mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 23, 2012 15:03:36 GMT -5
Cretinous, you don't have a clue what "Islam teaches". Maybe it's all over the news. How would you know? Reading the Qu'ran helped immensely. |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 15:04:37 GMT -5
Cretinous, you don't have a clue what "Islam teaches";. Shall we undertake an exercise in reviewing the Q'uran, in order to extract the tremendous amount of text embedded therein, that gives the Believer permission to go to war or to commit violence upon one's fellow Man, under condition A or B or C? Shall we compare the teachings of its Founder to those recorded in the Christian New Testament, and seek-out the number of passages in the New Testament, in which the Founder of that religion exorts his followers to war and violence? That might make for a good starting point. Of course, that might belong in the Religion forum, instead, yes? |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 15:06:05 GMT -5
"... Reading the Qu'ran helped immensely." Agreed... I went out to the local Barnes & Noble chain bookstore and picked up a copy and read it cover-to-cover and reflected on it for weeks afterwards... having purchased my copy on September 12, 2011... in pursuit of the old maxim: Know Thine Enemy. |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 15:12:12 GMT -5
"... Depending on the importance of the matter(s) in question, one can (if one wishes to do so) obtain quite a bit more than a modicum of 'current-ness', tony..." Non sequitur, to the point being made. You are basically telling us that you can rely upon your friends to give all of us the most accurate picture because you have chosen friends of various persuations that you can rely upon. I have seen a circular argument that hilarous since my neighbors' dog started chasing his tail again...  |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 23, 2012 15:13:10 GMT -5
I haven't discussed terrorists, Cretinous. I've discussed Muslims. The two are not necessarily synonymous to thinking people. If the discussion is to be about terrorists, it needs to be about terrorists. Terrorists come from all faiths.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2012 15:15:04 GMT -5
I haven't discussed terrorists, Cretinous. I've discussed Muslims. The two are not necessarily synonymous to thinking people. If the discussion is to be about terrorists, it needs to be about terrorists. Terrorists come from all faiths.  |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 23, 2012 15:16:55 GMT -5
"... Reading the Qu'ran helped immensely." Agreed... I went out to the local Barnes & Noble chain bookstore and picked up a copy and read it cover-to-cover and reflected on it for weeks afterwards... having purchased my copy on September 12, 2011... in pursuit of the old maxim: Know Thine Enemy. I read part of it in Indonesia ... the English translation. I read it completely while in Iran. In Saudi, with a dear friend, I read it again with my friend reading from the Arabic while I read from the English translation. There were some profound differences, which we discussed. According to my friend, that's true no matter what language you're reading it in. Like the Christian bible, there are different translations, if you will. |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 15:17:01 GMT -5
I haven't discussed terrorists, Cretinous. I've discussed Muslims. The two are not necessarily synonymous to thinking people. If the discussion is to be about terrorists, it needs to be about terrorists. Terrorists come from all faiths. Indeed, they do... Care to drum-up the demographics on the religious backgrounds of terrorists associated with all major religiously-focused or religion-linked terror incidents of the past couple of decades? Care to take a bet on what religious 'confession' we'll find underlying the vast majority of those? Care to guess where the Smart Vergas Money will be on that one? ;D |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 15:17:34 GMT -5
Agreed... I went out to the local Barnes & Noble chain bookstore and picked up a copy and read it cover-to-cover and reflected on it for weeks afterwards... having purchased my copy on September 12, 2011... in pursuit of the old maxim: Know Thine Enemy. I read part of it in Indonesia ... the English translation. I read it completely while in Iran. In Saudi, with a dear friend, I read it again with my friend reading from the Arabic while I read from the English translation. There were some profound differences, which we discussed. According to my friend, that's true no matter what language you're reading it in. Like the Christian bible, there are different translations, if you will. Indeed, there are. In this context... Would you care to illustrate major passages or passage-groupings within the Q'uran - in which the Founder either exhorts his Followers to war or violence - or in which he tells his Followers that war and violence are permissible under Circumstance A or B or C... In which such passage(s) exist in one or more translations... And in which such passage(s) do NOT exist in one or more translations? Differences in translations deal primarily with minutiae - the small stuff - not the broader, sweeping concepts and mandates and calls to action and exhortations... I'm guessing that you'll find those same copious war-related and violence-permitting passages in virtually all of the translations that might come to mind, so... You'll forgive me if I raise an eyebrow at the injection of Translations in this context... |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 23, 2012 15:18:24 GMT -5
"... Depending on the importance of the matter(s) in question, one can (if one wishes to do so) obtain quite a bit more than a modicum of 'current-ness', tony..." Non sequitur, to the point being made. You are basically telling us that you can rely upon your friends to give all of us the most accurate picture because you have chosen friends of various persuations that you can rely upon. I have seen a circular argument that hilarous since my neighbors' dog started chasing his tail again... I'm much happier and more convinced by getting information the way I get it than I would be by listening to talking heads I don't know expound on that which they don't know. Your mileage may vary.  |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 15:22:28 GMT -5
Non sequitur, to the point being made. You are basically telling us that you can rely upon your friends to give all of us the most accurate picture because you have chosen friends of various persuations that you can rely upon. I have seen a circular argument that hilarous since my neighbors' dog started chasing his tail again... I'm much happier and more convinced by getting information the way I get it than I would be by listening to talking heads I don't know expound on that which they don't know. Your mileage may vary. That is you. Others hold differently. I submit that asking a Muslim whether their faith is more prone to violence than others is about as reliable as asking the opinion of a condemned man upon capital punishment...  People can see for themselves, and use their own common sense, and make up their own minds... You own mileage can be seen to be varying in the here-and-now, apparently. |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 23, 2012 15:49:24 GMT -5
I haven't discussed terrorists, Cretinous. I've discussed Muslims. The two are not necessarily synonymous to thinking people. If the discussion is to be about terrorists, it needs to be about terrorists. Terrorists come from all faiths. If you paid attention to media you might know that Islamic terrorists are killing people and blowing things up lately. I see why you have your opinion. You base your view on your friends and not on things happening in the world. Do you really not see a problem with that? Name a few Buddhist acts of terrorism? How many christian suicide bobbers have there been the last few decades. I dont like christians either, there a bad bunch too, just not killers anymore. Who kills in the name of religion once a week for years besides the Muslims? Cretinous, I'm not going to waste my time trying to teach a rock to knit. I'd just get frustrated and the rock would just sit there. Argue with someone else. I'm not interested. |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 23, 2012 15:51:24 GMT -5
I'm much happier and more convinced by getting information the way I get it than I would be by listening to talking heads I don't know expound on that which they don't know. Your mileage may vary. That is you. Others hold differently. I submit that asking a Muslim whether their faith is more prone to violence than others is about as reliable as asking the opinion of a condemned man upon capital punishment... People can see for themselves, and use their own common sense, and make up their own minds... You own mileage can be seen to be varying in the here-and-now, apparently. Others can hold as they wish. It's not of much interest to me. I decide for me, you decide for you. I'm not about to be bothered with it. You don't want to see anything other than that which you have decided is the way it is. Fine. Cool. Enjoy. I'm down with it. ;D |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 16:13:27 GMT -5
Btw, when I was not here for a little bit earlier I had gone to get pizza. I asked Habib about this. He said, "Death to the infidels.". So I got personal friends and the media on my side.  |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 16:16:13 GMT -5
"... Maybe you can teach Tony. He most likely needs your wisdom too. Good luck." Tony's friggin' hopeless - that dumbass sumnabich ain't ever gonna lern to tukk his hedd inna sand like a proper Islamophile...   ;D |
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Sept 23, 2012 17:16:42 GMT -5
Terrorism isn't about Islam, Christianity or any other religion. You are looking at this through the lens of religion. You need to put on a different pair of glasses for this one.
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 17:33:52 GMT -5
Terrorism isn't about Islam, Christianity or any other religion. You are looking at this through the lens of religion. You need to put on a different pair of glasses for this one. And that is where so many people misdirect their energies in well-intentioned attempts to deflect attention away from the Primary Cause... In truth, this is not about Terrorism... In truth, this is about a Clash of Cultures... The clash of the long-suppressed and long-dormant Common Cultural Stimuli of Islam... As it meets a modern and firmer and more resolved and more self-confident Western Secular Culture than it knew in times past... This is about a 7th Century common-denominator that is still and inextricably dominant in a variety of national and regional and tribal and ethnic cultures... Coming smack-up against a New and Improved Christendom-Gone-Largely-Secular... Trying to deal with 21st Century problems with 7th or 12th Century tools and solutions... And turning to large-scale and globalized Terror as an outward manifestation and early-days tactical weapon of this re-emergent Islam and its re-emergent war upon the Infidels of the world... It is Terror in the NAME of Religion nowadays... It's not Terror Isolated... it's not Terror in a Vacuum... it's Terror on Behalf of Religion... In order to meet the enemy head-on and to deal with him effectively, one must first be capable of recognizing the enemy, and, furthermore, recognize him for what he is... All good-soul'ed, well-intentioned protestations to the contrary notwithstanding... It is impossible to address Radical Militant Islam and the systemic terror which it employs in the name of its vision of God, without looking at it through the lens of Religion... As a matter of fact, in order to identify the enemy and to confront him face to face in this context, utilizing the lens of religion is a prerequisite and absolute necessity... Even though that bothers most good people to no end, to be put into a position wherein they are obliged to do just that... It is what it is... |
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Sept 23, 2012 17:38:10 GMT -5
"it's Terror on Behalf of Religion..."
Nope. You have a good portion of it though... keep going. You are almost there.
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 23, 2012 17:38:21 GMT -5
... It's not Terror Isolated... it's not Terror in a Vacuum... Hell, most of it isn't "Terror" at all. It is street protests. It is assassinations. It is warfare. None of which are "Terror". |
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Sept 23, 2012 17:40:45 GMT -5
"It is Terror in the NAME of Religion nowadays..."
That's because it's much easier to articulate, and a readily available identifier.
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 17:43:10 GMT -5
... It's not Terror Isolated... it's not Terror in a Vacuum... Hell, most of it isn't "Terror" at all. It is street protests. It is assassinations. It is warfare. None of which are "Terror". Fine... I was merely addressing Cereb's focus upon terror... We can simply make that: Aggression in the Name of Religion, rather than Terror... Which encompasses much more than the narrow range of activity defined by Terrorism... Thank you for helping to broaden the scope of concern... Aggression in the Name of Religion... In this case... Aggression in the Name of Islam... There... Semantics problems all-better now... |
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Sept 23, 2012 17:44:40 GMT -5
"As a matter of fact, in ordder to identity the enemy and to confront him face to face in this context, utilizing the lens of religion is a prerequisite and absolute necessity..."
So you believe that the Bible explains the reasoning behind the Westboro Baptist Church nutcases? How about the abortion clinic bombers and abortion doctors who have been terrorized or murdered in the name of Christianity? Does the Bible clear that up for you?
Because dude, that makes absolutely no frigging sense.
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 17:46:58 GMT -5
"As a matter of fact, in ordder to identity the enemy and to confront him face to face in this context, utilizing the lens of religion is a prerequisite and absolute necessity..." So you believe that the Bible explains the reasoning behind the Jonesboro Baptist Church nutcases? How about the abortion clinic bombers and abortion doctors who have been terrorized or murdered in the name of Christianity? Does the Bible clear that up for you? Because dude, that makes absolutely no frigging sense. Whatever in the world are you talking about? When I speak of looking at the problem of Aggression In The Name of Islam... I speak of viewing it as an Islamic issue... And therefore a religiously-focused issue... Rather than a Secular Issue... I was not suggesting to utilize Religion A or B as a filter... I was suggesting a closer look at the religious precepts that cause Muslims to behave in such ways... Perhaps that will be of some help... |
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Sept 23, 2012 17:47:46 GMT -5
Hell, most of it isn't "Terror" at all. It is street protests. It is assassinations. It is warfare. None of which are "Terror". Fine... I was merely addressing Cereb's focus upon terror... We can simply make that: Aggression in the Name of Religion, rather than Terror... Which encompasses much more than the narrow range of activity defined by Terrorism... Thank you for helping to broaden the scope of concern... Aggression in the Name of Religion... In this case... Aggression in the Name of Islam... There... Semantics problems all-better now... No. "terror" wasn't the focus, it was "religion". Please. |
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 23, 2012 17:49:20 GMT -5
Hell, most of it isn't "Terror" at all. It is street protests. It is assassinations. It is warfare. None of which are "Terror". Fine... I was merely addressing Cereb's focus upon terror... We can simply make that: Aggression in the Name of Religion, rather than Terror... There... Semantics problems all-better now... How about this, we call each of them what they are instead of looking for a one name fits all. That way we don't fall victim to the problem of one solution solves all. |
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Sept 23, 2012 17:49:37 GMT -5
"As a matter of fact, in ordder to identity the enemy and to confront him face to face in this context, utilizing the lens of religion is a prerequisite and absolute necessity..." So you believe that the Bible explains the reasoning behind the Jonesboro Baptist Church nutcases? How about the abortion clinic bombers and abortion doctors who have been terrorized or murdered in the name of Christianity? Does the Bible clear that up for you? Because dude, that makes absolutely no frigging sense. Whatever in the world are you talking about? When I speak of looking at the problem of Aggression In The Name of Islam... I speak of viewing it as an Islamic issue... And therefore a religiously-focused issue... Rather than a Secular Issue... I was not suggesting to utilize Religion A or B as a filter... I was suggesting a closer look at the religious precepts that cause Muslims to behave in such ways... Perhaps that will be of some help... Ok, but again, the focus isn't Islam, it's the aggression. |
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Sept 23, 2012 17:51:56 GMT -5
"I was suggesting a closer look at the religious precepts that cause Muslims to behave in such ways."
That ain't it. Try again. You were on the right track for a moment...
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 17:54:25 GMT -5
Fine... I was merely addressing Cereb's focus upon terror... We can simply make that: Aggression in the Name of Religion, rather than Terror... There... Semantics problems all-better now... How about this, we call each of them what they are instead of looking for a one name fits all. That way we don't fall victim to the problem of one solution solves all. Given the levels and intensity in each of these categories, it is both convenient and realistic to assign an umbrella label under which all of these outrages on the part of a single group may be bundled, so that we may gauge the entire breadth and scope of the problem, rather than risk being defeated in detail... As you have so rightly pointed out, this not about Terror in the Name of Islam... The more accurate umbrella-label of "Aggression in the name of Islam" is just what the doctor ordered... |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 17:55:59 GMT -5
"I was suggesting a closer look at the religious precepts that cause Muslims to behave in such ways." That ain't it. Try again. You were on the right track for a moment... No, Cereb... That ain't it in your book... That IS it in mine... World events over the next couple of decades are likely to tell us which one of us more closely described the Challenge du Jour... |
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 23, 2012 17:58:40 GMT -5
"... Ok, but again, the focus isn't Islam, it's the aggression." The focus is the underlying belief system that tells its Believers that it is OK to go war and to kill and maim in the name of their vision of God and in order to advance the spreading of their belief system... Everything else is secondary and a reaction to this nucleus or core... |
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;D
