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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 14:48:17 GMT -5
The only 'side' I'm on is my kids. I have said about 100 times that I'm not anti vaccine... I'm anti 24 inoculations in the first year of life... I do check sources for bias... All of them, I don't blindly follow anyone... Including a doc or the FDA or whatever...
And I think I'm about done cause this is just pissing me off at this point... You do whatever you think is right, and while I don't plan on having any more, I'll counsel anyone to make their own, researched, informed decisions for what is best for themselves and their families.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Oct 1, 2012 14:48:42 GMT -5
I talked to my grandmother about this once and she said if you had ever seen a child die of pertussis or your friend end up in an iron lung, the risks associated with getting vaccinations would be moot to you. She vaccinated my dad in a heartbeat for polio and would do it again. Not saying that you should not be involved and ask questions. However the internet seems to have made people think they are experts in everything and apparently schools are doing a horrible job of teaching how to validate a source and confirm it is reliable. Just because source X says something you don't agree with doesnt' automatically mean source Y is some altrusic source that is determined to share the truth with the world. Source Y can have its own biases, agendas that fuel it's research and results. are you claiming that in every single case the risk of not vaccinating outweighs the risk of vaccinating? and that any parent who doesn't give a particular vaccination is just too stupid to understand the real risk and can't weigh risk versus benefit? I really don't understand this just trust the doctor mentality. My DH had an UNNECESSARY SHOULDER SURGERY because we just trusted the doctors. It also was an additional year and a half of pain he has gone through because of that misdiagnosis. We do vaccinate. We did not do it on the prescribed schedule. My DH and his siblings all had adverse reactions to vaccines. I was not willing to give more than 2 at a time. Based on the information from my MIL about DH's history with the vaccines and based on talking to pediatrician, we decided that for us the schedule given by the CDC was not the right decision.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 14:49:14 GMT -5
Nothing is perfect.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 14:51:15 GMT -5
There is a lot of fear and misconceptions about vaccines. I do think the Academy of Pediatrics should really understand the parents concerns and propose alternate immunization schedules at later ages, etc. I think that would give parents more time to think all this through and really make the decision they feel is the best versus slamming babies with tons of shots in the first few months.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 1, 2012 14:51:50 GMT -5
No, I never even considered evaluating a source for bias... WTF?
You should. Even if something is on the web, by some of the reliable places you've described, the absolute first thing I do is go into the references and take a look at the sources of their information.
If it has no references, I give it very little credence. If it is referenced, I take a look at the references - and pay attention as to whether the journal that's referenced is either peer reviewed or vanity press.
There is so much crap online these days that this is just one way of trying to wade through the bullshit.
BTW.....people produce crap to congressional committees. And unfortunately, congressional committees many times are too stupid to figure it out. So I wouldn't use that information as a credible reference either.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 14:54:57 GMT -5
Mich, I'm sorry if you missed the sarcasm, I don't have emoticons on the phone, thought WTF would suffice. I do evaluate sources. I've been a professional freelance researcher, I'm not a moron.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 1, 2012 14:55:50 GMT -5
There is a lot of fear and misconceptions about vaccines. I do think the Academy of Pediatrics should really understand the parents concerns and propose alternate immunization schedules at later ages, etc. I think that would give parents more time to think all this through and really make the decision they feel is the best versus slamming babies with tons of shots in the first few months.
Shooby....how long does a parent need? When you get pregnant, there is a reasonable expectation that needing to know about vaccinations is going to be on the agenda. So at the very least, a parent has 9 months to figure it out.
Secondly, the schedule is there for a reason. A couple months between vaccinations gives optimal immune response. We do this when we make antibody in lab animals. It's not much different in humans. You really can't change biology and how the body mounts an immune response.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 1, 2012 14:57:04 GMT -5
while I don't plan on having any more, I'll counsel anyone to make their own, researched, informed decisions for what is best for themselves and their families.
Believe it or not if you choose but I actually agree with you.
My stance is part of being informed is you have to examine the funding, source and what that person stands to get out of it on BOTH sides of the coin.
I have to sign a finanical disclosure every time we start a new project. If I am in any size/shape/form recieving compensation from a company involved in our study (even if I own stock) I have to dismiss myself from the study.
I could be the most honest person on the planet but my PI and anyone else involved can't take my word for it. I have to be removed.
I'll be honest that I am not good at explaining how what I do when it comes to research works, it'd take more time on a message board than I have to spend.
But it's something I try very hard to do no matter how much it pisses people off.
Psuedoscience is gaining huge amounts of ground in every aspect of scientific research right now. I suggest reading Unscientific America, he does a better job of explaining it than I do.
The breaks need to be put on and people like me and others in research who whether you choose to believe it are NOT out to push a giant conspiracy on people need to speak up and start explaining what we do and how it works.
You can choose to dismiss me all you want, that is totally your right, but I'm still going to keep harping on it even though it makes me want to bang my head against the desk.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 1, 2012 14:57:32 GMT -5
Mich, I'm sorry if you missed the sarcasm, I don't have emoticons on the phone, thought WTF would suffice. I do evaluate sources. I've been a professional freelance researcher, I'm not a moron.
/sarcasm works too.....
And some of the links that you posted have questionable references. Yes, I looked at them, which is why I wrote what I did.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 14:57:51 GMT -5
Congressional testimony was a piece of the puzzle. I think reading wide is the best thing. For instance I'm not big into Scientology, but think sone of their anti- psych drug work is laudable for instance. Aaps vaccine testimony was succinct, if the group is rather fringe... Not sure why rand Paul is a member?? ...
I also read stuff that isn't easy to link to these boards.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 14:59:59 GMT -5
I wasn't dismissing you drama. I was dismissing your attitude.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Oct 1, 2012 15:00:06 GMT -5
We did an alternative schedule, but we still kept the prescribed time difference between the vaxs. We did shots only appt every other month with our WBV at the prescribed times (so we were in every month). It was a pain, but worth it for us.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 1, 2012 15:06:01 GMT -5
I wasn't dismissing you drama. I wad dismissing your attitude.
I apologize if I made anyone think I thought they were stupid.
I'm not the best at communicating what I do for a living, it's really hard to cram what I want to say in to a post and I'd spend more time than I have trying to get it all written in such a way that I don't end up sounding like a dick.
It's also a hot button issue for me for a variety of reasons.
Doesn't mean I won't stop posting about it though. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 15:06:03 GMT -5
With the exception of including testimony from aaps, what source did you question? Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 15:08:49 GMT -5
Drama, if someone suggested add or some other form of psych meds for Gwen, would you follow the doc's recommendation blindly? What about if the gave you a lice medication you found out had been banned in Europe? Just curious. I'm calming down now.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 1, 2012 15:14:16 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 15:16:00 GMT -5
Yes, that was the aaps testimony.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 1, 2012 15:18:44 GMT -5
Mercola is a quack. He was given awards on Quackwatch.
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kittensaver
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We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
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Post by kittensaver on Oct 1, 2012 15:20:44 GMT -5
Mercola is a quack. He was given awards on Quackwatch. I LOVE Dr. Mercola's website. I think he's spot-on. Quackwatch is funded by Big Pharma! Follow the money . . . .
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 1, 2012 15:20:54 GMT -5
The psych meds, of course not. I've never once said to blindly follow a doctor's recommendation. I'd do my own research into the matter because I have access to stuff that most people do not. In all odds I am going to find some against and some for it.
It'd depend on the evidence for each side and whether myself (and DH) decided that whatever benefits come with treatment outweight the risks.
As far as the lice medication it would depend on why it was banned in Europe. They have their own system which has just as many holes/flaws in it as ours does. I am not going to take their's at face value anymore than I do ours.
I do this stuff for a living, I've never once said to follow a doctor blindly or that the FDA is perfect. Everyone should do their own research.
MY huge beef when it comes to the subject is the majorty of people are not doing the RIGHT KIND of research. There is a lot more that goes into research than just finding a source on the internet and holding it up saying "neener neener" but if I had a dime for every person who has done exactly that I would be able to pay for Gwen's college several times over.
It doesn't mean that the other side is correct either. Nothing is proven or disproven in science, you can't 100% prove or disprove anything. You can only collect evidence for and against. 100 years from now I could be proven wrong on a lot of things.
But you gotta know your research methods/scientific process. Because there is A LOT of psuedoscience out there and it is now even more easily accesible thanks to the internet. They're very adept at cloaking themselves in the guise of credibility, to the point of where it can be hard even for trained people to spot it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 15:25:46 GMT -5
Dr. Mercola - who's received numerous warnings from the FDA? The guy who thinks HIV doesn't cause AIDS?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 1, 2012 15:28:36 GMT -5
Dr. Mercola - who's received numerous warnings from the FDA? The guy who thinks HIV doesn't cause AIDS? Yeah....a quack. I just had to diffuse another one of his theories that root canals cause cancer in my hip group. A woman had an infected tooth and was reluctant to get it treated because of his 'suggestions'. Apparently Mercola's never had a couple of hip prostheses removed due to infection.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 15:30:45 GMT -5
I didn't quote him, the link just happened to be on his page. I did include a link to all the testimony later.
But to be fair... Lots of mainstream pharma get warnings from FDA every year as well... Doesn't usually amount to much...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 15:33:15 GMT -5
Dr. Mercola is a member of AAPS. The doctor in the testimony is a member of AAPS. Do you not see the connection between quacks promoting wrong information on vaccines?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 1, 2012 15:33:56 GMT -5
I pulled this from wiki on Dr. Mercoa
He has argued instead that the manifestations of AIDS (including opportunistic infections and death) may be the result of "psychological stress" brought on by the belief that HIV is harmful.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I suppose I can laugh at him and then cry when I realize people believe him.
It also lists that he sells and promotes dietary supplements.
Which automatically e puts any research he supports under a microscope because he directly benefits from any research that says you need to follow the type of diet he is advocating.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 1, 2012 15:47:26 GMT -5
I LOVE Dr. Mercola's website. I think he's spot-on. ---------------- He wants people to live on his very expensive supplements, not real food. Quack.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 1, 2012 15:47:58 GMT -5
I think he's dangerous.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Oct 1, 2012 15:48:56 GMT -5
To each his/her own.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 1, 2012 15:52:24 GMT -5
He wants people to live on his very expensive supplements, not real food.
oooh are they like the gum in Willy Wonka or the pills in The Jetsons?
I was reading thru his wiki page and the thing is, at face value a lot of his stuff does make sense. When I started digging deeper that's when you find the crazy and figure out this guy is certifiable.
That's why psuedoscience is so dangerous. It's very easy to wrap your crazy into a perfectly logical, reasonable sounding package. Majority of people don't dig much farther than that.
Snake oil salesman worked the exact same way. Dr. Sears, Dr. Mercona, Dr. Oz are all modern day snake oil salesman.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 1, 2012 15:59:57 GMT -5
He wants people to live on his very expensive supplements, not real food.oooh are they like the gum in Willy Wonka or the pills in The Jetsons? I was reading thru his wiki page and the thing is, at face value a lot of his stuff does make sense. When I started digging deeper that's when you find the crazy and figure out this guy is certifiable. That's why psuedoscience is so dangerous. It's very easy to wrap your crazy into a perfectly logical, reasonable sounding package. Majority of people don't dig much farther than that. Snake oil salesman worked the exact same way. Dr. Sears, Dr. Mercona, Dr. Oz are all modern day snake oil salesman. No kidding. Scratch the surface and he's nuts. "Avoid all dairy, fruit juices, all grains,etc., but buy my really expensive pills". Not to mention his ridiculous medical claims about AIDS, squalene, you name it. He's been warned by the FDA over and over and over again to stop making these fraudulent claims, but like Peter Popoff the Evangelist who bilks folks out of their hard-earned money, he keeps going. Amazing.
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