Pouring Gasoline on the Muslim Fire

[mmhmm]

I don't care if anyone respects a religion, any religion. It's irrelevant to me. Respect for human life is a different thing entirely, as far as I'm concerned. Because another doesn't respect human life doesn't give me carte blanche to follow suit. If I do follow suit in that regard, I've just lowered myself to the level of that which I report to abhor.

[mmhmm]

You don't have a very good understanding of Islam, Cretinous. Your understanding incorporates what you've read in the media. When you've experienced more, you might have a different, more informed view.

[Spellbound454]

Sure.... I live amongst and work with Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus and they are fine.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 23, 2012 12:15:46 GMT -5 @bloomscuzzer said:

If someone said"all" Muslims should be killed, then of course that is wrong.

it is also wrong to suggest that random violence against Muslims is OK.

I find it hard to believe that is not a gross exaggeration of what someone said. Someone here was pushing for a holocaust against the Muslims? I think all people should be bake to freely practice whatever religion they choose.I don't think I or anyone else should be pressured to respect that religion or the people who follow that religion. Islam as I understand it wants to put head scarves on my daughters, limit my granddaughters education and treat my sisters and mother as so much chattel. Not all Muslims want this, but enough that I think the religion bad and a blight.

i think most religions are a blight. i just don't think that Islam is that different than most religions.

[mmhmm]

Sept 23, 2012 12:28:05 GMT -5 @bloomscuzzer said:

Sept 23, 2012 12:20:13 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

You don't have a very good understanding of Islam, Cretinous. Your understanding incorporates what you've read in the media. When you've experienced more, you might have a different, more informed view.

The ones that brougt soup to your mom or the ones you held hands and sang kumbaya with don't really erase the evil done by a suicide bomber.

Maybe if I was as enlightened and noble a person as you I could see the light.

The people who do good in this country don't erase the evil deeds of those who would do evil, either, Cretinous. That does not, however, mean we are all evil because of the actions of a few. If the perpetrator of evil is a Christian (and that has been the case more than once), it doesn't mean all Christians should be held responsible for that act of evil. That would apply to any group of people. The actions of a few evil people should not paint all people of their nation, or their religion, or their culture, or their skin color as evil.

[Spellbound454]

Suicide bombers mostly kill other Muslims.....they are fanatical nutters, what else can you say.
These attacks are lessening.... maybe because those who are stupid enough to do it in the first place are already dead.

Fanatical nutcases can lurk behind any flag.....Shamrock, Lily, Swastika, Star or Crucifix.
The devil can wear them all.

[mmhmm]

Sept 23, 2012 12:28:05 GMT -5 @bloomscuzzer said:

Sept 23, 2012 12:20:13 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

You don't have a very good understanding of Islam, Cretinous. Your understanding incorporates what you've read in the media. When you've experienced more, you might have a different, more informed view.

Of course my understanding incorporates what I read in the media.

Are you saying your understanding doesn't incorporate what you've read in the media?

That's precisely what I'm saying. My knowledge of Islam comes from living amongst Islamic peoples for over twenty years, Cretinous, and maintaining contact with friends made over the years.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 23, 2012 12:33:28 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Suicide bombers mostly kill other Muslims.....they are fanatical nutters, what else can you say.
These attacks are lessening.... maybe because those who are stupid enough to do it in the first place are already dead.

Fanatical nutcases can lurk behind any flag.....Shamrock, Lily, Swastika, Star or Crucifix.
The devil can wear them all.

the proximate targets for suicide terrorism are rarely, if ever, those killed in the action. and they are fanatical, but not insane. there is a strategic logic to it. that actually makes it a LOT easier to fight.

[TonyTiger]

Sept 23, 2012 11:35:24 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

"after further introspection, i have decided that i have more tolerance for the disgusting views of my enemy than for the disgusting views of my allies..."

How positively Neville Chamberlain -ish of you... ;D It fits...

"...i can see how someone might hold that against me, but it is a fact of my nature. of course, i have a rational explanation for WHY this is true for me, but i doubt anyone who likes to bag on Muslims would want to hear it."

Oh, I dunno, I think that a lot of folks would enjoy - maybe even benefit from, one way or another - an articulation of why you would find the Hatred Perspective bubbling-up out of Islam to be preferable to the Sabre Rattling that comes from your own side of the field in response to that Hatred.

Hell, I'm curious myself. It would certainly be entertaining, and it might even shed new and valuable perspective to reinforce the stance, but you've gonna do what you're gonna do.

[mmhmm]

Sept 23, 2012 12:46:16 GMT -5 @bloomscuzzer said:

Sept 23, 2012 12:33:59 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

That's precisely what I'm saying. My knowledge of Islam comes from living amongst Islamic peoples for over twenty years, Cretinous, and maintaining contact with friends made over the years.

That seems like a shallow understanding. You have no historical understanding of Islam? I mean beyond 20 years? You have no understanding of how the Taliban fits in with modern Islam? Or have you met Taliban? You have no understanding of what the rioters in Tony's picture might be mad about? Other then what your Muslim friends tell you?


I know Hajeeb who works at the pizza place, all Muslims must be like him.

ROFL. Forget it.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 23, 2012 12:37:47 GMT -5 @bloomscuzzer said:

Sept 23, 2012 12:28:53 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i think most religions are a blight. i just don't think that Islam is that different than most religions.

Of course it is wrong to suggest random violence against Muslims. I did see that post. I didn't see where someone said "all" Muslims should be killed. I think some make horrible arguments. They resay what people say dishonestly and argue against that. Who was it who said "all" Muslims should be killed?

i never claimed that anyone said all Muslims should be killed. i guess you should ask someone who did.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 23, 2012 12:46:58 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Sept 23, 2012 11:35:24 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

"after further introspection, i have decided that i have more tolerance for the disgusting views of my enemy than for the disgusting views of my allies..."

How positively Neville Chamberlain -ish of you... ;D It fits...

i am not talking about working with radicals and criminals, bro. you are reading too far into that comment.

"...i can see how someone might hold that against me, but it is a fact of my nature. of course, i have a rational explanation for WHY this is true for me, but i doubt anyone who likes to bag on Muslims would want to hear it."

Oh, I dunno, I think that a lot of folks would enjoy - maybe even benefit from, one way or another - an articulation of why you would find the Hatred Perspective bubbling-up out of Islam to be preferable

i never said "preferable", Tony. but i can see that you don't understand, so i will explain it.

to the Sabre Rattling that comes from your own side of the field in response to that Hatred.

Hell, I'm curious myself. It would certainly be entertaining, and it might even shed new and valuable perspective to reinforce the stance, but you've gonna do what you're gonna do.

i am sorry, but i am not here to provide entertainment. i am here to debate matters of interest. if you decide that you are willing to seriously consider my perspective, let me know. otherwise, i have breakfast and chores waiting.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 23, 2012 12:51:13 GMT -5 @bloomscuzzer said:

Sept 23, 2012 12:48:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i never claimed that anyone said all Muslims should be killed. i guess you should ask someone who did.

Mmmm said that was the claim. I don't think anyone said you said that.

cool, then please refrain from citing my posts when asking that question, mmkay?

[Spellbound454]

Maybe both sides should look more inward and sort their own houses out before letting someone else become the object of hate.

Still hating someone else is a useful distraction....especially if things are not so good at home.
We certainly like to bury news. It happens all the time.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 23, 2012 12:54:09 GMT -5 @bloomscuzzer said:

Sept 23, 2012 12:48:36 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

ROFL. Forget it.

You don't do well when people quote you. Which word has different meaning now?

i think i understand mmhmm's problem with your reply.

first of all, she didn't say that it is ONLY her experience that informs her position and lends it authority.

secondly, living in a Muslim country for 2 decades is, i think you will agree, a bit different than buying your midnight beer from Habib. well, at least i am HOPING you would agree.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

[TonyTiger]

I spent years in Europe (Germany mostly, some in the Netherlands and Italy and France) and made a great many friends and acquaintances and associates and am still, to this day, years later, in either regular or sporadic contact with a number of them, online, over the phone, and through the mail.

I have also studied the religious precepts and texts which are their (and my own) heritage and understand something of their long history and their culture and their way of life and their mores and hopes and their family and social and economic life. I'm not an expert, mind you, but I have some basic and servicable understanding of their peoples that proves slightly advantageous to me, in a handful of contexts, when discussing their affairs with someone who has not had such exposure.

But it's not decisive in most contexts and instances and it's a "dated understanding" that is no longer current and that would really require a re-imersion in their midst in order to properly update and to make that 'understanding' dominant and decisive once again in any such conversations.

And, of course, that 'dated understanding' becomes even less valuable when my old friends suffer Revolutionary Springs and overthrow their governments and start terror-bombing their fellow man both near and far and install once-removed Religious Brotherhoods as their Chancellors and Presidents and who start having Continental-caliber Meltdowns and Hissy-Fits because we published a critical movie or book about Jesus or St. Benedict or Joan of Arc or William of Orange or whatever.

Of course, my old friends (those over there who would still be talking to me) will tell me or write to me or assure me that things will quiet down and that what we're seeing on our TV screens does not respresent your average German or Frenchman or Italian or Hollander, but...

That doesn't mean that it's true...

And, of course, it's also possible that I lived there too long... that I'm too emotionally close to the problem... that I can't see past my old fondness and happier memories and the assurances of my friends, to the very real and tremendous dangers that such a movement might post to the broader world - something that a more objective and less experience-saturated and -reliant intellect might have stumbled upon without much effort...

It's a human enough failing - I've been known to drift in that direction myself from time to time, until I shake it off and snap out of it... but, as I begin to put on a few extra years, I do try not to take whatever modest experiences that I've had myself, and lord it over others with less - especially when it's entirely possible that my own, older, past-times experiences might prove more detrimental than helpful to an objective present-day analysis...

[mmhmm]

Such "dated understanding" is kept current through ongoing friendships, trust, and discussion, if one desires to keep current.

[Deleted]

Some thoughts, in no particular order.

People were specifically stating we have a "Muslim-problem" ... they did not say extremist problem, or terrorist problem... the emphasis on the fact that it is all Muslims who are the problem. There were also some very incendiary comments about actions to take.

As far as being more tolerant of an enemy than an ally.... well, some of that is the difference between protecting and advocating for someone's RIGHTS and supporting and promoting someone's CHOICE. As the saying goes, I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. ... However, if you are on my team, I may certainly argue with how you are chosing to make a point (for example. I defend the right of anyone to burn the flag. I cannot think of a situation in which I would urge a group I was involved in to burn a flag as a form or protest... I don't think it is the most effective way to make a point....).


Islam is also much bigger than those who make the news. Would you want someone who was learning about our culture to base their entire opinion on those indivdiuals who generally make the headlines?

[djAdvocate]

Tony- all done with chores and breakfast. i have to leave for band rehearsal in 25 mins, but i have a few to respond to your earlier post.

there is a fundamental logic to my positions on foreign policy that is the essence of my thinking. i am realizing that it informs my thinking in metapolitical issues as well, and this is one of those cases. the principle goes something like this:

i am responsible for the things in which my actions, my say, or my input are key to success. this would include all matters of state for which i am a citizen.

i am NOT responsible for actions which i have no input in making.

so, i should actually abridge what i said earlier to this: TO THE DEGREE that inflammatory statements represent US foreign policy, i am more offended than when they are made against us. i expect more of my nation than to say such things, and other nations should expect more of their governments, as well.

however, having said that, the same is true to the degree which statements do NOT reflect the views of the government- and i should try to keep that in mind. rank idiots of both sides should be ignored. it is only when bad ideas have the force of the US military behind them that i feel as if i have a stake in the argument. to a degree, i expect more of my countrymen than to behave like animals- but i should really try to keep in mind that there are animals everywhere.

[Deleted]

Who said all muslims are good an peacefull? All anyone has said is that not all Muslims are terrorists plotting danger...

[djAdvocate]

Sept 23, 2012 14:21:18 GMT -5 oped said:

Who said all muslims are good an peacefull? All anyone has said is that not all Muslims are terrorists plotting danger...

the CIA and the DOD estimate the size of "militant Islam" to be ca. 50,000 persons. that would be .003%, or 1/300th of 1%. to hear people say that it is 10-50% is so ludicrous as to be considered absurd.

[TonyTiger]

Sept 23, 2012 13:59:18 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Such "dated understanding" is kept current through ongoing friendships, trust, and discussion, if one desires to keep current.

Oh, I'll happily agree that one can attain a modicum of 'current-ness' through old friends, but that does not render it accurate nor reliable in the whole, or at-large; depending, as it does, upon a microcosm or narrowly-blinkered snapshot peek through the eyes of old friends who have a vested emotional interest in portraying themselves and their culture in a certain fashion.

Because overseas friends say that it is so, does not automatically render it thus.

[Deleted]

Lol... so actuallly knowing Muslim people is less informative than watching extremists on the news. Do you also get your information on Americans/Christians/whatever group based on what criminal element among them might make the news?

Yes dj... very small number. No one group, not Christians either, are all good or all bad or should be painted with generalized sterotype based on a minority faction.

[Deleted]

So, you too are painting all Muslims with one brush. I think your understanding of Islam, from wherever it is coming, has been less than comprehensive.

[mmhmm]

Sept 23, 2012 14:26:41 GMT -5 TonyTiger said:

Sept 23, 2012 13:59:18 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Such "dated understanding" is kept current through ongoing friendships, trust, and discussion, if one desires to keep current.

Oh, I'll happily agree that one can attain a modicum of 'current-ness' through old friends, but that does not render it accurate nor reliable in the whole, or at-large; depending, as it does, upon a microcosm or narrowly-blinkered snapshot peek through the eyes of old friends who have a vested emotional interest in portraying themselves and their culture in a certain fashion.

Because overseas friends say that it is so, does not automatically render it thus.

Depending on the importance of the matter(s) in question, one can (if one wishes to do so) obtain quite a bit more than a modicum of "currentness", tony. Of course, first one's mind must be open to the possibility that one doesn't know everything. Secondly, one must have friends of different persuasions from whom to draw information on current affairs in their respective countries. Then, thirdly, one must have enough common sense not to pay any attention to those who have no clue what they're talking about but love to see their screeds in print. Once those three steps are in place, learning is actually possible.

[mmhmm]

Cretinous, you don't have a clue what "Islam teaches".

[Deleted]

I read for starters.

[Deleted]

I don't read 'the media'.

I do think actually knowing people who you are trying to judge is a pretty good way to get to know the issues.

Can you generalize to all people in a group ? No... but then overgeneralizing seems to be a common occurance here.

[TonyTiger]

Sept 23, 2012 14:20:36 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

"...there is a fundamental logic to my positions on foreign policy that is the essence of my thinking..."

Believe it or not, the same may be said of a number of people whose positions are far-apart from your own in various great matters yet which are no less well-considered nor logical in their own right, but I risk restating the obvious here.

"...TO THE DEGREE that inflammatory statements represent US foreign policy, i am more offended than when they are made against us..."

There are pros and cons to such a stance, but I'm glad to learn more about the position, from an emotional perspective.

As to an example of the above, do you have an Inflammatory Statement in mind on the part of our Government, for our context?

"...i expect more of my nation than to say such things, and other nations should expect more of their governments, as well..."

Yet when we act in a somewhat restrained manner for months or years and continue to be subjected to the same levels of vitriol and attack regardless of that restraint, well, you eventually run up against Restraint Exhaustion, it would seem; coming to the sad and anger-engendering realization that it was all one-sided and largely for nothing; that no good came of it, despite the best of intentions, as that Brit video on Page 1 so clearly outlined.

"...however, having said that, the same is true to the degree which statements do NOT reflect the views of the government- and i should try to keep that in mind..."

Our own particular government usually and eventually embraces whatever sentiments that a majority of its populace embrace, although that's not always the case, and although there are oftentimes considerable time-delays between the advent of a sentiment and its realization through the organs of government.

"...rank idiots of both sides should be ignored..."

Actually, we see this a bit differently; with me holding that rank idiots of both sides should also have their day in the court of public discussion and opinion, so that The People can arrive at their own good common-sense conclusions after having heard all the evidence and argument.

In the case of those who sit opposite the present Islamic Assault Upon The West At-Large... we... us... Westerners... Europeans... Americans... and our kindred in various other pockets scattered across the globe, such as Oceania...

We (us Westerners) tend to polarize or distill down into several main and recognizable Response Types, in relation to our present difficulties with Islam...

----------

There are those who refuse to recognize the existence of a considerable threat vector...

There are the pacifiers and appeasers who would not harm a fly and who will not stand up for themselves under any circumstances...

There are those who perceive a threat but are uncertain as to the nature of the extent or degree of the threat and who oftentimes suffer from Analysis Paralysis until the game is nearly played-out...

There are those who just don't care or who are too busy trying to live their lives to be bothered with contemplating the Barbarians at the Gates...

There are those who perceive a threat but lack the backbone to stand up for themselves or their country or culture or society...

There are those who will act, and forcibly if need be, but wish to be seen as Good Guys and who will wait until attacked before bringing force to bear, which oftentimes poses a grave danger when we are attacked unexpectedly...

There are those who will act proactively and premptorily to strike out at a potential threat-vector before it can harm us...

There are those who are so full of hatred and those for whom any convenient and nearby target will do, that they will flatten a city or a country or a people with carpet-bombing or nuclear weapons merely because they exist and offend the sensibilities...

And all manner of grey between these various shades of black and white...

----------

Both ends of that spectrum are more dangerous than the middle elements, in my opinion...

"...it is only when bad ideas have the force of the US military behind them that i feel as if i have a stake in the argument..."

And many of us - even here - have very different ideas of what constitutes a 'bad idea' in the context of Islamic Extremism...

"...to a degree, i expect more of my countrymen than to behave like animals..."

And well you should, with respect to us initiating an animal-like aggression or an unthinking response to one...

I submit, however, that I expect more of my countrymen, than to lie down and take a bullet in the back of the head - metaporically speaking - when challenged by a bully system that is on the mend and looking to rebuild and flex its muscles after a long hiatus under the heel of their former colonial masters.