Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Sept 4, 2012 10:48:43 GMT -5
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 4, 2012 11:07:00 GMT -5
This is interesting because I just recently read a similar article. A woman living in France noticed that her 3 year old was ALWAYS the worst behaving kid in any group of kids. When going to dinner with friends, her kid got squirmy before they had even ordered their food. The other kids of the same age sat quietly through dinner. When she went to visit a friend, the woman's 3 year old was in the kitchen making cupcakes - unsupervised. When the author talked to the French parents, they said they would deliberately ignore their kids when they started screaming for attention because they didn't want their kids to think they were the center of the universe. One mother had a rule she wouldn't pick up her baby for at least five minutes when she started crying. Kids were given advanced tasks (like cupcake making) to do without supervision.
The author happened to also be working with an American sociologist who was studying how Americans raise their kids. They videotaped kids in their homes and saw this kind of stuff: an 8 year old girl sits down to eats, demands loudly "what am I supposed to eat with" and her dad gets up to get silverware for her (even though the girl knew where the silverware was kept). When a 6 year old boy was told to put his shoes on, he stuck his feet into the tied shoes and claimed they didn't fit. When instructed to, he untied the laces and thrust his feet into the shoes. When instructed to tie his shoes, he whined "I want you to do it." When Dad finally exploded, son reluctantly tied his own shoes.
Her summary -- we're raising kids who expect other people to do things for them, who don't learn to be independent, who expect to be the center of attention all the time. Kind of scary.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Sept 4, 2012 11:15:06 GMT -5
My parents neighbors are raising their sons to be very independent. We joke that its like lord of the flies over there. But assuming they live, I have no doubt that they will be the ceo's of the next generation.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 4, 2012 11:23:24 GMT -5
I'm 52, I remember babysitting when I was 12, washing dishes when I was 9, cooking dinner when I was 9 - 10, walking to school by myself starting in kindergarten (along a busy road) things that would probably get my parents arrested these days.
If course this was back when they made toys out of sheet metal, with sharp edges, and little parts that came off easily and could be swallowed easily, and those Mr Potato Head dolls with the sharp spikes on the eyes and noses so you could poke them into the potato - I remember stepping on one of them in bare feet. DH threw one of those lawn darts with the sharp end and impaled his sister's leg with it. We used to also leap from the back seat into the far back of the station wagon, too (seat belts? We don't need no stinkin' seat belts).
Maybe my generation did a better job of thinning the stupider kids out of the herd early on LOL.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Sept 4, 2012 11:27:39 GMT -5
And there is the real problem. We would let our kids play out front and people would come by and scold us. We let our kids ride their bikes up the street to their friend's house, and people would ring our doorbell to let us know our kids were out without us. The school won't let the kids get off the bus and walk home - a parent has to be there to claim them.
Damn lawyers - they have ruined the country.
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Virgil Showlion
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[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 4, 2012 11:31:36 GMT -5
Only because we let 'em.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 4, 2012 11:34:05 GMT -5
And there is the real problem. We would let our kids play out front and people would come by and scold us. We let our kids ride their bikes up the street to their friend's house, and people would ring our doorbell to let us know our kids were out without us. The school won't let the kids get off the bus and walk home - a parent has to be there to claim them. Damn lawyers - they have ruined the country. A while back I started a thread as to whether I should let my 4 and 6 year old walk the half block to the babysitter's after school, but the half block would require crossing a street. People were ready to take my kids from me.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Sept 4, 2012 11:50:51 GMT -5
Yes - this board is a contradiction. We are suppose to teach our kids a sense of independence, without trusting them to do anything by themselves.
I said something once about allowing sleep overs and was told, repeatedly, that my children were to be pitied - because I didn't care if they got molested or not.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 4, 2012 11:53:18 GMT -5
And there is the real problem. We would let our kids play out front and people would come by and scold us. We let our kids ride their bikes up the street to their friend's house, and people would ring our doorbell to let us know our kids were out without us. The school won't let the kids get off the bus and walk home - a parent has to be there to claim them. Damn lawyers - they have ruined the country. A while back I started a thread as to whether I should let my 4 and 6 year old walk the half block to the babysitter's after school, but the half block would require crossing a street. People were ready to take my kids from me. I wouldn't touch 85% of the parenting advice given on NMSNM with a 40-foot pole. I gave up even skimming the threads after the debate last year on whether parents "could" control their six-year-old's diet. There's advice worth listening to, but mostly you get what you pay for.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Sept 4, 2012 12:21:43 GMT -5
LOL. DH and I plan to start toilet training with DD in a couple months. My sister, who's 3.5yr old still poops in her pants, just keeps telling me it won't work. Why do most other countries figure out how to train their kids by 2, yet in the US kids are going to kindergarten in diapers & pullups?
I would agree though, this seems to be an odd, contradictory place for parenting advice.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Sept 4, 2012 12:57:59 GMT -5
And there is the real problem. We would let our kids play out front and people would come by and scold us. We let our kids ride their bikes up the street to their friend's house, and people would ring our doorbell to let us know our kids were out without us. The school won't let the kids get off the bus and walk home - a parent has to be there to claim them. I believe you but I still have to ask...seriously? When I was little we lived in an area that wasn't the nicest so I wasn't out by myself but in 1990 we moved into a house. My 8 year old roommate and I were riding bikes to the park, going to friends houses, walking to school 1 track over and so on. As an only child I was sheltered until I lived with kids my own age who had longer leashes and that was probably one of the best things that could have happened to me. I look around now at chubby spoiled kids and shudder because of how much their parents shelter them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 13:00:31 GMT -5
IMHO, this forum is a great place for getting parenting advice. where else can you get such a varied perspective? From your own group of real life friends and family? probably not. most people do not have the diversity that this group has.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 4, 2012 13:05:02 GMT -5
And there is the real problem. We would let our kids play out front and people would come by and scold us. We let our kids ride their bikes up the street to their friend's house, and people would ring our doorbell to let us know our kids were out without us. The school won't let the kids get off the bus and walk home - a parent has to be there to claim them. I believe you but I still have to ask...seriously? When I was little we lived in an area that wasn't the nicest so I wasn't out by myself but in 1990 we moved into a house. My 8 year old roommate and I were riding bikes to the park, going to friends houses, walking to school 1 track over and so on. As an only child I was sheltered until I lived with kids my own age who had longer leashes and that was probably one of the best things that could have happened to me. I look around now at chubby spoiled kids and shudder because of how much their parents shelter them. Yes, seriously.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Sept 4, 2012 13:05:22 GMT -5
As much as I hate to defend lawyers, they aren't responsible here. It's the god damn judges. A lawyers job is to argue in court on behalf of their client. Even when that client is a bloody idiot who wants something incredibly stupid. A good lawyer would still make the best argument they could on behalf of their stupid client. If judges and juries would stop buying the stupid arguments we wouldn't have a problem.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 13:08:14 GMT -5
I'm 52, I remember babysitting when I was 12, washing dishes when I was 9, cooking dinner when I was 9 - 10, walking to school by myself starting in kindergarten (along a busy road) things that would probably get my parents arrested these days. If course this was back when they made toys out of sheet metal, with sharp edges, and little parts that came off easily and could be swallowed easily, and those Mr Potato Head dolls with the sharp spikes on the eyes and noses so you could poke them into the potato - I remember stepping on one of them in bare feet. DH threw one of those lawn darts with the sharp end and impaled his sister's leg with it. We used to also leap from the back seat into the far back of the station wagon, too (seat belts? We don't need no stinkin' seat belts). Maybe my generation did a better job of thinning the stupider kids out of the herd early on LOL. But that begs the question, why do we want to raise another generation like the baby boomer? [shudder]
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Sept 4, 2012 13:08:23 GMT -5
Maybe it is the juries - not the judges.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 13:09:43 GMT -5
As much as I hate to defend lawyers, they aren't responsible here. It's the god damn judges. A lawyers job is to argue in court on behalf of their client. Even when that client is a bloody idiot who wants something incredibly stupid. A good lawyer would still make the best argument they could on behalf of their stupid client. If judges and juries would stop buying the stupid arguments we wouldn't have a problem. it is not the judges or the lawyers. They are just playing in the game that the legislatures set up. If we had legislatures that could rub two brain cells together and write some decent laws we wouldn't have such a cluster F.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Sept 4, 2012 13:11:33 GMT -5
As long as it isn't my fault - that is all I care about.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Sept 4, 2012 13:12:11 GMT -5
I buried my dad's drill on his ladder under sand from the sandbox that I took over scoop by scoop while he was up on the ladder doing something when I was about 2.
It's not a saw but do I get points for that?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 13:12:22 GMT -5
As long as it isn't my fault - that is all I care about. Accountants don't help, so you are not off the hook.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Sept 4, 2012 13:12:51 GMT -5
Not all trials are jury trials. A lot of the time it's just the lawyers arguing in front of the judge.
Look at Supreme Court rulings. All on the judges.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Sept 4, 2012 14:24:19 GMT -5
Really, I think there can be a happy medium. I do not think it's a good idea to give a 3 or 4 year old a saw. I also don't think you should do everything for your child.
To me there are times to be more protective and there are times to stand back. It's about finding the right balance.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Sept 4, 2012 14:31:16 GMT -5
Hand saws aren't actually that dangerous. It's not like the kid is going to saw into their own arm or something. If anything they'll get a nasty scratch. Power tools would be a little different. You put your hand in front of a circular saw and you might lose fingers. A regular old hand saw though? Eh... they'll be fine.
I have a cousin who lost a couple fingers to an axe though, so that would be out of the question for me. Her and her older brother were chopping wood. She went to adjust the piece of wood on the stump, at the same time he swung to cut it. I don't remember their exact ages, but she was under 10 and he was probably around there.
ETA - I hadn't really thought about it until now, but if it happened today there would probably be a CPS investigation started immediately. At the time it was a chalked up as a tragic accident, and I'm sure the parents were more careful about supervising potentially dangerous activities.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Sept 4, 2012 14:34:31 GMT -5
And yet our kiddos had used both handsaws and axes way before 10, just with supervision. No sense in being foolish.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Sept 4, 2012 14:42:01 GMT -5
And that's the crux of it. Kids, and especially toddlers, don't have the attention span for stuff like that. They are easily distracted.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Sept 4, 2012 14:43:03 GMT -5
Well, I wasn't raised in US, so I bring things into my parenting approach that might not be very PC around here. HOWEVER!! I feel like I am being watched all the freaking time!!!! In the last 4 yrs I got so much parenting advice and suggestions from strangers that I write a book longer than War and Piece
Do we not remember the thread when OP asked if she should have gotten involved when she saw a mother putting 4 kids in a car with only 3 car seats.....and so many people said that they would have gotten involved.
So, we all want to raise independent children who will conquer the world, but we don't have the time to do it, bc we are too busy watching how everyone else is raises their children.
Lena
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Sept 4, 2012 14:48:57 GMT -5
That's different. I trust my own supervision. I don't trust some random teacher to be as vigilant as I would. Like I said, hand saws, alright. I wouldn't be comfortable with a stranger supervising them while they learn to throw knives, for example, even though I did that with them when they were pretty young.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Sept 4, 2012 14:50:10 GMT -5
I remember that thread well because I was one of the people who said I would have definitely gotten involved somehow. There is a huge difference between teaching kids to be independent and allowing them to be placed in obviously dangerous situations. Do I think you should go around studying every other parent? No. But I also think if you happen to see a child being placed in a dangerous situation, you have an obligation to do something. I realize I'm in the minority on this one, but that's how I feel.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Sept 4, 2012 14:54:43 GMT -5
And that's exactly the gist of it. While you consider A dangerous, B might not. So, Swiss teacher gives a saw to a 3 yr old there - no one blinks an eye. Here? She would be dragged in handcuffs and her pic would be front page news.
Danger is a very relative term.....
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Sept 4, 2012 14:57:28 GMT -5
That's different. I trust my own supervision. I don't trust some random teacher to be as vigilant as I would. Like I said, hand saws, alright. I wouldn't be comfortable with a stranger supervising them while they learn to throw knives, for example, even though I did that with them when they were pretty young. But you trust a teacher to educate them? I see no reason to not trust a teacher with these things if they're in smaller groups. They get to do stuff like this in scouts or what have you.
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