AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 22, 2012 17:13:59 GMT -5
Oh, am I going to the game? Nah. I have a better view at home.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Oct 22, 2012 17:29:04 GMT -5
What does "VC" stand for? Venture capitalist? Or Vulture capitalist if we are talking about Mitt and Bain.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 22, 2012 18:05:56 GMT -5
What does "VC" stand for? Venture capitalist? Or Vulture capitalist if we are talking about Mitt and Bain. I thought Mr. Romney's job at Bain was to buy companies, run up astronomical debts, and then walk away with a respectable profit while the companies and their creditors imploded into flaming heaps of slag. I didn't realize this was called "venture capitalism".
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 22, 2012 18:09:51 GMT -5
ROFL, Virgil. I think that's what some call it. It's not what I've called it.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 22, 2012 18:12:41 GMT -5
Off topic, but you might want to consider making more stops on those long trips, paul. Get out of the car and walk around for 15-20 minutes before you take off again.
/off topic Please continue slicing, dicing, twisting and spinning, folks.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Oct 22, 2012 18:14:08 GMT -5
Man is this thread obnoxious.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 22, 2012 18:19:02 GMT -5
What does "VC" stand for? Venture capitalist? Or Vulture capitalist if we are talking about Mitt and Bain. And without them, the landscape would be littered with the smelly carcasses of failed enterprises.
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usaone
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Post by usaone on Oct 22, 2012 18:22:33 GMT -5
Romney is still down 3% in Ohio.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 22, 2012 18:22:37 GMT -5
Off topic, but you might want to consider making more stops on those long trips, paul. Get out of the car and walk around for 15-20 minutes before you take off again. /off topic Please continue slicing, dicing, twisting and spinning, folks. Believe me, I know it's nothing to mess with. Could have been way, way worse. I was impatient, wanted to get the heck out of Charlotte and so I worked 11 hours at a desk, probably got nice and dehydrated, and then got in the car and drove 6 hours to Lexington on my way to Chicago. Slept five hours, got back in the car and drove the rest of the way. Part of me knew it was a bad idea at the time I did it- pushed myself way too hard and set myself up for it. But you know how it is. It's all hypothetical. Until it happens. Like the Romney landslide.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 22, 2012 18:29:20 GMT -5
Romney is still down 3% in Ohio. Ohio is tied according to the same folks that made waves calling Florida, Virginia, and really- do I even have to say North Carolina like it was ever gonna happen?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 22, 2012 18:30:59 GMT -5
Or Vulture capitalist if we are talking about Mitt and Bain. I thought Mr. Romney's job at Bain was to buy companies, run up astronomical debts, and then walk away with a respectable profit while the companies and their creditors imploded into flaming heaps of slag. I didn't realize this was called "venture capitalism". That's the claim. There's very little by way of evidence that Romney was a part of any such thing.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Oct 22, 2012 18:35:52 GMT -5
I thought Mr. Romney's job at Bain was to buy companies, run up astronomical debts, and then walk away with a respectable profit while the companies and their creditors imploded into flaming heaps of slag. I didn't realize this was called "venture capitalism". That's the claim. There's very little by way of evidence that Romney was a part of any such thing. Of course what is conveniently left out are the 100s of companies and 1000s of jobs were saved.... I'll toss in the millions made for pension plans and 401Ks... But I digress...
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 22, 2012 18:46:09 GMT -5
I thought Mr. Romney's job at Bain was to buy companies, run up astronomical debts, and then walk away with a respectable profit while the companies and their creditors imploded into flaming heaps of slag. I didn't realize this was called "venture capitalism". That's the claim. There's very little by way of evidence that Romney was a part of any such thing. The documentary the Gingrich campaign put out, "When Mitt Romney Came to Town", documented three cases of American companies being acquired and driven into the dirt while Mr. Romney was at the helm of Bain Capital. The fact that the companies failed spectacularly and Bain executives walked away with exorbitant profits is a simple matter of fact. What the documentary failed to show to my satisfaction was Mr. Romney's specific involvement in each of the cases. And, to an extent, more evidence that the companies were salvageable prior to the takeovers. Acquiring and dismantling productive companies to turn a quick profit is not (by any sane assessment) a boon to the US economy or to US citizens.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 22, 2012 18:47:38 GMT -5
That's the claim. There's very little by way of evidence that Romney was a part of any such thing. Of course what is conveniently left out are the 100s of companies and 1000s of jobs were saved.... I'll toss in the millions made for pension plans and 401Ks... But I digress... I believe the success rate at Bain under Romney was 82%.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Oct 22, 2012 18:49:50 GMT -5
believe the success rate at Bain under Romney was 82%.
....and Obama's success rate with govt venture capital?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 22, 2012 18:50:51 GMT -5
That's the claim. There's very little by way of evidence that Romney was a part of any such thing. The documentary the Gingrich campaign put out, "When Mitt Romney Came to Town", documented three cases of American companies being acquired and driven into the dirt while Mr. Romney was at the helm of Bain Capital. The fact that the companies failed spectacularly and Bain executives walked away with exorbitant profits is a simple matter of fact. What the documentary failed to show to my satisfaction was Mr. Romney's specific involvement in each of the cases. And, to an extent, more evidence that the companies were salvageable prior to the takeovers. Acquiring and dismantling productive companies to turn a quick profit is not (by any sane assessment) a boon to the US economy or to US citizens. That was the documentary that sidetracked, and derailed Newt who is an otherwise sensible man but who got caught up in his own ego and went for the politics of personal destruction. It's not exactly told by a disinterested third party, nor is it told by people who have the big picture. The truth about many businesses Bain went into were already killed by onerous government regulations, and taxes and Bain helped make the best of a bad situation. Unwinding businesses murdered by government is a job someone's gotta do.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 22, 2012 18:57:17 GMT -5
Of course what is conveniently left out are the 100s of companies and 1000s of jobs were saved.... I'll toss in the millions made for pension plans and 401Ks... But I digress... I believe the success rate at Bain under Romney was 82%. The Washington Post, which hopefully you'll agree isn't terribly left-leaning, rates that claim as "Three Pinocchios" on their lie scale. The explanation is here. A relevant excerpt (bold by me) is: The operative words in the Bain statement are “under our control.” As long as Bain owned less than 50 percent — often the case if there had been a public share offering — then the success or failure apparently would not end up in Bain’s statistics.
Regarding the assertion that 80 percent of the investments yielded rising revenues, the Romney campaign directed us to Bain Capital. We asked for an accounting of the 350 firms and their revenue gain. Charlyn Lusk, a Bain spokeswoman, said she would answer our questions but then maintained radio silence, though not before asking us to correct the Wall Street Journal’s 22 percent figure with the dubious 5 percent claim.
Here’s why the 80 percent figure is problematic: It tells you almost nothing about the success or failure of these companies. In fact, it is almost surprising that the figure is not nearly 100 percent.
The Bain statement is so vague and imprecise that, in theory, revenues could grow in a single year, but fall in other years, and still be claimed as a growth in revenues. Moreover, the statistic takes no account of whether the business ultimately failed, despite revenue growth, because under Bain’s direction it had taken on too much debt.
... They then go on to provide various examples of obvious failures that Bain would count as "successes" per their published statement. :-\
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 22, 2012 18:57:39 GMT -5
Wait a minute- whoa! I didn't catch all the details the first time I watched it. Right after they have a moderator talking in ominous tones about what capitalism in the wrong hands can do to people, they show a random bearded guy saying, "Mitt Romney? Them Guys? They don't care who I am." and then they have an old lady who clearly states, "He's for small businesses? No he ain't. No he's not." and her friend says, "You gonna be on a hit list, you know that?" Whoa! Well, that settles it. This is no propaganda piece, but a serious expose! They should arrest Mitt Romney for crimes against the public interest!
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 22, 2012 19:00:55 GMT -5
I believe the success rate at Bain under Romney was 82%. The Washington Post, which hopefully you'll agree isn't terribly left-leaning, rates that claim as "Three Pinocchios" on their lie scale. The explanation is here. A relevant excerpt (bold by me) is: The operative words in the Bain statement are “under our control.” As long as Bain owned less than 50 percent — often the case if there had been a public share offering — then the success or failure apparently would not end up in Bain’s statistics.
Regarding the assertion that 80 percent of the investments yielded rising revenues, the Romney campaign directed us to Bain Capital. We asked for an accounting of the 350 firms and their revenue gain. Charlyn Lusk, a Bain spokeswoman, said she would answer our questions but then maintained radio silence, though not before asking us to correct the Wall Street Journal’s 22 percent figure with the dubious 5 percent claim.
Here’s why the 80 percent figure is problematic: It tells you almost nothing about the success or failure of these companies. In fact, it is almost surprising that the figure is not nearly 100 percent.
The Bain statement is so vague and imprecise that, in theory, revenues could grow in a single year, but fall in other years, and still be claimed as a growth in revenues. Moreover, the statistic takes no account of whether the business ultimately failed, despite revenue growth, because under Bain’s direction it had taken on too much debt.
... They then go on to provide various examples of obvious failures that Bain would count as "successes" per their published statement. :-\ Fair point, but then just as vague are claims that "Mitt Romney's job was to buy companies, run up astronomical debts, and then walk away with a respectable profit while the companies and their creditors imploded into flaming heaps of slag. How is that statement measured, or quantified in any serious way?
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 22, 2012 19:03:30 GMT -5
I agree both these statements are true. But neither have I seen any credible evidence that Bain saved any jobs, pensions, or companies as a net result of their actions. Their modus operandi, from absolutely everything I've read about them, is to pump and , leaving creditors holding the bag. And you'll forgive me for saying so, but Mr. Romney strikes me as the kind of man who wouldn't lose any sleep even if 100% of Bain's ventures failed, so long as the number on the bottom line of the Bain quarterly report was printed in black.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 22, 2012 19:05:51 GMT -5
But seriously- I'm 2:06 minutes into re-watching the video at and there hasn't been a single substantive statement made yet. I watched it before, and even though I favored Newt, and did NOT like (and still don't particularly like) Mitt Romney and even then I was mystified by Newt's tactics. I felt then it was a Michael Moore style hit piece and I hoped it wouldn't be the reason Newt won because if it was, it would create problems for generations. You don't attack Capitalism as a Republican. It's just not done. That's not what being a Reagan Republican is about, and I think Newt knows better- it was a desperate move.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 22, 2012 19:07:37 GMT -5
It's a reflection of the fact that Mr. Romney's opponents give specific examples of Bain's failures, while in response Bain releases an "80%" figure as opaque as a six-foot-thick lead wall. Furthermore, when a newspaper discovers that several companies likely included in this figure are in reality also catastrophic failures, it does seed doubt in one's mind. :-\ It's not a particularly "meaty" documentary in many respects. But you have to weight that against the average voter's tolerance for facts and figures over raw drama. *lol* It's America. You people like your drama.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 22, 2012 19:10:47 GMT -5
I agree both these statements are true. But neither have I seen any credible evidence that Bain saved any jobs, pensions, or companies as a net result of their actions. Their modus operandi, from absolutely everything I've read about them, is to pump and , leaving creditors holding the bag. And you'll forgive me for saying so, but Mr. Romney strikes me as the kind of man who wouldn't lose any sleep even if 100% of Bain's ventures failed, so long as the number on the bottom line of the Bain quarterly report was printed in black. I make a good deal of my own money unwinding lousy deals, and bad situations. That's what I do as a buyer of distressed real estate. I've papered up a property or two in my time, turned around and used that money to buy other properties and thought about the fact that if the worst happened, and I defaulted on the loans and the first property went back to the bank-- I wouldn't care too much. So, it's not a huge stretch for me to think that you could be right about your assessment of Romney. The thing is- it doesn't trouble me much, either. The person MOST responsible for a loan is not the borrower, but the underwriter.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 22, 2012 19:25:20 GMT -5
The ironic thing is that even if Mr. Romney's experience with gutting failing enterprises makes him ideally suited to tacking the US's untenable financial situation, he still won't have the political capital to do anything. Assuming he does win the presidency, when America gets even the slightest taste of austerity, the Democrats will win back the House in 2014 with such an overwhelming majority it will make Republicans' heads spin. It's the nature of the political beast.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 22, 2012 19:32:37 GMT -5
Oh, I think the political capital of the GOP has been greatly underestimated. Easy to call 2010 a fluke- at least on the surface. After Romney wins in a popular and electoral vote landslide, the picture will be clearer, and the path forward easier. Granted, Romney will have to be dragged kicking and screaming to many policies-- unless he really has moved to the right, which I don't believe and won't believe until I see it.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 22, 2012 19:34:41 GMT -5
A bigger worry for me is the GOP loses big in 2014 because they DID NOT cut spending. I think Americans are ready for the truth, they just want someone to say it. How else can you explain the liberal hysteria over Scott Walker's modest reforms in Wisconsin? Or their fear of Paul Ryan?
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 22, 2012 19:55:58 GMT -5
But seriously- I'm 2:06 minutes into re-watching the video at and there hasn't been a single substantive statement made yet. the first statement is this: "capitalism made America great". that is not substantive?
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 22, 2012 19:58:45 GMT -5
Romney is still down 3% in Ohio. what is interesting is that Obama has never lead by more than 6% or less than 2.5%. this is the best position Romney has been in all year long, and it is NOT good enough to win. there are a lot of really good demographic reasons why this is the case. it is really foolish to ignore them.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 22, 2012 20:03:55 GMT -5
A bigger worry for me is the GOP loses big in 2014 because they DID NOT cut spending. I think Americans are ready for the truth, they just want someone to say it. How else can you explain the liberal hysteria over Scott Walker's modest reforms in Wisconsin? Or their fear of Paul Ryan? The liberal media is giving you a small foretaste of the unholy rage of the American people when their benefits are cut. The public workers issue in Wisconsin was nothing. A small cut that would ultimately affect less than 2% of the state population, directly and indirectly. Try it with seniors, or the poor, or federal employees, or any group that affects more than 2% of the US population, and you need only look at Europe to gauge the public reaction. You're deluded if you think you'll fare any better. And what we're seeing in Europe now—shutdowns, perpetual riots, 50% youth unemployment, threats of secession and revolution—isn't a reaction to actual austerity. It's a reaction to the threat of the first wave of austerity. I know that you, usaone, and DJ in particular have this romantic notion of Americans as people who can buckle down and put their nose to the grindstone when times get tough. And this is true—to an extent. But I maintain that none of you has the slightest conception of how deeply the cuts will have to go, or how quickly your countrymen will revolt against them, be damned the consequences.
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Post by usaone on Oct 22, 2012 20:29:12 GMT -5
We will be fine.
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