frankq
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Post by frankq on Mar 11, 2013 16:05:40 GMT -5
www.aba.com/Members/Economic/Documents/September%202012%20TARP%20Bank%20Programs%20Have%20Been%20Repaid%20in%20Full.pdfDammotagain, the above source will clarify it for you, as will others. It also provides a chart of the auto company payback which sits at around 55%. HOWEVER, the report does not include the FACT that auto related employees CONTINUED TO PAY PAYROLL TAXES AND FICA. If you figure it out, the FACT that these people pay taxes over about 5 years pays back the taxpayers on it's own. The FACT that auto companies, excluding Ford because they didn't take the money, have paid back half the principal amount is additional. The FACT that Treasury still holds shares is icing on the cake. The FACT is, the taxpayers win on this deal. I know you guys won't accept the MAIN sources, but it is what it is. Looks like socialized economics to me. China would be proud!
The info you posted along with this post is nonsense, especially since it is without posted sources and links....
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frankq
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Post by frankq on Mar 11, 2013 16:10:38 GMT -5
mmhmm,
Why don't I see the post Number? I only gives me the post number as of today, not in total. I'm also not getting a post to mod prompt.
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frankq
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Post by frankq on Mar 11, 2013 16:18:49 GMT -5
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 11, 2013 16:52:06 GMT -5
Dunno about the post number thing, frankq. The Mods Only feature had to be removed, as posts made in that mode were visible to anyone using a mobile and fixing it on our end would cause more problems than it would solve, unfortunately.
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bimetalaupt
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Post by bimetalaupt on Mar 11, 2013 23:33:26 GMT -5
I do not know too many people that have all their eggs in one basket. You guys act like your the only ones happy to see the market up. To suggest it reflects the true nature of the US economy is ridiculous . Gold back up to 2000 by years end. I do not understand your math to back up this statement. When did it hit 2,000 USD per Troy oz ?
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Mar 11, 2013 23:34:24 GMT -5
Damnot you guys make it too easy. Although, I have to say that's nice to see you stand up for yourself, unlike some around here. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/cool.png) China is as capitalist as they come, are they a democracy? No. However, there are also thousands of mass demonstrations all around China and it's not getting easier for the commies to keep their people down. You're upset that the banks and business haven't paid all the money back, I get it. On the other hand the total sum of TARP has been paid back with a profits already, with more to come, and as Q points out the auto bailout paid for itself in GDP. Meanwhile the war on poverty has been going on for decades with trillions spent to "create" equality, and the income equality is just as bad as it was during the depression.(Which you guys point out all the time) All this money has gone to people who DON'T pay any tax at all, and will NEVER pay this money back, EVER. Where do you think all the tax money comes from, the middle class? Plz, 47% of the population pay 0 income tax, that is a fact. Big corporations and rich business people hide money offshore I have no doubt about that, but they are also the ones paying almost all of the tax. Why have some of these banks and companies like GE had such low tax bills over the last couple of years. LOSSES carried forward. It sucks because they got bailed out for sure. But then again that money is paid back so in fact these were losses. Here a little reading for you on the topic....
So How Much Tax Did Apple Pay?
What Do The 20 Biggest U.S. Companies Pay In Taxes?
Those are billions with a B. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/cool.png)
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Mar 12, 2013 6:24:37 GMT -5
I do not know too many people that have all their eggs in one basket. You guys act like your the only ones happy to see the market up. To suggest it reflects the true nature of the US economy is ridiculous . Gold back up to 2000 by years end. I do not understand your math to back up this statement. When did it hit 2,000 USD per Troy oz ?
Hello Mr. L hope all is well in Texas . It was close at one time just rounding up. Do you think this stock market is a true reflection of the US Economy ?
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Mar 12, 2013 6:28:11 GMT -5
Frankq , here is the link from post # 601
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Mar 12, 2013 6:43:31 GMT -5
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Mar 12, 2013 7:03:48 GMT -5
As far as Buffett goes, spoken like a true insider . ,” Buffett writes, “we are the leader in renewables: first, from a standing start nine years ago, we now account for 6% of the country’s wind generation capacity. Second, when we complete three projects now under construction, we will own about 14% of U.S. solar-generation capacity. Projects like these require huge capital investments. Upon completion, indeed, our renewables portfolio will have cost $13 billion. We relish making such commitments if they promise reasonable returns — and on that front, we put a large amount of trust in future regulation… It is in the self-interest of governments to treat capital providers in a manner that will ensure the continued flow of funds to essential projects.”
That last sentence says it all.
reason.com/archives/2013/03/04/warren-buffetts-economic-confusion
" A check of the Senate Lobbying records database discloses that MidAmerican — which Berkshire Hathaway owns — spent more than $1.5 million last year lobbying Congress on 41 pieces of legislation, including something called the “Energy Tax Prevention Act.” MidAmerican is also a member of the Edison Electric Institute, which spent more than $10 million on its own lobbying activities in 2012.
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frankq
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Post by frankq on Mar 12, 2013 15:58:47 GMT -5
From your source dammot, "The government committed bailout money to 924 recipients. Those recipients have received a total of $418 billion. A total of $360 billion has been returned.
The Treasury has been earning a return on most of the TARP money invested or loaned. So far, the total return is: $49.1B.
The main sources of that revenue are $22.2 billion through dividend or interest payments, $18 billion from sales of equity or other assets that Treasury acquired (mostly stock in Citigroup); and $9.32 billion through stock warrants which Treasury received as part of most of the investments. When companies pay back the TARP investment, the warrants are either sold back to the company or auctioned off.
When those revenues are taken into account, $8.48 billion is the net amount still outstanding.
While the Treasury has paid out money to 924 recipients, only 779 of those received funds via investments meant to return money to taxpayers. The rest received subsidies through TARP’s housing programs – that money (so far totaling $6.38 billion) isn’t coming back.
Of the 779 investments made by the Treasury, 435 have resulted in a profit. 65 of the investments resulted in a loss. So far, the profits amount to $41.5 billion, while the losses amount to $4.94 billion. 279 of the investments are still outstanding."
It looks like the big loser for the government so far is Fannie and Freddie, which were a government wet dream anyway. I don't believe that Fannie/Freddie money is included in the TARP total above. We'll see how that pans out. I don't know we can be reading this so many ways. Remember: MONEY THAT WENT TO THE AUTO COMPANIES KEPT OVER ONE MILLION GOOD PAYING JOBS RUNNING AND THOSE PEOPLE PAID, AND CONTINUE TO PAY, TAXES. That means for every one thousand dollars they paid in taxes it returned ONE BILLION in revenue. That also meant that one million people DIDN'T collect unemployment, food aid, medicaid, whatever that actually would have COST money as well. These people also continued to pay mortgages, property taxes, etc. It means they could continue to put money back into the economy instead of taking money from the economy in the form of aid. These things are never quantified in the simple minded calculations of some entities. Every year the fact that these people are working it probably means 20 billion in tax revenues. Every Year..... Now...count that in the return column. By the way, how many cars were sold last year??
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2013 16:16:11 GMT -5
the 78 companies that paid zero tax for at least one year 2008-10
do companies pay tax based on revenue, or profit?
did you look at the profits for those years?
do you expect companies to pay tax not owed?
i am not following any logic here.....
but it is an easy thing to say....mega corp paid 0 tax for year blah blah blah
too bad Paul Harvey isnt around to tell us the rest of the story.....
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Mar 12, 2013 17:18:28 GMT -5
Blah blah blah, see page 5 " Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand." "Homer Simpson "
1) paid on profit ! Lol , taxes not paid
www.ctj.org/corporatetaxdodgers/CorporateTaxDodgersReport.pdf
# Seventy-eight of the 280 companies paid zero or less in federal income taxes in at least oneyear from 2008 to 2010. Twenty-five of these companies enjoyed multiple no-tax years, bringingthe total number of no-tax years to 108. In the years they paid no income tax, these companiesearned $156 billion in pretax U.S. profits. But instead of paying $55 billion in income taxes as the35 percent corporate tax rate seems to require, these companies generated so many excess taxbreaks that they reported negative taxes (often receiving outright taxrebate checks from the U.S.Treasury), totaling $21.8 billion.These companies’ “negative tax rates” mean that they made more after taxes than before taxes in those no-tax years.2
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bimetalaupt
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Post by bimetalaupt on Mar 12, 2013 18:30:53 GMT -5
I do not understand your math to back up this statement. When did it hit 2,000 USD per Troy oz ?
Hello Mr. L hope all is well in Texas . It was close at one time just rounding up. Do you think this stock market is a true reflection of the US Economy ? DNA, The market( as expressed by Dow Jones US Total Market) is more then anything else a reflection of what Investors think of the future (like 6 to 12 month in the future),, We all live in a global economy ..With the EU Problems reducing the future I think if it was only the USA as used in the Projections know as MMXIII the market would be higher.. We have too many black swans.. Like 70 to 85%...High risk reduces the DJ US Total Market.. They are the real problem. Like What was Toxic asset three years ago is not being paned off as a safe investment.. I got two calls trying to sell our Hedge Fund these Junk CDO as A++ or AAA rated investments yesterday alone. I will tell you I am not the only person to question the Cold Calls. Great Question!!!! You should see the junk presented at A Class investment Real Estate.. Just a thought, Bruce ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/nerdy.png)
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Mar 13, 2013 0:24:25 GMT -5
Blah blah blah, see page 5 " Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand." "Homer Simpson "
1) paid on profit ! Lol , taxes not paid
www.ctj.org/corporatetaxdodgers/CorporateTaxDodgersReport.pdf
# Seventy-eight of the 280 companies paid zero or less in federal income taxes in at least oneyear from 2008 to 2010. Twenty-five of these companies enjoyed multiple no-tax years, bringingthe total number of no-tax years to 108. In the years they paid no income tax, these companiesearned $156 billion in pretax U.S. profits. But instead of paying $55 billion in income taxes as the35 percent corporate tax rate seems to require, these companies generated so many excess taxbreaks that they reported negative taxes (often receiving outright taxrebate checks from the U.S.Treasury), totaling $21.8 billion.These companies’ “negative tax rates” mean that they made more after taxes than before taxes in those no-tax years.2 Damnot, NP on keeping the debate clean. I think you might want to read your report closely there, and just think about the years in question. I have no doubt there are some loopholes that could be closed, however, at the same time Wealthy families’ taxes near 30-year high. Again, if it weren't for big corporations tax dollars, there would be no real tax income for the govt. If the govt hadn't operated under Keynesian economics for years there wouldn't be as much debt or need for taxes. What would happen then is that there would be less of a need to hid money to pay for things later, and money would become more productive. This is all in the pipeline btw and it's the biggest reason that the middle class will NOT vanish. It's going to take years for socialism to die, but dying it is. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/cool.png) On the topic of whatever happened to... Massive food shortages India to prioritise wheat exports to grapple with grain mountain.
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texasredneck
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Post by texasredneck on Mar 13, 2013 16:34:19 GMT -5
Ahamburger Where are you located? What country?
Here in Texas I see no sign socialism is sick, much less dying.
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bimetalaupt
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Post by bimetalaupt on Mar 13, 2013 23:37:37 GMT -5
Ahamburger Where are you located? What country? Here in Texas I see no sign socialism is sick, much less dying. A+++ is from West Canada...Socialism is killing the government health care fund..Also many of the real far Left countries are having to move to the central- right because thy have run in the deep red for years and now their bonds are junk. Check out Greece and Spain.. also know as PIIGS!!!!
Just a thought, BiMetalAuPt
PS: Rick Perry would have done a better job for the Ticket.. The problem was he was not right enough to win the nomination for the ticket and Someone else was too far to the right to win the Presidency.....
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texasredneck
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Post by texasredneck on Mar 14, 2013 1:26:24 GMT -5
Rick Perry shot himself in the foot on several occasions. Like wanting to do away with three cabinet positions, but remembering the names of only two.
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Mar 14, 2013 1:29:34 GMT -5
That's exactly it BiMetal. For 30 yrs there was nothing but business killing govt politics in Saskatchewan. Then we hit a DEBT wall, the NDP started talking like a conservative party and now we have the Sask Party that is 110% pro business. Not only that they have been working with big companies like Potash and Cameco to train a new generation of Aboriginal kids to work, not sit around and collect checks. It happened nationally as well in the 90's, DEBT wall and then a move to business and a cut in health care, we moved to a balanced budget and started to train people to work. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/cool.png)
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texasredneck
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Post by texasredneck on Mar 14, 2013 1:34:28 GMT -5
In the US what do we do?
Medicare is going broke so we add prescription drug coverage.
Then Obama adds obama care.
We are just like Greece and Spain just not as far along the path of destruction
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Mar 14, 2013 2:56:36 GMT -5
Nah Greece and Spain don't have the economic capacity that you guys do. Think about this, Greece is about 7% the size of the amount of farmland in the USA. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png) What do you guys have to do? That is the easy part. First you have to understand that what this is at it's base fundamentally is a tax issue, nothing more, no BS plot, nothing. It's a tax problem and the fact that programs are based of tax dollars. The easiest way to fix that to create jobs right? Which is happening but not fast enough, yet, but it will because there is a huge population retiring. But that's the problem right? A bigger burden. On that point, with more jobs than people, with education training that is place all over the country, technology, and programs that are being set up to hire vets there will be more people paying taxes overall than in the last generation(BABY boomers. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) ). Now that the country is at a debt wall, there will be a balanced budget in the next six years, just like there was in Canada(yes people will find work to support their cushy lifestyle). Just like in Canada food/natural resource production along with manufacturing, and that good old service economy, will provide surplus budgets just like in Canada from 2001-2007. On the point of the service economy, that why what you have to do is the easy part. It's really so easy it anyone can do it, handicap people take part in it to be honest with ya. All North America needs to keep going and produce profits is friends and family having fun together, enjoying the their free time and going to work to support it, you know the consumer. Corporate America is big enough now where govt stimulus isn't needed anymore(Keynesian economics), and yes they will spend to keep their empires, this has been demonstrated over the last couple months in the numbers. (Thanks JC) On the point of morals, I only bring it up because a I was chatting with a friend about all of this earlier tonight. With more people working there will be less idol hands. Less laziness means more productivity and a move towards a cleaner, healthier society.
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texasredneck
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Post by texasredneck on Mar 14, 2013 7:45:51 GMT -5
It's not a tax issue it is a sit on your butt and take the freebies issue.
Why work?
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usaone
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Post by usaone on Mar 14, 2013 8:37:47 GMT -5
Jobless claims down to 332,000. Lowest number in almost 6 years.
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sunrnr
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Post by sunrnr on Mar 15, 2013 8:53:20 GMT -5
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Mar 16, 2013 0:37:06 GMT -5
Wouldn't surprise me one bit Sun, nice find. I just read that China's Massive increase in gold investment unlikely, a clip.... Sounds to me like China wants gold at $900, to help increase consumer demand, it's not like the govt runs companies that supply gold to people or anything..... ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/cool.png) It's not a tax issue it is a sit on your butt and take the freebies issue. Why work? But that money comes from taxes, it all roots back to taxes and an issue that started in the 30's. James P. Warburg wrote a book about it, it's what we call deficit financing and all the issues it will cause. Here we are, some want to point to the removal of the gold standard as the reason that there is a massive debt, but the fact is that they would have keep raising the price of gold to print more money to pay for their promises. Those freebies come because politicians have promised tax money to people to get elected, now that there is 16 Trillion+ in debt there is no way that can continue. In Europe they tried to pull all the freebies quick, that didn't turn out to well. So in the USA they(politicians) will follow the Canadian model, which is get things growing again, then balance the budget and be happy with 3% growth because we aren't defect financing anymore there is a small surplus. People that live off tax money that think they are too good to work at MCD's will work at MCD's to keep their lifestyle. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/cool.png)
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texasredneck
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Post by texasredneck on Mar 16, 2013 7:52:14 GMT -5
AHAMBURGER Which came first the chicken or the egg?
Spending or taxing?
Spending came first because politicians found it easy to buy votes.
Massive tax increases started about 1933 to make it possible to continue spending.
Hence it is a spending problem.
Fewer people will ever retire. We now have a work till you drop economy.
Young people will find fewer jobs available.
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blackliver
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Post by blackliver on Mar 16, 2013 9:50:32 GMT -5
Where is it written that we are "entitled" to retirement? I know people worth tens of millions that work every day and they are in their 70's & 80"s. Nothing wrong with working. As far as the young people, every one that has a half a brain, a lot of ambition and dedication, is getting good jobs right out of school. Some even before graduating. Things aren't that bad.
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Mar 16, 2013 10:31:42 GMT -5
I think I saw it written here. Wonder how many members of congress remain in this "entitled" retirement system. I would assume more than not. Since the benefit amount received Is greater than under the FERS. Established 1986 ? " The Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS) is a defined benefit, contributory retirement system. Employees share in the expense of the annuities to which they become entitled."
www.opm.gov/retirement-services/csrs-information/
As always what is good for congress is a lot more generous than that " entitlement " I contribute to
Called social security? But your right SS is anything but secure.
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bimetalaupt
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Post by bimetalaupt on Mar 16, 2013 23:09:16 GMT -5
Where is it written that we are "entitled" to retirement? I know people worth tens of millions that work every day and they are in their 70's & 80"s. Nothing wrong with working. As far as the young people, every one that has a half a brain, a lot of ambition and dedication, is getting good jobs right out of school. Some even before graduating. Things aren't that bad. Bismark started the retirment system in Germany to stop the brain drain to the USA at around Germany became the first nation in the world to adopt an old-age social insurance program in 1889, designed by Germany's Chancellor, Otto von Bismarck. The idea was first put forward, at Bismarck's behest, in 1881 by Germany's Emperor, William the First, in a ground-breaking letter to the German Parliament. William wrote: ". . .those who are disabled from work by age and invalidity have a well-grounded claim to care from the state."Bismarck was motivated to introduce social insurance in Germany both in order to promote the well-being of workers in order to keep the German economy operating at maximum efficiency, and to stave-off calls for more radical socialist alternatives. Despite his impeccable right-wing credentials, Bismarck would be called a socialist for introducing these programs, as would President Roosevelt 70 years later. In his own speech to the Reichstag during the 1881 debates, Bismarck would reply: "Call it socialism or whatever you like. It is the same to me."The German system provided contributory retirement benefits and disability benefits as well. Participation was mandatory and contributions were taken from the employee, the employer and the government. Coupled with the workers' compensation program established in 1884 and the "sickness" insurance enacted the year before, this gave the Germans a comprehensive system of income security based on social insurance principles. (They would add unemployment insurance in 1927, making their system complete.) Payment at the time was replacement income of 100%!!!
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frankq
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Post by frankq on Mar 17, 2013 9:16:48 GMT -5
AHAMBURGER Which came first the chicken or the egg?
Definitely the egg. The domestic chicken is a cross between two Asian species, Gallus gallus and G. sonneratii. The first gallus domesticus (domestic chicken) then hatched from that pairing, thus the egg came first.
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