On Deuteronomy 22

[Virgil Showlion]

So, are you saying that the lost would be burned up, like in no longer existing?

Yes, Ms. heart. But it's not me saying it.

You can look up the scriptures I quoted in your own Bible.

A detailed study can take time because three words in Greek translate to "hell" in English: hades, gehenna and tartarus. Each has a different meaning.

'Hades' has the same meaning as 'sheol' in the Old Testament, which is simply "a pit" or "a grave". A place of rest for the dead. "Gehenna" derives from the Hebrew expression "ge hinnom" which means the "valley of Hinnom." Hinnom was the place where Jerusalem burned its trash, as well as the bodies of executed criminals. Hence it became a symbol of a place of judgment associated with fire.

Consider Matthew 5:22:

"But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire".

Here, the words "hell fire" are translated from Gehenna. Again, a place of fiery destruction for the unrighteous.

Regarding the church I attend, you can find information about it here.

See, we are the 'soul.' God breathed life into every 'soul.' This means the life-force itself is the 'soul.' Not something that lives on after we die.

Indeed.

I'll add: "soul" translates from "nepesh" ("nephesh") in the Hebrew. Meaning "a living thing", "a creature", "a being with life".

You do not have a soul. You are a soul. Ms. Cranberry is absolutely right.

[Deleted]

Jul 29, 2012 17:30:55 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

Jul 29, 2012 10:16:12 GMT -5 @shooby said:

Not to split hairs, but nobody ceases to exist. I think some people assume death is annihilation. But, there is Heaven or Hell. There is eternal joy or eternal suffering. Ceasing to exist would be a blessing but we are eternal beings.

Sorry, but I don't see it the way you do. According to the bible, the soul can/does die. So, if the soul dies, what's left to torment forever and ever? The body itself? That would make no sense. The body would burn up! The bible clearly states that 'the soul that sins will die.' Then the bible says that the 'dead know nothing.' So, what would be the point of burning something that 'knows nothing?'

Therefore, yes, some will 'cease to exist.' We are not eternal beings as we have been taught by various religions. It's just not biblical.

See, we are the 'soul.' God breathed life into every 'soul.' This means the life-force itself is the 'soul.' Not something that lives on after we die.

Those are good points. And, the topic is certainly worthy of study. I guess i never really thought about it in depth but my understanding was eternal damnation or Heaven. But, i will have to crack open my theology books and really take a good look. The nice thing though is that believers will get a new body for eternity! No more cellulite! ;D

[cranberry49]

Jul 29, 2012 19:38:15 GMT -5 @shooby said:

Jul 29, 2012 17:30:55 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

Sorry, but I don't see it the way you do. According to the bible, the soul can/does die. So, if the soul dies, what's left to torment forever and ever? The body itself? That would make no sense. The body would burn up! The bible clearly states that 'the soul that sins will die.' Then the bible says that the 'dead know nothing.' So, what would be the point of burning something that 'knows nothing?'

Therefore, yes, some will 'cease to exist.' We are not eternal beings as we have been taught by various religions. It's just not biblical.

See, we are the 'soul.' God breathed life into every 'soul.' This means the life-force itself is the 'soul.' Not something that lives on after we die.

Those are good points. And, the topic is certainly worthy of study. I guess i never really thought about it in depth but my understanding was eternal damnation or Heaven. But, i will have to crack open my theology books and really take a good look. The nice thing though is that believers will get a new body for eternity! No more cellulite! ;D

[/b]


LOL! I love it, and agree! ;D

[Deleted]

You can look up the scriptures I quoted in your own Bible.

My own Bible.. Okay.

Virgil. Your backdrop is......? I am soooo curious..

Thanks for the references..

[Deleted]

Regarding the church I attend, you can find information about it here.

Here where? Don't know where here is.. Sorry. I need directions..

[Deleted]

Click the word "here" in Virgil's post, Heart.

[ktunes]

With respect I suggest there are no 'Holy Days'. There are days set apart to remember the actions of Christ. Only the Church has decided that they are 'Holy Days'.

IMO we do not need 'Holy Days' like the Hebrews. In the OT the presence of God was to be found in the Tabernacle and then the Temple.
It was important then for God to set aside 'Holy Days' for the people to come to where he dwelt for the specific purposes of worship and to sacrifice for their sins - Day of Atonement, and to offer thank offerings - First fruits etc.

As Christ is with us we do not need to come into his presence to worship. That we do so is to share with each other in worship and celebrate together. The actual day we do so is not important. As long as we set aside one day a week for that purpose, and agree the day we follow God's command to 'gather together in His name'. Most denominations use Sunday, others Saturday.

Easter is not a 'Holy Feast'. It is simply a feast of remembrance and celebration. 'Do this in remembrance of me'. Though it is important. Its symbolism is related to that of the Jewish Passover.

Why, oh why, has the Established churches made a simple 'religion' a complicated set of rules and unnecessary rituals.

the holy days, as outlined in the OT, have very important meaning...more than just ritualistic ceremony...as virgil stated above, they map out God's plan of salvation for mankind...i still believe these days are to be observed and not the traditional holidays most denominations keep presently...

moreover, these days were instituted by God so no man, emperor, pope, etc. has the authority to change them...

i know most feel the OT is no longer valid, or that it would only apply to hebrews/jews/israelites, but that is a whole other can of worms...

[Deleted]

Thanks for the information, Inner. The word here, wasn't highlighted earlier.. At least not from my perch until just now..

Virgil.. I will ace comb the site.. Thanks. I have been reading parts just this morning..

Ktunes.. I agree, the Old Testament is vital to the New Testament church (believer's) indeed..

I'd sure like if you'd open up the can of worms though.. Everyone else has..

[trevorw2539]

Jul 29, 2012 17:51:53 GMT -5 @heart2heart said:

I have a question.. And especially directed towards Virgil.. Can I ask you of what your particular Christian cultural backdrop is.. You know, like, Baptist, Lutheran. Pentecostal, etc..

I have, on the shelf of my mind, (a teaching on) what you've just shared concerning the fires of hell.. I say on the shelf because I have not trashed the teachings. I've been taught, but never did the study myself on the eternal/tormenting/ forever fires of hell that they were indeed a forever existing burning of those who did not accept Jesus Christ while they lived. Very interesting to hear this same teaching again.. So, are you saying that the lost would be burned up, like in no longer existing?

I sure am waiting for the follow-ups..

Why, oh why, has the Established churches made a simple 'religion' a complicated set of rules and unnecessary rituals.

Trevor..

Religion is sets of rules and rits is why.. Faith ain't.

I agree. That's why I put 'Religion' in apostrophies.

[trevorw2539]

Jul 30, 2012 2:47:47 GMT -5 ktunes said:

With respect I suggest there are no 'Holy Days'. There are days set apart to remember the actions of Christ. Only the Church has decided that they are 'Holy Days'.

IMO we do not need 'Holy Days' like the Hebrews. In the OT the presence of God was to be found in the Tabernacle and then the Temple.
It was important then for God to set aside 'Holy Days' for the people to come to where he dwelt for the specific purposes of worship and to sacrifice for their sins - Day of Atonement, and to offer thank offerings - First fruits etc.

As Christ is with us we do not need to come into his presence to worship. That we do so is to share with each other in worship and celebrate together. The actual day we do so is not important. As long as we set aside one day a week for that purpose, and agree the day we follow God's command to 'gather together in His name'. Most denominations use Sunday, others Saturday.

Easter is not a 'Holy Feast'. It is simply a feast of remembrance and celebration. 'Do this in remembrance of me'. Though it is important. Its symbolism is related to that of the Jewish Passover.

Why, oh why, has the Established churches made a simple 'religion' a complicated set of rules and unnecessary rituals.

the holy days, as outlined in the OT, have very important meaning...more than just ritualistic ceremony...as virgil stated above, they map out God's plan of salvation for mankind...i still believe these days are to be observed and not the traditional holidays most denominations keep presently...

moreover, these days were instituted by God so no man, emperor, pope, etc. has the authority to change them...

i know most feel the OT is no longer valid, or that it would only apply to hebrews/jews/israelites, but that is a whole other can of worms...

I'm not sure of your point. I do not suggest that the Holy Days of the OT are not important. As Virgil says they are a pointer. And yes, they were instituted by God. But they are past, to the Christian who has a new life beyond animal sacrifices and ritual ceremonies.
This was the problem the writer/s to the Hebrews was addressing. It seemed that some of the early Christians were looking back and longing for the old rituals. The writer/s say this 'Look, why are you longing for the things that are dead to you. You have a new life in Christ'.
Essentially the book of Hebrews is an explanation to them of how Christ has fulfilled the OT rituals.
It's probably one of the hardest books to understand unless you first really study the Day of Atonement and the High Priests part in it.

Christians celebrate Easter in remembrance of Christ. It's a special remembrance - not special day.

[jackthelad]

Jul 29, 2012 10:16:12 GMT -5 @shooby said:

Jul 29, 2012 5:39:06 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

Damnation=death. Simply put, if you choose to follow and believe in God, then you live for eternity. If not. You die. You cease to exist. To be forever cut off from God and his son Jesus.

Not to split hairs, but nobody ceases to exist. I think some people assume death is annihilation. But, there is Heaven or Hell. There is eternal joy or eternal suffering. Ceasing to exist woul :)d be a blessing but we are eternal beings.

You are joking aren't you. Do you actually know anyone who has been to Heaven, or Hell for that matter, and come back to let people know what it's like. Even the so called Resurrection of Jesus is a myth, a fairy tale for gullable people, heaven is only something they thought up to keep people happy, and hell is to make people toe the line or else.

[Deleted]

Um, no i am not 'joking" at all. There are lots of people like me who have religious convictions regarding God and eternity.

[jackthelad]

Jul 30, 2012 8:19:03 GMT -5 @shooby said:

Um, no i am not 'joking" at all. There are lots of people like me who have religious convictions regarding God and eternity.

OK Shooby, dream on, i suppose it can't hurt in the long run. The only belief and faith that i have is that one day i will die, finito, end off, only ashes to ashes and dust to dust. In my case it will be dust to dust, i will be buried, that way i will miss the fires of Hell.

[trevorw2539]

Jul 30, 2012 8:28:48 GMT -5 jackthelad said:

Jul 30, 2012 8:19:03 GMT -5 @shooby said:

Um, no i am not 'joking" at all. There are lots of people like me who have religious convictions regarding God and eternity.

OK Shooby, dream on, i suppose it can't hurt in the long run. The only belief and faith that i have is that one day i will die, finito, end off, only ashes to ashes and dust to dust. In my case it will be dust to dust, i will be buried, that way i will miss the fires of Hell.

Or be 6' nearer

[Jaguar]

Jul 30, 2012 6:06:14 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

What if....damnation was having to repeatedly come back to body form in order to relearn lessons and heaven was a place we went after graduation?

This is how I've learned about it as well Lone. What I know is that there are different levels of the awareness of love. How much and to what degree do you love and feel love. That is what I've been taught is all that matters.

[femmefatale]

Jul 30, 2012 8:19:03 GMT -5 @shooby said:

Um, no i am not 'joking" at all. There are lots of people like me who have religious convictions regarding God and eternity.

[Deleted]

Jul 30, 2012 8:15:51 GMT -5 jackthelad said:

Jul 29, 2012 10:16:12 GMT -5 @shooby said:

Not to split hairs, but nobody ceases to exist. I think some people assume death is annihilation. But, there is Heaven or Hell. There is eternal joy or eternal suffering. Ceasing to exist woul :)d be a blessing but we are eternal beings.

You are joking aren't you. Do you actually know anyone who has been to Heaven, or Hell for that matter, and come back to let people know what it's like. Even the so called Resurrection of Jesus is a myth, a fairy tale for gullable people, heaven is only something they thought up to keep people happy, and hell is to make people toe the line or else.

There is this fallacy that a proposition is true simply because it has not been proven false.
I'm sure you've all heard theists try to counter the argument that they have no proof in God's existence with "Well, you can't prove he doesn't exist!" This is silly of course because it is nearly impossible to prove a negative.
I can't prove that fairies, elves, Leprechauns, vampires, and werewolves don't exist either, but I think we'd all agree that you'd have to be an idiot to believe in any of them because of the improbability of such beliefs.

[femmefatale]

Big difference in a Spiritual God, there Apps, that people actually worship and trust and believe in...versus the werewolves, leprechauns and etc. What may seem to be idiotic to one, may not be to the other.

[Deleted]

Jul 30, 2012 12:06:35 GMT -5 @femmefatale said:

Big difference in a Spiritual God, there Apps, that people actually worship and trust and believe in...versus the werewolves, leprechauns and etc. What may seem to be idiotic to one, may not be to the other.

No worries, I'm just pointing out that you can't prove a negative. Its a waste of time.

[femmefatale]

God isn't negative. He's very much a positive and very real to a lot of people.

[Deleted]

Thought this might be of interest:

departments.bloomu.edu/philosophy/pages/content/hales/articlepdf/proveanegative.pdf

[Deleted]

Jul 30, 2012 12:13:00 GMT -5 @femmefatale said:

God isn't negative. He's very much a positive and very real to a lot of people.

I know you believe that so it is true for you.

Saying you can't prove god exists or saying you can't prove god doesn't exist, the latter being proving a negative is impossible. Thats all.

[Deleted]

Jul 30, 2012 12:17:02 GMT -5 @devianity said:

Thought this might be of interest:

departments.bloomu.edu/philosophy/pages/content/hales/articlepdf/proveanegative.pdf

Good link.

[Jaguar]

Jul 30, 2012 12:17:55 GMT -5 @joey said:

Jul 30, 2012 12:17:02 GMT -5 @devianity said:

Thought this might be of interest:

departments.bloomu.edu/philosophy/pages/content/hales/articlepdf/proveanegative.pdf

Good link.

>> It was an interesting read.

[femmefatale]

I'll third that notion, Astro. Great link!

[Virgil Showlion]

Jul 30, 2012 6:28:39 GMT -5 trevorw2539 said:

Jul 30, 2012 2:47:47 GMT -5 ktunes said:

the holy days, as outlined in the OT, have very important meaning...more than just ritualistic ceremony...as virgil stated above, they map out God's plan of salvation for mankind...i still believe these days are to be observed and not the traditional holidays most denominations keep presently...

moreover, these days were instituted by God so no man, emperor, pope, etc. has the authority to change them...

i know most feel the OT is no longer valid, or that it would only apply to hebrews/jews/israelites, but that is a whole other can of worms...

I'm not sure of your point. I do not suggest that the Holy Days of the OT are not important. As Virgil says they are a pointer. And yes, they were instituted by God. But they are past, to the Christian who has a new life beyond animal sacrifices and ritual ceremonies.
This was the problem the writer/s to the Hebrews was addressing. It seemed that some of the early Christians were looking back and longing for the old rituals. The writer/s say this 'Look, why are you longing for the things that are dead to you. You have a new life in Christ'.
Essentially the book of Hebrews is an explanation to them of how Christ has fulfilled the OT rituals.
It's probably one of the hardest books to understand unless you first really study the Day of Atonement and the High Priests part in it.

Christians celebrate Easter in remembrance of Christ. It's a special remembrance - not special day.

Trevor, my thoughts on the matter are (in all but one small regard) in line with LCG doctrine on the subject (link).

The scriptures that indicate why we should continue to observe the Holy Days are scattered throughout.

Take from it what you will.

As an aside, regarding our discussion earlier: the book quoted by Christ (in Joshua 10 and 2 Samuel) that does not appear in OT canon proper is the Book of Jasher. And I can see the wisdom in leaving it as a separate book, outside the compendium. It's huge!

[Virgil Showlion]

Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and it's better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.~ Marilyn Monroe

Didn't she die at age 36? From a barbiturate overdose that most people assumed was a suicide attempt?

Just sayin'.

[femmefatale]

Jul 30, 2012 13:15:42 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and it's better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.~ Marilyn Monroe

Didn't she die at age 36? From a barbiturate overdose that most people assumed was a suicide attempt?

Just sayin'.

What does my signature have to do with anything? Just sayin?

[Deleted]

Jul 30, 2012 13:15:42 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and it's better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.~ Marilyn Monroe

Didn't she die at age 36? From a barbiturate overdose that most people assumed was a suicide attempt?

Just sayin'.

[femmefatale]

IKR??