On Deuteronomy 22

[sparkle]

Hey Virgie! ;D i happen to love Cadburys get them sent to me from England Have you ever tasted their Crunchie bars??? MMMMM!! so good!!!
Beats out Hersheys chocolate anytime of the day

[Virgil Showlion]

The feasts and ceremonies of the OT are, in the main, a matter of Hebrew faith. They are a foreshadowing of things to come in Christ. Provided we do not return to them - animal sacrifices etc - then I see no reason not to recognise them. I personally see no reason to celebrate those things which have been overshadowed. But that is only my opinion.

The Book of Hebrews was written to a people who were trying to pour new wine into an old wineskin. They believed the number of times they washed their hands, their hours spent in front of the wailing wall, the number of animals they sacrificed could buy them salvation. In the same way, many Christians today believe that doing laps around rosary beads or self-flagellation or donating to charity will cover the multitude of their sins.

These acts will not save them, of course. We are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ, by accepting his sacrifice that we might be justified with God. As I point out with Ms. heart, this by no means gives us a license to continue in sin.

As I'm sure you know, the audience of the Letter of the Hebrews was prone to choking out the Spirit with mind-numbing legalism. They had laws for everything, much like orthodox Judaism today. The purpose wasn't to emulate Christ and live a righteous lifestyle, but to constrain every detail with ritual and rite, lording the law over "the little people", believing that you could attain salvation simply by being "good enough" in God's eyes. Wear your robe just this height. Don't walk on the north side of a street on a Tuesday. Give two coins to a beggar if his beard was dirty, and three if it was clean. If you don't, you're damned. It was a Pharisaical attitude, a denial of their own sinfulness, and a denial of what Christ had done for them.

Concerning the Holy Days, we need to look at a number of things. Have the things they symbolize (or commemorate) yet come to pass? Did Christ observe these days? Did the apostles observe them? Did the gentile churches observe them? Will they be observed when Christ returns to the Earth?

As you read at the link I provided, the days have very specific prophetic and commemorative meaning. Many of the prophecies (those symbolized by the fall feasts) have yet to come to pass. The spring Holy Days symbolize events that occur analogously as for Israel of ancient time, as for the apostles of Christ's time, as for the firstfruits of this present day and for God's church throughout history. They are very much still relevant. They point to the present and to the future. Passover is the only one that points definitively to two events that occurred in the past, and Christ himself instructs us to conduct a solemn remembrance of him. That was the only feast for which the symbols changed.

As for the remainder of the questions, you will also have read in the link I provided that the answer to each is "yes". Christ observed the Holy Days. The New Testament church did, long after his death. Paul exhorts the Church in Corinth "Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." (1 Corinthians 5:8), and in fact uses the Holy Days on numerous occasions to mark time, writing to people who, had they not been taught about the Holy Days, lived in parts of the world where they would have absolutely no idea when these days were to take place.

The various Bible commentaries trip over themselves trying every which way to explain why the apostles are determined to keep the Biblical feasts during their ministry.

And to me, the definitive proof is in Zechariah, which states clearly that nations will keep the Feast of Booths (Feast of Tabernacles) that celebrates Christ's millennial rule, during the Millennium. If we're not to keep the Holy Days now, therefore, it means that mankind was commanded to observe (the Hebrew word is more accurately translated "to protect; to guard") the Holy Days, then for a while he doesn't have to, then when Christ returns he has to keep them again? God tells us He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. It doesn't make any sense.

Read through Kings and Chronicles, and you'll find that even slight changes to the dates on which the Holy Days were kept resulted in stark condemnation from God. There were no replacements for the Holy Days. There was no repurposing of pagan holidays. Certainly not Christmas, Easter, Fat Tuesday, or St. Valentine's Day. The book of Exodus provides numerous admonitions to not follow after Pagan customs and traditions. Yet any Christian I know who celebrate Christ's birth do so with decorated trees, nativity scenes, yule logs, gift giving—all Pagan customs.

The typical response is "it can do no harm", but you might consider this article.

[sparkle]

The Hebrew name of this fifth book of the Pentateuch is Deva‧rim′ (Words), drawn from the opening phrase in the Hebrew text. The name “Deuteronomy” comes from the Septuagint Greek title Deu‧te‧ro‧no′mi‧on, literally meaning “Second Law; Repetition of the Law.” This comes from the Greek rendering of a Hebrew phrase in Deuteronomy 17:18, mish‧neh′ hat‧toh‧rah′, correctly rendered ‘copy of the law.’
The authenticity of Deuteronomy as a book of the Bible canon and the writership of Moses are well established by the fact that Deuteronomy has always been considered by the Jews as a part of the Law of Moses. The evidence for the authenticity of Deuteronomy is, in general, the same as that for the other four books of the Pentateuch. (See PENTATEUCH; also books under individual names.) Jesus is the foremost authority for the authenticity of Deuteronomy, quoting from it three times in turning away the temptations of Satan the Devil. (Mt 4:1-11; De 6:13, 16; 8:3) Also, Jesus answered the question as to what was the greatest and first commandment by quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5. (Mr 12:30) And Paul quotes from Deuteronomy 30:12-14; 32:35, 36.—Ro 10:6-8; Heb 10:30.
The time covered by the book of Deuteronomy is somewhat over two months in the year 1473 B.C.E. It was written on the Plains of Moab and consists of four discourses, a song, and a blessing by Moses as Israel camped on Canaan’s borders prior to entering the land.—De 1:3; Jos 1:11; 4:19.
Purpose. Despite the meaning of the name Deuteronomy, this book is not a second law nor a repetition of the entire Law but, rather, an explanation of it, as Deuteronomy 1:5 says. It exhorts Israel to faithfulness to Jehovah, using the generation of the 40 years’ wandering as an example to avoid. Moses explains and elaborates on some of the essential points of the Law and the principles therein, with a view to the altered circumstances of Israel when they would be settled permanently in the land. He adjusts some of the laws accordingly and gives further regulations concerning the administration of government in their settled condition in the Promised Land.

[Deleted]

(James 2:14-26). God's grace is a gift freely given to those who love Him and obey his commandments.

Another scripture that immediately comes to mind is Matthew 7:22-23:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Note that 'work iniquity' can (and often is translated) as "you who practice lawlessness", which is the denotation of iniquity.

Virgil. I admit in this instance I am shooting from the hip on the following.. I have not taken the above reference James 2 to study.. But.. The above almost sounds as if the cart is pulling the horse to say grace is given to those who love and obey God? We are in the dispensation of grace.. To my understanding.. It is a season of anyone who calls upon the Lord will be saved, not having to earn what only God can give, and that is salvation by faith in Jesus (his finished work on the cross).. We do not complete the work, God does, in us, by giving us his grace to help us to love him, to obey him and to do his will in the earth..

Consider the following account of Jesus raising the bar of holiness so high no man could attain lest he boast by his own merit his holy worth to receive.. Matthew 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery. 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.'

In essence, Jesus was saying, even if man were able to obey the Ten Commandments in the flesh, (which none are able to) he'd commit sin in the mind.. We would be damned if we did and damned if we didn't if it were not for the grace of God.. God makes this promise to the Son, that all the Father gives' the Son, He (God) will not lose any, but will raise every man/woman up in that last day, the Day of our Lord.. The sinner who hung on the cross next to Jesus only requirement to enter into paradise was to accept Jesus.. He left here without baptism that we know of or any other type merit system to enter into the kingdom of God..

Like the prodigal son.. If, the way some believe today, the believer's ability to lose their salvation is possible.. If some were to peek into his riotous living and not understanding how grace works, that man would be deemed lost.. But the Father never counted him out and grace brought that young man back to his senses.. Meaning, the prodigal put to remembrance who he was and all his Father had done for him.. Grace led him back home.. And when he returned home to his Father, the Father held nothing against him..

The true believer cannot out sin the grace of God.. Believing so is denying the power of God unto our salvation.. It may appear to the eye one has out sinned his eternal seat in heaven, but grace will continue to work on the believer's heart no matter how gross the sin until.. The true believer cannot sin comfortably for long.. They cannot. The holy spirit gently tugs at a man's heart to repent once they are face to face with Jesus or down so low they can't see the sky.. Why? Because, sin cannot have dominion over the believer when they TRULY belong to Jesus.. God has dominion over all the power of the wicked one and will fulfill the promise in John 6:38-40 to raise up all who truly belong to him. I have more faith in God's ability to keep us than I have in man's ability to keep himself..

[Deleted]

Oh.. Matthew 25 reference..

Those who said Lord Lord in the account above never received Christ as Lord.. They only claimed good works and thought they could merit the reward of entering into the kingdom of God without Jesus, but used his name to deceive for glory.. Their work of iniquity was doing it their own way as if being a god to themselves.. Lawlessness indeed, as in, not following God's way..

[Virgil Showlion]

Your post #311 raises a number of issues that I can address, Ms. heart. I don't have time right now to craft a detailed response. I will do so, time permitting, later this evening.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Thanks to the contributors to this thread. You all provide interesting and informative reading. I look forward to reading what I have missed during the day.

[trevorw2539]

Virgil. I won't print your quote for the sake of space. Just make a few points.

1. The temple wall didn't become a 'wailing' wall, place of prayer, until the probably the 16th century. Hebrews was written before the destruction of the Temple. If it had been the writers would surely have mentioned its destruction. And they talk of the sacrifices still taking place, but these finished with the Temples destruction.

I'm afraid I don't follow your 'understanding' of this book.
The first part sets out to prove the superiority of Christ over creation, man and the angels. It then sets out the superiority of Christ the High Priest over every other High Priest, even Melchizedec. It goes on to set out the superiority of the 'Law' of Calvary over the Law of Moses or new Covenant over the old Covenant. It shows how the Patriarchs of old were faithful to God, through often difficult circumstances, even though they knew they would not receive earthly reward, but a heavenly city. It climaxes in the exhortation of Heb. 12:22-24.
As I said before the writer/s were anxious to prevent Jewish converts returning to their old faith, practises which were now dead to them. Christ had taken their place.

Holy days. Did Christ and the disciples follow them. Of course. They were the Holy days of the faith of the time. As Christ said at one time when asked to do something 'my time is not yet come'. But he did it. However His time was yet to come.

I hadn't realised you equate some feasts with prophesies. I don't so I won't discuss that.

. Wave offerings and late summer offerings were for a nation of farmers, crop growers, shepherds, cattle herders and wine growers etc. The fact that we can 'adapt' some feasts to modern living I don't doubt
We can offer our own gifts in various ways.

Again I say did Christ instruct US to commemorate the last supper, or was it really for the disciples themselves. Did they carry it on of their own choice. Interestingly the first actual description we have of the last supper is from St. Paul.
I believe we are right to remember it.

I'm going quickly through.

1 Corinthians 5:8 is speaking spiritually

Quote
and in fact uses the Holy Days on numerous occasions to mark time, writing to people who, had they not been taught about the Holy Days, lived in parts of the world where they would have absolutely no idea when these days were to take place.

I think you underestimate the spread and knowledge of Judaism in the Roman/Greek world. It had spread far and wide, particularly after the dispersal of Israel and then Judah under the Assyrians and Babylonians.

Beware of prophecies. I don't see the Feast of Tabernacles in the book of Revelation, surely the definitive book on the end of time and Christs Kingdom.

Paul is supposed to have returned to Jerusalem to celebrate Pentecost. I suggest that he used the day as a guide as to when he wanted to be there. He certainly didn't celebrate Pentecost. He was arrested as foretold. His reason for going was 'I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing what awaits me there'.
Paul was away from Jerusalem for years at a time. We do not read of him returning for the main religious feasts at any time.
Paul went where the spirit led.

There were no replacements for the Holy Days. If you could not celebrate Passover on the day because you were unclean for some legitimate reason you could celebrate it later.

Quote The book of Exodus provides numerous admonitions to not follow after Pagan customs and traditions.

Unfortunately the Israelites were instructed by God to practise circumcision which was a pagan Egyptian practise long before Abraham.
Animal sacrifice was not new.

But I've said enough.

[Tired Tess]

This is a wonderful thread. I am enjoying reading and re-reading it. Thank you all for your sharing your knowledge. I wish I could express myself this way. You all sound so very scholarly.

[cranberry49]

Again I say did Christ instruct US to commemorate the last supper, or was it really for the disciples themselves. Did they carry it on of their own choice. Interestingly the first actual description we have of the last supper is from St. Paul.
I believe we are right to remember it.

Jesus said to “Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” (Luke 22:19) Paul said: “For as often as you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives.” (1 Cor. 11:26)

According to scripture, Jesus has not arrived yet (the second coming) to complete his salvation for mankind, has he? There is suppose to be an 'end to this present system of things.'

"Don't be troubled. You trust God, now trust in me. There are many rooms in my Father's home, and I am going to prepare a place for you. If this were not so, I would tell you plainly. When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am." (NLT, John 14:1-4)

When Jesus said to keep doing this in remembrance of him, until he returns, it means until his final return-- which will end in tribulation. Many things that are in the bible is meant for us to continue following. Such as to keep preaching the good news.

Besides how can one learn without a teacher?

[weltschmerz]

Hey Virgie! i happen to love Cadburys get them sent to me from England Have you ever tasted their Crunchie bars??? MMMMM!! so good!!!
---------------------
England? Order them from Canada....it's probably a lot cheaper.
www.canadianfavourites.com/Cadbury_Crunchie_p/cadbury009.htm

[cranberry49]

Holy days. Did Christ and the disciples follow them. Of course. They were the Holy days of the faith of the time. As Christ said at one time when asked to do something 'my time is not yet come'. But he did it. However His time was yet to come.

John 7:6-9 Then Jesus said to them, "My time has not yet come, but your time is always ready. The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil. You go up to this feast. I am not yet going up to this feast, for My time has not yet fully come." When He had said these things to them, He remained in Galilee.


John 7:10-13
But when His brothers had gone up, then He also went up to the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret. Then the Jews sought Him at the feast, and said, "Where is He?" And there was much complaining among the people concerning Him. Some said, "He is good"; others said, "No, on the contrary, He deceives the people." However, no one spoke openly of Him for fear of the Jews.

John 7:30-36
Therefore they sought to take Him; but no one laid a hand on Him, because His hour had not yet come. And many of the people believed in Him, and said, "When the Christ comes, will He do more signs than these which this Man has done?" The Pharisees heard the crowd murmuring these things concerning Him, and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take Him. Then Jesus said to them, "I shall be with you a little while longer, and then I go to Him who sent Me. You will seek Me and not find Me, and where I am you cannot come." Then the Jews said among themselves, "Where does He intend to go that we shall not find Him? Does He intend to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks and teach the Greeks? What is this thing that He said, ‘You will seek Me and not find Me, and where I am you cannot come’?"




His time to be captured and sacrificed had not come yet. He had more work to do before this happened. The scriptures had to be fulfilled.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Jul 31, 2012 15:26:39 GMT -5 @heart2heart said:

(James 2:14-26). God's grace is a gift freely given to those who love Him and obey his commandments.

Another scripture that immediately comes to mind is Matthew 7:22-23:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Note that 'work iniquity' can (and often is translated) as "you who practice lawlessness", which is the denotation of iniquity.

Virgil. I admit in this instance I am shooting from the hip on the following.. I have not taken the above reference James 2 to study.. But.. The above almost sounds as if the cart is pulling the horse to say grace is given to those who love and obey God? We are in the dispensation of grace.. To my understanding.. It is a season of anyone who calls upon the Lord will be saved, not having to earn what only God can give, and that is salvation by faith in Jesus (his finished work on the cross).. We do not complete the work, God does, in us, by giving us his grace to help us to love him, to obey him and to do his will in the earth..

Consider the following account of Jesus raising the bar of holiness so high no man could attain lest he boast by his own merit his holy worth to receive.. Matthew 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery. 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.'

In essence, Jesus was saying, even if man were able to obey the Ten Commandments in the flesh, (which none are able to) he'd commit sin in the mind.. We would be damned if we did and damned if we didn't if it were not for the grace of God.. God makes this promise to the Son, that all the Father gives' the Son, He (God) will not lose any, but will raise every man/woman up in that last day, the Day of our Lord.. The sinner who hung on the cross next to Jesus only requirement to enter into paradise was to accept Jesus.. He left here without baptism that we know of or any other type merit system to enter into the kingdom of God..

Like the prodigal son.. If, the way some believe today, the believer's ability to lose their salvation is possible.. If some were to peek into his riotous living and not understanding how grace works, that man would be deemed lost.. But the Father never counted him out and grace brought that young man back to his senses.. Meaning, the prodigal put to remembrance who he was and all his Father had done for him.. Grace led him back home.. And when he returned home to his Father, the Father held nothing against him..

The true believer cannot out sin the grace of God.. Believing so is denying the power of God unto our salvation.. It may appear to the eye one has out sinned his eternal seat in heaven, but grace will continue to work on the believer's heart no matter how gross the sin until.. The true believer cannot sin comfortably for long.. They cannot. The holy spirit gently tugs at a man's heart to repent once they are face to face with Jesus or down so low they can't see the sky.. Why? Because, sin cannot have dominion over the believer when they TRULY belong to Jesus.. God has dominion over all the power of the wicked one and will fulfill the promise in John 6:38-40 to raise up all who truly belong to him. I have more faith in God's ability to keep us than I have in man's ability to keep himself..

With God through the spirit. Well said heart!

[trevorw2539]

Cranberry quote His time to be captured and sacrificed had not come yet. He had more work to do before this happened. The scriptures had to be fulfilled.

That's what I said.

[cranberry49]

Aug 1, 2012 5:39:35 GMT -5 trevorw2539 said:

Cranberry quote His time to be captured and sacrificed had not come yet. He had more work to do before this happened. The scriptures had to be fulfilled.

That's what I said.

Ok. Then evidently I had a brain lapse! I guess I misunderstood your post. Sorry!

[jackthelad]

Some of you must have read the good book exstensively, not me, the good book is not the type of good book i like to read. A good fiction novel, they are more believeable than the good book.
Jeremy Paxman has got himself into hotwater for branding the book of Genesis as a load of hogwash, he said the literal believers of the Old Testament where stupid people. It not for me to say, i do believe that a lot of it is a load of hogswash as well.

PS, Prof Richard Dawkins has written a book called, The Magical Reality: How We Know What's Really True.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Good morning, good people. Looking forward to more interesting discussion today.

[trevorw2539]

Jul 31, 2012 21:11:08 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

Again I say did Christ instruct US to commemorate the last supper, or was it really for the disciples themselves. Did they carry it on of their own choice. Interestingly the first actual description we have of the last supper is from St. Paul.
I believe we are right to remember it.

Jesus said to “Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” (Luke 22:19) Paul said: “For as often as you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives.” (1 Cor. 11:26)

According to scripture, Jesus has not arrived yet (the second coming) to complete his salvation for mankind, has he? There is suppose to be an 'end to this present system of things.'

"Don't be troubled. You trust God, now trust in me. There are many rooms in my Father's home, and I am going to prepare a place for you. If this were not so, I would tell you plainly. When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am." (NLT, John 14:1-4)

When Jesus said to keep doing this in remembrance of him, until he returns, it means until his final return-- which will end in tribulation. Many things that are in the bible is meant for us to continue following. Such as to keep preaching the good news.

Besides how can one learn without a teacher?

Don't you find it interesting that Matthew and Mark do not mention 'remembering', and John ignores the last supper altogether. It's only Luke who does.
St Paul does and is the first to mention the last supper in letters compiled before the Gospels themselves. Considering that Paul is closely associated with Luke it's not surprising.

A lot of Luke's Gospel is compiled from Mark's and an outside source. Unfortunately he wasn't there at the Supper and relies on others.
Mark wasn't there. John and Matthew were. But then John ignores the supper and we don't know who wrote the gospel of Matthew.

Some things in the Bible are meant for us to follow. Some things in the Bible are not what they seem. If we stuck to the 'good news' and left the ritual behind perhaps we would get somewhere.

Rather than upset the faith of some on here I will leave the discussion, though I shall watch with interest.

[trevorw2539]

Aug 1, 2012 8:12:48 GMT -5 jackthelad said:

Some of you must have read the good book exstensively, not me, the good book is not the type of good book i like to read. A good fiction novel, they are more believeable than the good book.
Jeremy Paxman has got himself into hotwater for branding the book of Genesis as a load of hogwash, he said the literal believers of the Old Testament where stupid people. It not for me to say, i do believe that a lot of it is a load of hogswash as well.

PS, Prof Richard Dawkins has written a book called, The Magical Reality: How We Know What's Really True.

Jack you old rogue, you don't know what your missing. Anything you can find in a novel is in the Good Book. Love, hate, war, genocide, homicide, suicide, regicide, any other 'cide' you can think of, sex, adultery. You have DIY in shipbuilding, temple building, and tower building. You have geography, an atlas of ancient Mesopotamia, and exploration. .

What more could you possibly want.

Regards to the missus who, if I remember, is the DIY wizard in your house.

[Virgil Showlion]

heart, my response to your post will have to wait one more day. I figured since Trevor was taking his leave, I'd summarize my position in our arc and bid him good tidings.

1. The temple wall didn't become a 'wailing' wall, place of prayer, until the probably the 16th century.

I was invoking it as an example of orthodox Judaism—of the mentality the Jews had (have).

I'm afraid I don't follow your 'understanding' of this book.
The first part sets out to prove ... It climaxes in the exhortation of Heb. 12:22-24.
As I said before the writer/s were anxious to prevent Jewish converts returning to their old faith, practises which were now dead to them. Christ had taken their place.

Your summary is admirable up until your stated conclusion, which neglects the issue: what practices were dead to them? Christ had come to fulfill the law. What had he added to it that they were denying? We need to examine the matter carefully. If not, we throw out the law, the prophets, the Sabbath—all things that Christ by no means did away with.

There is no admonition in the Book of Hebrews or anywhere in the New Testament that Christ did away with the Holy Days as part of the new spiritual covenant, and plenty of indication that the apostles understood the spiritual significance of these days and were diligent in observing them.

Holy days. Did Christ and the disciples follow them. Of course. They were the Holy days of the faith of the time.

But think about this. If the apostles were truly criticizing the Hebrews for keeping the Holy Days, why would they make an overt show of keeping them themselves? Consider Galatians 2:11-14, where Peter is starkly rebuked for eating separately from the Gentiles in the presence of the Jews and acting differently when they weren't around. Yet this is precisely the implied hypocrisy of keeping the Holy Days simply because they were "the faith of the time".

What would the apostles tell the Gentiles? "Yes, we're diligent to keep the Holy Days, but we're only doing it because we grew up that way and we want to keep the Jewish brethren happy?" And what would they say to the Hebrews? "You know, you're rejecting Christ by keeping those Holy Days he did away with. But onto other matters... we'll see you again at the Feast when we keep it this year?"

Can you point to any example in scripture where the apostles and New Testament churches did anything simply because it was 'the faith of the time'? The only examples I can think of are the matters of circumcision and of eating meat sacrificed to idols. And as the Book of Acts clearly shows, the Church made a ruling on the matters and letters were sent out to all the churches with clear, unambiguous instructions.

We are to put on Christ (Romans 13:14, Galatians 3:27), doing as he did. The apostles saw that he kept the feasts. They kept them themselves in emulating him, not simply out of tradition or as menpleasers.

I hadn't realised you equate some feasts with prophesies. I don't so I won't discuss that.

Fair enough. I should point out that if you break it down verse by verse, a full quarter of the Bible is prophecy.

I'll also point out 1 Thessalonians 5:21: "Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

1 Corinthians 5:8 is speaking spiritually

Obviously we disagree.

I think you underestimate the spread and knowledge of Judaism in the Roman/Greek world. It had spread far and wide, particularly after the dispersal of Israel and then Judah under the Assyrians and Babylonians.

I also know that circa 2012, in the age of Internet, TV, mobile phones, and Wikipedia, I can count on one hand the number of non-Jews I know who have the slightest idea when the Day of Atonement takes place. Most Christians couldn't even tell you when the Jewish Passover is.

Again, it simply doesn't make sense that Paul would consistently mark time with the Feasts and Holy Days to a Gentile audience if these days had no direct significance to them.

Beware of prophecies. I don't see the Feast of Tabernacles in the book of Revelation, surely the definitive book on the end of time and Christs Kingdom.

It would be fair to say that The Book of Revelation is nearly all devoted to describing the Day of the LORD. It does talk about the Millennium and the Kingdom of God, but a good 95% of what we know about either of those topics falls outside of Revelations.

Paul is supposed to have returned to Jerusalem to celebrate Pentecost. I suggest that he used the day as a guide as to when he wanted to be there. He certainly didn't celebrate Pentecost. He was arrested as foretold. His reason for going was 'I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing what awaits me there'.
Paul was away from Jerusalem for years at a time. We do not read of him returning for the main religious feasts at any time.

The feasts didn't have to be kept in Jerusalem. The Feast of Tabernacles was to be kept at "the place where the LORD your God chooses to make His name abide" (Deuteronomy 12:11), be that in Gentile cities, or in Jerusalem, or wherever He so determined. The 'headquarters church', led by James, was in Jerusalem.

If you could not celebrate Passover on the day because you were unclean for some legitimate reason you could celebrate it later.

A specific exemption, clearly laid out by God. Given due to the importance of observing the day.

Unfortunately the Israelites were instructed by God to practise circumcision which was a pagan Egyptian practise long before Abraham. Animal sacrifice was not new.

Neither was marriage. That doesn't make it a Pagan custom. "Pagan" refers exclusively to practices in direct contravention of religious Law.


At any rate, I thank you for the discussion and pray that God will continue to bless you and guide your steps, sir.

[ktunes]

Beware of prophecies. I don't see the Feast of Tabernacles in the book of Revelation, surely the definitive book on the end of time and Christs Kingdom.

there are other prophecies that make it quite clear that the FOT will be kept after Christ's return...one example is zech 14...

what does not make sense is it was kept in the OT, then done away with only to have Christ re-institute it after His return???

it also seems to me there should be a desire to understand prophecies, God seems to have dedicated a lot of space to the subject...

[cranberry49]

Ok. Let's get some good conversation going on here! What say you? How many on here actually believe in a burning hell? What if we delve into this discussion? Game? If so...post and let's get the ball rolling! Mind you, I am not an expert on this subject, by any means! But, I do love discussing religion and reading what other posters have to say on the subject. I will give it my best shot, if any are interested!

[Deleted]

I don't know about 'burning" per se. But, i believe Hell is real and those who wind up there will experience eternal torment.

[Virgil Showlion]

What say you?

My views on the subject are more or less summarized in Reply #241 and Reply #247.

As for what any church says, or any person thinks about the subject: if it's not in scripture, I don't believe it. Humankind is abysmal in our capacity to speculate on spiritual matters.

[Deleted]

I agree. I try to hold my opinions based on Scripture. But, i realize there is a lot to learn and i don't always really know what the Scriptures say.

[cranberry49]

Gotta go for now...I will reply to the posts' as soon as possible!

[ktunes]

How many on here actually believe in a burning hell?

i guess that depends on your definition of a burning hell...but if you mean a place where one goes after death for eternal punishment, then no...that idea is not based on scripture...

[Deleted]

heart, my response to your post will have to wait one more day. I figured since Trevor was taking his leave, I'd summarize my position in our arc and bid him good tidings.

Virgil, I'm fine with that. I meant to acknowledge your comment yesterday.. Sorry..

How many on here actually believe in a burning hell?

Cranberry.. I do believe, because the word of God tells the reader, there is a hell reserved for the rebelled one and his imps and for those who chose not to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ during their lifetime.. I have not done a study on the particular topic..

But here is my personal feelings on hell. Whether it be a forever burning state or a burning up til ceasing to exist state.. Both states are tormenting.. I have no desire for either.. Not that you or anyone else asked or mentioned.. But that is not why I accepted Jesus Christ.. I accepted him because there was something about the gospel of Jesus Christ that was so appealing, and it was him!

[Deleted]

You know.. I heard something this morning that I feel is worth repeating, and I say it in reference to whether or not we should honor certain holy days that were established by God when his covenant was with the Jew only, at first time..

If the true believer does so, (honor holy days), regardless of what a pagan did/does concerning the day, ought not to be made to 'feel' less righteous.. The believer must judge within, why, they do anything so-called spiritual unto the Lord..Worship and prayer and serving, giving, communion, the studying of God's word, etc., can all be seen being done, but the motives behind even our right doings before others and the Lord, must be self judged..

Romans 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

When the believer stands before the judgement seat of God it will be for our rewards sake, only and for the following in my next post..

[Deleted]

While the grace of God abides in us that gives the believer the ability to live upright before God and man, God also commissions the believer to become discipled to disciple others in their worlds unto sound doctrine and good works..

Matthew 25

(To the blood bought and blood washed believer)

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’