Victory for Equality: Shame on You, Avis

[Virgil Showlion]

Aug 13, 2012 22:45:51 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I will say Virgil this woman's case against Avis is an excellent example why gay marriage should be legal. Why should only straight folks get the benefits through marriage. Equality for all right?

My position is that ceremonies performed by a church should be called "marriage", and secular "marriage" in all cases should be called "civil union" or "binding love certificate" or whatever people prefer except "marriage", which is a religious institution.

If a church performs "gay marriages", although I am totally opposed to the concept, I don't see the state as having the right to tell them they can't do so.

The Christian right is struggling to prevent the US's moral collapse through democratic law. I believe that it's a noble endeavour, and that the economic collapse is fundamentally linked to the moral collapse, but the right won't succeed. The hearts and minds of Americans (Canadians, British, etc.) are drifting ever further away from God, and no amount of legislation will stop that. "Gay marriage" will happen eventually in the US, unless America collapses under her financial burdens first.

The "gay marriage" issue, as many here have pointed out, is just one among literally dozens of symptoms of a dying society. Divorce, greed, laziness, senses of entitlement, promiscuity, overspending, disrespect for parents, lying politicians, violence, abortion, terrorism, military insanity, racism, class warfare, apathy, disinformation, ... the whole system is rotten to the core. The "gay marriage" controversy so often makes headlines because it's one of the few things the religious right has any control over.

All of this has to happen. Line by line, word by word.

...wow, don... just wow...

Don's just being sarcastic.

[Virgil Showlion]

If Avis is okay with whatever membership rules the group has, who am I to judge? This is akin to Chick-fil-A and their political statement donations, IMHO. If one doesn't like how a company does business, there are plenty other options available in most cases. personally, I choose to spend my money at the businesses of competitors to a few widely known corporations, for a variety of reasons. That's my prerogative as it's the prerogative of any consumer to do business with companies that conduct themselves in a manner to the consumers liking.

If that's a "yes" to my original question, then I guess we agree.

[jkapp]

Aug 13, 2012 23:03:50 GMT -5 Don Perignon said:

Tthe very idea... that perquisites attenuate to "being Christian" have been withdrawn at a two-bit podunk swimming hole (literally) in Upper Frybread Arkansas...

See: www.notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=politics&thread=25449&page=1#1199515


it has whipped the martyrs into a frenzy.
Got 'em up on their gay-hatin' soapboxes and everything.
Why, they even created a second special thread regarding the topic.

Oh, well... any excuse to castigate one's "inferiors", y'know...

Ain't nuthin' as fun as scourgin' sinners. ;D

Wow, Don is a self-righteous elitist...what a shocker

[jkapp]

Aug 13, 2012 23:31:54 GMT -5 Don Perignon said:

How would the public feel to discover that some major auto-rental agency supplies Muslims with cars at half of the price they charge "infidels"... ?
Would there be protestations?

Possibly...but a guarantee of protestations would be if said rental agency offered cars at half price to Christians.

[swamp]

Do you or do you not believe that Avis should have a right to offer discounts to any organization whose membership is exclusively gay?

I believe they do. whether or not it is a wise business move is another discussion.

How would the public feel to discover that some major auto-rental agency supplies Muslims with cars at half of the price they charge "infidels"... ?
Would there be protestations?

See answer above.

[swamp]

The Christian right is struggling to prevent the US's moral collapse through democratic law. I believe that it's a noble endeavour, and that the economic collapse is fundamentally linked to the moral collapse, but the right won't succeed. The hearts and minds of Americans (Canadians, British, etc.) are drifting ever further away from God, and no amount of legislation will stop that. "Gay marriage" will happen eventually in the US, unless America collapses under her financial burdens first.

You have no idea how self righteous and arrogant that sounds.

[Driftr]

Aug 14, 2012 8:36:13 GMT -5 swamp said:

The Christian right is struggling to prevent the US's moral collapse through democratic law. I believe that it's a noble endeavour, and that the economic collapse is fundamentally linked to the moral collapse, but the right won't succeed. The hearts and minds of Americans (Canadians, British, etc.) are drifting ever further away from God, and no amount of legislation will stop that. "Gay marriage" will happen eventually in the US, unless America collapses under her financial burdens first.

You have no idea how self righteous and arrogant that sounds.

It doesn't make it any less true.

[Virgil Showlion]

Aug 14, 2012 10:05:47 GMT -5 Driftr said:

Aug 14, 2012 8:36:13 GMT -5 swamp said:

You have no idea how self righteous and arrogant that sounds.

It doesn't make it any less true.

You won't have to take my word for it, Ms. Swamp. Watch it unfold before your very eyes over the coming decade. Maybe even the next few years.

[mmhmm]

Did anybody actually read the linked article, or did I miss part of it? Neither of the organizations given the discounts has an exclusively gay membership.

[chiver78]

I did, mmhmm.

[mmhmm]

Yeah, chiver. So did I. I can't figure out why there's still an ongoing discussion of discounts given to gays only.

[Green Eyed Lady]

"Anybody can join our organization. Our surveys show more than a quarter of our members are straight," said Tom Luhnow, who heads the Greater San Diego Business Association, a local gay business group.

I read it. I'm not sure I understand why heterosexuals would join a "local gay business group", but obviously they do.

I thought it was illegal to ask someone's sexual orientation. Yet their survey shows more than a quarter of their members are straight. Must be a way to ask without asking.

[mmhmm]

I guess so, GEL. I have no clue how they'd know, but it might be because they're a business group and know other business people in town on a personal basis. That's the only thing I can think of. Point is, though, the business group and the travel group are open to everyone who wishes to join.

[Tennesseer]

Aug 14, 2012 12:22:55 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

"Anybody can join our organization. Our surveys show more than a quarter of our members are straight," said Tom Luhnow, who heads the Greater San Diego Business Association, a local gay business group.

I read it. I'm not sure I understand why heterosexuals would join a "local gay business group", but obviously they do.

I thought it was illegal to ask someone's sexual orientation. Yet their survey shows more than a quarter of their members are straight. Must be a way to ask without asking.

GEL-gay folks have money-lots of disposable income. That's why a straight business would join a local gay business group. It's The Money!

There are businesses out there that won't do business with gay people.

[Driftr]

Aug 14, 2012 12:39:19 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Aug 14, 2012 12:22:55 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

I read it. I'm not sure I understand why heterosexuals would join a "local gay business group", but obviously they do.

I thought it was illegal to ask someone's sexual orientation. Yet their survey shows more than a quarter of their members are straight. Must be a way to ask without asking.

GEL-gay folks have money-lots of disposable income. That's why a straight business would join a local gay business group. It's The Money!

There are businesses out there that won't do business with gay people.

All the more reason to let them get married and adopt.

[Don Perignon]

Aug 14, 2012 12:18:42 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Yeah, chiver. So did I. I can't figure out why there's still an ongoing discussion of discounts given to gays only.

" ... this I know... 'cause the Bible tells them so!"

[Green Eyed Lady]

Have you read the Bible, Don?

[Don Perignon]

Have you read the Bible, Don?

Which one? There are so many to choose from, that differ on numerous points.
I've read several versions, and been intrigued by the analyses provided by various "concordances".
Seeing as how I'm not an expert in ancient Greek or Latin or Hebrew or Aramaic, I know I'm at the mercy of translators and lexicographers, but even so...

One might expect them all to agree on certain basic points, like the "Decalogue" (aka "the Ten Commandments"), but, surprisingly, they do not.

Some have slices conspicuously missing, some have bits appended... and then there's the "Book of Mormon" ("revealed" by Joe Smith, the polygamous religious separatist from upstate New York).

Frankly, I think "Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" is a pretty elucidating book. Murder, enslavement, betrayal, blood-feud, Law, exodus, superstition, false worship, rebellion, redemption... it hits so many of the keynotes!

[Virgil Showlion]

Ms. GEL, Mr. Perignon, if you wouldn't mind taking your discussion to the Religion board. It really has nothing to do with the thread.

Ms. GEL: Please don't feed the trolls.

[Green Eyed Lady]

I am sorry, Virgil. I wasn't discussing religion but simply asking a question, which I will do no more of since it appears to be unacceptable.

Please provide a list of whom you wish me to talk to and I'll certainly comply, since I don't know who is considered a troll and who isn't. Certainly, it shouldn't be left up to me to decide.

[Don Perignon]

"If you make trolling illegal, then only the moderators will be able to troll."

Pretty neat trick... quite devious. Kinda like what the aryan supremacists pulled off with their "Godwin's Law" shtick.

[Virgil Showlion]

Please provide a list of whom you wish me to talk to and I'll certainly comply, since I don't know who is considered a troll and who isn't. Certainly, it shouldn't be left up to me to decide.

On P&M, there's just the one, Ms. GEL.

I don't fault you for not knowing.

In general, if a comment appears hostile and notably out of place (e.g. Reply #26, Reply #45), visit the poster's profile page and display the last 50 posts he/she has made.

Compare Mr. Perignon's posts to your own, and to other contributors in this thread (mmhmm, Tennesseer, Driftr, myself). The difference will be rather stark. Another useful diagnosis tool is to examine how frequently people reply to a particular poster's comments. If a comment is notably hostile and the community at large isn't replying to it, you would do well to scrutinize the author of the comment.

The best way to address such individuals is simply to ignore their contributions, either by bypassing their comments or by using the "Ignore" option, which many posters find helpful.

A good night to you.

[Tennesseer]

Virgil-this wasn't exactly your finest hour. from your opening post:

"Gays should by no means get discounts. On anything. Ever."

[Don Perignon]

"The Golden Rule

Them that's got the gold makes the rules."

And they still haven't forgiven the Liberals for robbing them of their field hands almost a 150 years ago.

[Virgil Showlion]

Aug 14, 2012 23:08:18 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Virgil-this wasn't exactly your finest hour. from your opening post:

"Gays should by no means get discounts. On anything. Ever."

It's sarcasm, Tenn.

The whole OP is positively dripping with it. If you legitimately couldn't tell, I hereby declare satire on the web well and truly dead.

The entire point of this thread was to get you to admit that you (and various others) value an organization's autonomous right to offer discounts to groups and organizations of their choice above "making things equal across the board". I did that.

I did it because I agree with you. The only difference being that my values don't suddenly reverse priority when the organization being offered a discount is a church group. Yours do, and despite a valiant attempt to bury the issue in "she could get a travel agency discount" minutia, everybody here knows it.

Let Avis give discounts to gay travel agencies.

Let water parks give discounts to church groups.

Still no feeding the trolls.

[mmhmm]

I don't disagree, Virgil. I would have one question, however. The "gay travel agency" is open to everyone, as is the business association in question. Would church groups be open to everyone, including gays and atheists? If not, there's a bit of a problem, as I see it.

[Spellbound454]

I think the difference here is that a travel agent is not a public amenity- leisure activity or amusement. As in the Water Park.

A privately run facility for invididuals.....ie.... Various clubs....could limit their admission to interested parties.
And as long as it is within reason....and not
ie...You can't join the Brownies because you are black
or... You can't belong to a weight loss club because you are Gay

I don't think many people would care.

[Virgil Showlion]

Aug 15, 2012 2:13:34 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I don't disagree, Virgil. I would have one question, however. The "gay travel agency" is open to everyone, as is the business association in question. Would church groups be open to everyone, including gays and atheists? If not, there's a bit of a problem, as I see it.

Firstly, saying that a gay travel association is "open to everyone" doesn't make it the statistical reality. If a heterosexual signing up to join is awkward, embarrassing, or in any way impeded—and I can't imagine it wouldn't be—the "soft" nature of the exclusion is irrelevant.

Even if homosexuals are significantly overrepresented in its membership, Avis is still showing preference to homosexuals (in this particular deal). And the US courts agree with me. Numerous drug laws have been struck down as discriminatory, for example, when "black drugs" (illegal drugs more likely to be used by black Americans) carry harsher penalties than "white drugs" (illegal drugs more likely to be used by white Americans). Discrimination by correlation, and presumably also promotion by correlation, are not acceptable workarounds.

Secondly, I know of no church that doesn't accept openly gay members (ETA: WBC excepted ). My church, which abhors homosexuality, wouldn't deny a homosexual man or woman the right to attend services.

There are rules, of course. Everyone comes in Sabbath dress (a suit and tie, etc.). There is fellowship before and after services, but during services it's the minister talking and everyone else listening quietly (or singing hymns). Discussions are about scripture or Christian topics. 95% of NMSNM topics wouldn't qualify.

If a homosexual man was attending services and insisted on exhibiting or talking about his orientation, he'd be asked to leave by the ministry, as would a vocal atheist, or a brazen crook, or anybody with open contempt for Biblical law and church doctrines.

But if an unrepentant "proud to be gay" individual wanted to attend services and then fellowship afterwards and discuss scripture, although I can't conceive of why he/she would want to, and although his/her attendance would be heavily scrutinized, he/she would be welcome to do so.

Unfortunately, we don't get discounts at any water parks insofar as I'm aware.

[Deleted]

The church is the water park of your soul.

[Virgil Showlion]

You're the water park of our souls, Archie.