” but even without that, the amount of money being spent on “the poor” is truly staggering in this country.
So I guess I have a few questions along those lines.
Why is there so much need? I realize this may be a strange question. Yes I realize some people are physically or mentally incapable of working and being self-sufficient due to medical issues. And I realize otherwise healthy and productive citizens can get blindsided by medical costs. And I realize shit happens, people get laid off, and I realize people born poor face challenges and are likely to end up poor. But when you think about it, this is nothing new. Yet the amount of money we spend on “the poor” keeps growing and the ranks of those on government assistance seem to swell and never decrease.
So basically, how come the amount of the money we spend on the needy continues to grow, yet the ranks of the needy never shrink?
And as a follow up question, How much is too much to spend on “the poor?” And why is the amount we spend on the poor never enough?
For the record I’m not really advocating for anything. I’m not saying get rid of all social programs and let the poor die in the streets or anything like that. I think we have a responsibility to help the poor, but it seems like the more money we spend the more the ranks of the poor swell, instead of the opposite.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 10:45:25 GMT -5
Because it turns into "learned helplessness". Welfare as a temporary help back up, fine. But, when it becomes your lifestyle, it totally destroys human dignity, the work ethic and the self esteem of the recipients who begin to believe they simply cannot make it on their own. The notion of self reliance seems a pipe dream and unattainable. So, the crumb that the govt gives you becomes the focus of your life in order to survive. And, as more is pumped in , the more entitled people feel to take money and other benefits that they did not earn and help themselves to the hard work and labor of others.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 10:47:21 GMT -5
because somehow we have forgotten how to make our citizens self reliant
poor education, poor choices, and bad luck all contribute
and it is only getting worse......we have over 3 million kids a year drop out of high school, let alone any higher skill or education
i would garner that most of those will end up on one program or another in the future
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Oct 24, 2012 10:54:29 GMT -5
It's the economy. Pre 2008 things weren't so bad and there was far less people needing assistance. I don't know what level of help is considered acceptable, but it's hard to argue with the fact that our economy has dramatically worsened things.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 10:54:45 GMT -5
And, as the system expands, it deteriorates everything around it. The govt regulates jobs out of existence. You cannot help yourself even if you want to .
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 10:59:57 GMT -5
Exactly! Bingo! Govt WANTS dependence. If we depend on govt for our Crumb of bread to live, then we have to keep them in power.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Oct 24, 2012 11:17:28 GMT -5
So basically, how come the amount of the money we spend on the needy continues to grow, yet the ranks of the needy never shrink?I think some of it has to do with society's ability to help more. We are constantly searching for better ways to treat illness (physical and mental). We have better technology, better drugs, better treatments. So there's a bigger pool of people who might benefit from some break thru but who cannot afford it. Also, the costs for that technology, drugs, treatments usually do not go down. I think we're better able to keep people (all age groups from new borns on up) alive thru modern medicine - and it's not always the "we saved a life! we're done" kinda thing there's often life long care involved... which potentially puts a burden on one's family and one's society long term. There's lots of ethical and moral issues involved. and there are no easy answers.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 24, 2012 11:24:36 GMT -5
The government is not a self-actualized behemoth... it is an organization made up of people like you and me. Most who work for the government are not always focused on the big picture, but on their own little piece of it (huge corporations are no different). I don't think it's the big dependence conspiracy some make it out to be.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Oct 24, 2012 11:25:14 GMT -5
I think there are a number of contributing factors beyond the stuff happens situations. First, those involved in providing services to the needy are incented to keep people needy, rather than returning needy people to self sufficiency. If I promote self sufficiency, my job providing services to the needy might go away. Second, many people are looking for the easiest way to live. If living on social services provides a lifestyle those people are willing to accept, they become the professionally needy. (We have homeless people in my area, near the west coast, who managed to get here from Ohio and Virginia, but are "unable" to find a way to support themselves. I'm skeptical that someone who can make their way thousands of miles across the country is really not capable of working. I'm more inclined to believe that they have just moved to where they get the most assistance with the least effort.) Third, the government keeps re-defining who is needy. This keeps the "poverty level" at about 15% of the population. That's why people living in poverty in the US often have multiple big, flat screen TV's, personal computers, I-pods, and the like. I'm inclined to believe that poverty is more a definition of the lowest income level than it is a description of a lifestyle with inadequate clothing, food, and shelter.
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InsertCoolName
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Post by InsertCoolName on Oct 24, 2012 11:48:49 GMT -5
Because the poor got together and decided the they were smarter than the wealthy. They are all, every single one of them, laughing their asses off at everyone who works. It's kinda like the game where the deer start hunting the humans. OHHHHHH it's like Robinhood!!!!! Yep. They are all partying it up in the woods. And well beer and drugs...they are NOT cheap. Not to mention the hookers!
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Oct 24, 2012 11:49:07 GMT -5
Until unemployment get better more and more people are going to be needing government assistance. A lot of the well paying blue collar jobs don't seem to exist any longer. These were decent paying jobs that those without a college degree could do and make a decent living. There will always be uneducated poor people in this country. It is just a fact. Even if everyone in this nation had an education there would still be people who would have to work at Walmart.
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greenstone
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Post by greenstone on Oct 24, 2012 11:55:44 GMT -5
I'm inclined to believe that poverty is more a definition of the lowest income level than it is a description of a lifestyle with inadequate clothing, food, and shelter. Exactly. We as a society are continually changing the definition of "basic standard of living" and as a society we are constantly trying to provide the poor segment of the population with the newer amenities that have thus been deemed basic whereas before they were luxuries. For example, now the poor and elderly are provided free cellphones for emergencies. Good idea - of course, but not free, and as little as a decade ago that would have seemed farfetched to many. The sheriff in my county got in trouble for solving jail overcrowding by making prisoner sleep in tents. But oh no, that was inhumane!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 11:58:26 GMT -5
Until unemployment get better more and more people are going to be needing government assistance. A lot of the well paying blue collar jobs don't seem to exist any longer. These were decent paying jobs that those without a college degree could do and make a decent living. There will always be uneducated poor people in this country. It is just a fact. Even if everyone in this nation had an education there would still be people who would have to work at Walmart. those factories are now automated.... machines do what people used to do now we just employ people to fix, maintain, and program the machines and ALL of those jobs require more than a high school education per se we do manufacture here....but not the assembly line stuff employing people like we used to do....now its all mechanical
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Oct 24, 2012 12:01:31 GMT -5
Govt wants dependence. Self sufficiency is a political act. So goverment can afford it? People who don't work, producing nothing except more bums...goverment wants this kind of citizens to feel power??? What kind of bullcrap is it? Who will be feeding goverment if all of us will go on wealfare? I refuse to think of the goverment as 'stupid power hungry.org'!!! ________________________________________ I know ne great person with lots of kids who's wife can only work at daycare because she must take care of the family and making just bit of money. He is workng his butt off. Foodstamps were cut because of his hours. Now he is looking for job that pays cash and to get back on foodstamps as it used to be. And please do not judge. They are so poor - we have a mission now to help them get dressed for winter. For 6 years in US he couldn't afford to buy himself a warm clothes!!! I think he used to have $600+ foodstamps. I am assuming he was making 'good' money working overtimes and all...so they cut his gov help. I am not on postion to say anything - I have NO idea how expensive it is to raise 4 kids.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Oct 24, 2012 12:02:06 GMT -5
Formerly SK is correct, the current economy sucks, and a lot of people who used to be the 'working poor' have slipped down into actual poverty. Despite what a lot of people think, there are a lot of people who would love the chance to work full time at a job, but full time jobs are hard to find, right now.
But even when the economy is good, there is always going to be a certain segment of society that is not employable, either through drug problems, old age (or very young age), low IQ, mental health issues, regular health issues, or just plain lack of motivation, or a combination of all those things. As the Bible says, the poor are always with you. There are just not that many job skills you can teach to an alcoholic with a raging bi-polar disorder, and there are very view treatment options for a guy like that, with no insurance coverage.
I can't think of any 'fixes' that don't require more government money being spent, except to go back to the old 'work houses or begging in the streets' model. As Dickens said, the unemployable need to die and decrease the surface population, I guess.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Oct 24, 2012 12:09:55 GMT -5
'unemployable need to die and decrease the surface population, I guess' interesting. never heard to be put as openly. However if we look at it from perspective of if you don't work - you have no money for food and you die from starvation - than Dickens doesn't seem heartless at all.
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mtman
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Post by mtman on Oct 24, 2012 12:31:32 GMT -5
Message deleted by mmhmm. Take your bigotry elsewhere, mtman.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 24, 2012 12:31:51 GMT -5
The government is not a self-actualized behemoth... it is an organization made up of people like you and me. Most who work for the government are not always focused on the big picture, but on their own little piece of it (huge corporations are no different). I don't think it's the big dependence conspiracy some make it out to be. I don't think every person in the government wants that, but I think some parties and people do. Some of them are very powerful. What better way to garantee a cohort of grateful voters than to have them dependent on you to feed, house, and clothe them, and give them medical coverage?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 24, 2012 12:33:00 GMT -5
That seems like a pretty cynical way to look at it (and I say this as a pretty cynical person).
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 24, 2012 12:35:17 GMT -5
I think how we define poverty is strange. We attach an income to it, instead of looking at actual living conditions. To me, poverty is having inadequate or not enough food, clothing or shelter. Not if you make less than $X.
It really doesn't take much to keep a person alive. A room, a meal or two a day, and water is all anyone needs to have to be kept alive.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Oct 24, 2012 12:36:55 GMT -5
Well, the way I was raised was pretty simple - you want rights, you have to have responsibility. Now, when I say that word, many, including my DH view it as cold-heartness, I've been called a bitch (not by my DH), harsh and a few other things.
Any time "I" ask a question as to why a person can't do A,B or C I hear all kinds of reasons, statistics, explanation and at the end - it never fails - I am usually told that I simply don't understand or that I am a bitch.
So, to answer OP - it will never be enough, bc it's not politically correct or socially acceptable to say "no" anymore
Lena
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Oct 24, 2012 12:38:49 GMT -5
Message deleted by mmhmm. Quoted a post that has been deleted. Please, people, don't quote this filth. Report it! Thanks.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 24, 2012 13:50:31 GMT -5
The government is not a self-actualized behemoth... it is an organization made up of people like you and me. Most who work for the government are not always focused on the big picture, but on their own little piece of it (huge corporations are no different). I don't think it's the big dependence conspiracy some make it out to be. I don't think every person in the government wants that, but I think some parties and people do. Some of them are very powerful. What better way to garantee a cohort of grateful voters than to have them dependent on you to feed, house, and clothe them, and give them medical coverage? I think that is a short-sighted view & I really don't think any politicians hold that view despite people claiming as such. Most people in poverty would love anyone that managed to actually get them out of poverty & out of the cycle of dependence & got them great careers with a future. A politician that did that would earn far more votes than any reasonable welfare policy.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 24, 2012 13:53:04 GMT -5
Because the poor got together and decided the they were smarter than the wealthy. They are all, every single one of them, laughing their asses off at everyone who works. Most poor people I know on welfare are actually extremely jealous of people like me. They would love to have my job & my income. The problem is our education system doesn't teach them that this is even an option. Most think that I got here through luck or rich parents (HA!) or something else they don't have. They would love my life, but in their world view it isn't an option for them.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 24, 2012 13:53:55 GMT -5
I live in a lilly white area, and there are plenty of whites adept at scamming the system. It's not relegated solely to those with more pigment in their skin. I also don't believe everyone getting benefits is a scammer. *Please don't quote filth. Report it. Thanks. mmhmm, Administrator*
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 24, 2012 14:03:58 GMT -5
"I think that is a short-sighted view & I really don't think any politicians hold that view despite people claiming as such. Most people in poverty would love anyone that managed to actually get them out of poverty & out of the cycle of dependence & got them great careers with a future. A politician that did that would earn far more votes than any reasonable welfare policy."
And I think that gets to the heart of the problem. Many in poverty would love SOMEONE ELSE (government for example) to get them out of poverty and the cycles of dependence and independence with great careers with a future. But that's the problem, they keep voting and waiting for someone else to ride in and fix their lives so they won't be poor anymore.
Fixing poverty starts with with people wanting better and working towards it. Waiting for other people to fix your propblems for you isn't goint to help you.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 24, 2012 14:08:23 GMT -5
Speaking as someone who used to live in poverty, many in poverty simply don't have any concept of what they would need to do to solve their problems. It's as Angel described - they'd love to have her job/life, but wouldn't have the first clue how to accomplish it.
Luckily I was raised by someone who highly valued education. If my mom had thought college was for suckers, or for "uppity" people (and I know a LOT of people who feel this way), I would probably be living a very different life.
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mtman
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Post by mtman on Oct 24, 2012 14:20:06 GMT -5
I live in a lilly white area, and there are plenty of whites adept at scamming the system. True.....But the percentage of minorities receiving benefits is much higher than for whites.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 14:23:56 GMT -5
Many times, working makes people's situation worse. I agree that this is wrong, and should only be a temporary thing, but the reality is that working does cause you to lose services at a non-comparable amount.
My DS got a job to save to buy himself a beater. His part-time job lost us $375 a month in FS. He only makes about $600 a month making minimum wage, and spends half of that on gasoline to get to work/school. And, if he saves any money we have to report it to the Human Services people and will lose our Medicaid until he spends it...
Unless I find a job with the government or a local hospital, I can count on never having employer sponsored health care. A private policy was quoted to me at nearly $2K a month. I won't likely even earn that much a month... Once I go back to working, ACA would allow us to stay on Medicaid, if ACA is overturned then we will have no coverage because I will no longer have a minor child.
I have two kids who have gone through HS recently. Neither of them were ever required to write a report longer than TWO PAGES. EVER. Not in elementary school or high school. When I asked the teacher about this I was told that the kids just won't write reports, so they make posters instead so more kids will be likely to be able to do the work. I am 100% serious.
We graduate (if they finish) people without basic educational skills and then wonder why crime and drug abuse is on the rise. What are all these 20 somethings going to do for a living when their parents kick them out?
I also think the "needs" of people are way out of whack. I need a roof. I need some food. I need a bit of heat when it is 10 degrees outside. I do not need internet, tv, i-anythings, and all the rest.
My contract job is coming to an end, so I am now actively looking for more work, both online and locally. This is what I do when I can't afford food - I am scrambling looking for a job and staying up all night hoping I find what I need. When the FS card is refilled every month and the money is handed to you, you do not have as much of a feeling of need to go look to help yourself. And, after long enough, you start to doubt if you even can..
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doxieluvr
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Post by doxieluvr on Oct 24, 2012 14:24:25 GMT -5
There is need because employers do not pay salaries that can support families.
This has been a huge topic in my office lately. Everyone else is republican. I am as socialist as they come. My boss was shocked when i told hom I did not get paid much less on unemployment. As a single mom, i would qualify for all kinds of assistance on the salary he pays. If employers do not pay decent wages to single moms, how do you expect them to not need assistance?
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