mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 9, 2013 17:44:35 GMT -5
As I said, I haven't seen ANYONE accused of being un-American, damnot.
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bimetalaupt
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Post by bimetalaupt on Mar 9, 2013 18:46:51 GMT -5
Gold hit $1918 in August 2011. The Dow was around 11k at that time. Now Gold is $1570 and going nowhere fast. The Dow is at 14.4k and still climbing. Not hard to figure out were you should have put your money to work over the last two years. USA WON, Gold is going fast..From the ground to Sellers .. You know the sellers that keep saying " Experts say gold will sell for $4,000/TO real soon.. Mining firms have invested $Billions in increased production..Prices will be stable only if they mines are only making a normal return..Cost to produce one TO of Gold is about $750.. Why buy something that will decline in value..Recall the 1970's and all the experts said gold has nowhere to go but up.. in 1999 gold sold for about $285/TO.. In 1492 the value of gold was about 3,500 in 1999 dollars. Storage of value.. Try rare Wine. BiMETALaUPt
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frankq
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Post by frankq on Mar 9, 2013 19:09:24 GMT -5
The distribution of the stock market's largesse has been perhaps the most un-egalitarian aspect of American economics for years. A full 50 percent of all capital gains go not to the richest 1 percent of Americans, but to the richest 0.1 percent, according to The Washington Post.
Maybe that's because the top .1 percent of people, including some out here, realized that the world wasn't ending and bought stocks and continue to do so. As far as I know, they sell them to anybody....
We've said it before...if your betting on the End of Times scenerio, you're likely to have a long wait.....
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frankq
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Post by frankq on Mar 9, 2013 19:17:14 GMT -5
"So what does it say about the Dow that it can hit this dizzying new height -- impressive by any measure in any era, post-crash or otherwise -- at a time when the overall global economic outlook is so dismal, and the domestic recovery is barely felt by the citizens who sacrificed their capital to save the world from calamity? It says that we should be gravely concerned. It says that we have a two-tiered economy, one where profits flow and another where risks lurk. It says that a lot of people are being left behind. And if October 2007 is any guide, it says that this display of prosperity may simply be an illusion." The distribution of the stock market's largesse has been perhaps the most un-egalitarian aspect of American economics for years. A full 50 percent of all capital gains go not to the richest 1 percent of Americans, but to the richest 0.1 percent, according to The Washington Post.
www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/09/dow-jones-record-high_n_2839862.html
By the way, this is the paragraph preceding what you see above in the same article:
"All of which leads to an obvious point: although we recognize that the long-term trend of the stock market is that it has an overall upward trajectory -- punctuated in snapshots by the susurrations of the greed/fear cycle -- it’s nevertheless catnip for a lot of wild-eyed prognosticators. And the over-reliance of using the stock market as evidence of economic recovery, or proof of economic fundamentals, is acute."
An overall upward trajectory...is exactly what we, as investors, look for. Just saying........
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frankq
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Post by frankq on Mar 9, 2013 19:21:23 GMT -5
Bruce, you're one of the smartest guys I know. The issue I have is that all these metals guys tell you how scarce the stuff is, and then advertise that they'll sell it to you for 1% over cost....and they are more than happy to take your paper "debt notes" as payment... I just have to wonder.....
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sunrnr
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Post by sunrnr on Mar 9, 2013 22:24:16 GMT -5
Humm ... on one hand I read the price of gold will go through the roof should the economy collapse. On the other hand, I read the price of gold is being artificially held down by the central banks. However, the price of gold is always given in USD, which everyone says is becoming worthless because of the amount of printing the Fed has been doing. Also, the price of gold is actually the price quoted each day for futures CONTRACTS for the sale/acquisition gold in the short and long term? I'm obviously really confused. Gold is valued in worthless debt paper? If it's an investment, how does one realize the worth when it's needed? You can't demand your physical gold for the ETF's, etc. as each existing ounce has been leveraged an unknown number of times by an unknown number of "investors". Explain to me why the precious metals futures market is any different than the derivatives market the banks came up with. Billions (trillions) of worthless dollars are made/lost on make believe, non-existent quantities of gold/silver. WTF?
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bimetalaupt
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Post by bimetalaupt on Mar 9, 2013 23:01:35 GMT -5
Humm .. . on one hand I read the price of gold will go through the roof should the economy collapse. If the price of gold goes to say 2,500 per troy oz then the profits from gold mining will more then double and many more mines will be opened..Gold will go down to the point where production will only make cost of capital....During the depression the best stock were gold stocks due in parts lower cost of production with lower cost of equipment, diesel and labor... New technology also make that cyanide processing!!!BiMetalAuPt On the other hand, I read the price of gold is being artificially held down by the central banks. However, the price of gold is always given in USD, which everyone says is becoming worthless because of the amount of printing the Fed has been doing. Also, the price of gold is actually the price quoted each day for futures CONTRACTS for the sale/acquisition gold in the short and long term? Many mines have been writing Future contract as current prices.. IE they think gold is going down so the paper gold is running way above real gold..BiMetalAuPt
I'm obviously really confused. Gold is valued in worthless debt paper? If it's an investment, how does one realize the worth when it's needed? You can't demand your physical gold for the ETF's, etc. as each existing ounce has been leveraged an unknown number of times by an unknown number of "investors". In fact many Central Banks are buying Gold..ESP Russia and China!! Gold is a gamble not an investment....Produces no income and can and will lose a lot of money..BimetalAuPt
Explain to me why the precious metals futures market is any different than the derivatives market the banks came up with. Billions (trillions) of worthless dollars are made/lost on make believe, non-existent quantities of gold/silver. WTF? I n fact the USD is in a bull Market.. It reflect buying power and Germany,China and France needs to export to the USA and Encourage Tourism to pay for there high priced Hotel and Food industries.. Price LaTour at your wine retailer.. I will buy Texas for 10% of the cost..Becker's Claret is as good esp the 2005!!! Now the the number one reason...USA is a net exporter of Gold!!!There is no end in sight for gold production but an end for the need of gold as more and more hits the market...GERS is going to reduce the cost of producing gold and that will drop the price of gold before the Central Banks can say SELL GOLD..IMHO BimetalAuPt On the other hand Platinum is an industrial Metal...
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frankq
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Post by frankq on Mar 10, 2013 9:56:05 GMT -5
Now the the number one reason...USA is a net exporter of Gold!!!There is no end in sight for gold production but an end for the need of gold as more and more hits the market...GERS is going to reduce the cost of producing gold and that will drop the price of gold before the Central Banks can say SELL GOLD..IMHO BimetalAuPt
Sounds like a bad time to have all of your eggs in a gold basket......
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Mar 10, 2013 10:38:32 GMT -5
I do not know too many people that have all their eggs in one basket. You guys act like your the only ones happy to see the market up. To suggest it reflects the true nature of the US economy is ridiculous .
Gold back up to 2000 by years end.
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frankq
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Post by frankq on Mar 10, 2013 11:39:00 GMT -5
The only thing ridiculous is your, and others, ability to ignore the fact that economies, while not robust, are improving. The "true" nature of the economy has yet to reveal itself. The markets are forward looking. It's obvious that, while surely we're not the only ones happy to see the market, you and at least a couple of others out here are not. I hope your gold goes to $2000 by years' end, for then you would have at least broken even over the last two years. While you say that you don't know too many people that have their eggs in one basket, it is obvious from your postings on several threads, as well as at least one other "investor", that yours are...
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frankq
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Post by frankq on Mar 10, 2013 13:30:25 GMT -5
How in the world can such employment held for instance,in a work area that is supposebly responsible for the concern of every single living thing in the world,to keep that care up,yet the worker has no idea what has been going on,or gives a 50/50 approach to and shoves the mess in another direction and acts stupid.What And please.... Can we start quoting sources other than metals sites, that are in the business of.......selling metals? What do you guys actually think they would say about stocks? And, lets not give too much credibility to Dr. Paul Roberts across the street there boys, who, in spite of countless reels of video from a number of sources that clearly show two great big things we call airliners hit the twin towers on the World trade Center, maintains that it was a government plot to facilitate an Iraq invasion and that the buildings were imploded by our own people, even though nobody working in the buildings 24 hours a day saw any of the small army of people and equipment it would have taken to precut supports, drill concrete and plant explosives throughout the buildings including the office areas, and run the miles of wire to detonate said explosives which surely would have been visible, in a building with state of the art video survailence. And obviously, they must have known that two planes would hit and when........ I thought we were done with this ......If you're going to hang your financial future on this guy, who it can be argued is possibly losing his mind, have at it... Let's try to move the conversation forward with more credible information...
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frankq
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Post by frankq on Mar 10, 2013 14:45:49 GMT -5
Read through a bunch of Dr. Paul's stuff, and all I can say is...WOW....the guy is waaaay out there. I cansee where our friend gets a lot of his info, right down to the terminology (sheeple- big Dr. Paul word). The guy is big in the Infowars world too and a frequent Alex Jones guest. A lot of people who don't really know much about Alex Jones caught a piece of his act recently on CNN with Piers Morgan. Yeah, he did the pro gun people a real favor with that rant.....
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Mar 10, 2013 15:37:01 GMT -5
frankq , " The "true" nature of the economy has yet to reveal itself". As of March 8th a record number of people are on food stamps . Adding almost 100,000 a month. That is revealing indeed.
FY 2013 | 47,675,299 |
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| Source : SNAP |
There we're only 32 million on food stamps when Obama took office. That's a 50% increase since 2009. That's a recovery?
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frankq
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Post by frankq on Mar 10, 2013 16:31:26 GMT -5
Damnot,
Do you think that has anything to do with standards being relaxed? Do you see any of us that you insist are "sunshine pumpers" insisting it's wine and roses? Show me. We've said it's better. We've said it's better. Nobody said it's better thanever or great. And yes, since the market looks a year out, the TRUE nature of the economy has yet to be revealed. Nobody said it's all going to be like it was back in the day when mom stayed home and dad worked his 40 and came home to a simpler life. Have you researched how many of those people you speak of on food stamps are ILLEGALS that shouldn't even be here! Well guess what, now that Obamacare is taking hold, we'll have more part-time jobs that used to be full-time jobs and more people will probably hit the stamps before it's over. Maybe we just make it too fucking easy NOT to work in this country since we can't seem to find anyone to work out factories except Mexicans. I heard somewhere that a family can get aid from various sources amounting to over 40K. I'll have to research that. But even with all that nonsense, data from a VAST number of sources with the exception of the metals peddlers and extremists is pretty clear. If you guys want to ignore the signs of an IMPROVING economy and hitch your wagon to that retard Alex Jones and Dr Paul Roberts, who insists that the government imploded the World Trade Center and is still talking about the Rothschilds, and how the Federal government is actively murdering it's citizens, and the rest of the extremist bullshit he spews, go ahead. Personally, I think the guy is losing his marbles...
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frankq
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Post by frankq on Mar 10, 2013 16:50:34 GMT -5
Texas was $59,500 and a family of four could not exceed $17,850, or 30 percent, in income at the time of publication to qualify for welfare. Income plays a significant role in the amount of benefits a recipient receives.
Read more: How Much Money Does a Family of Four Receive in Welfare? | eHow.com www.ehow.com/info_8590871_much-family-four-receive-welfare.html#ixzz2NAv4rIJKThe calculation for cash assistance includes monthly income, the need standard and the payment standard. The need standard varies based on location, family size and shelter costs and it defines the amount of money necessary to support the applicant. The payment standard determines the maximum amount a family can receive considering income and other resources. Each locale determines the standards based on the median annual income for the area. For example, a single-parent family of four in Texas can receive a payment of $312 per month. A two-parent household of four can receive $320 maximum per month
Read more: How Much Money Does a Family of Four Receive in Welfare? | eHow.com www.ehow.com/info_8590871_much-family-four-receive-welfare.html#ixzz2NAvCcGxTApplicants receive food assistance benefits as part of the welfare program. The maximum monthly amount of benefits a family of four could receive was $668 as of June 2011. But the maximum amount is affected significantly by a recipient's annual income. For example, if a family of four earns $250 per month of countable income, the monthly food payment is reduced to $418.
Read more: How Much Money Does a Family of Four Receive in Welfare? | eHow.com www.ehow.com/info_8590871_much-family-four-receive-welfare.html#ixzz2NAvOk7wgSo, lets do a little math. This is for Texas, not a state with the highest cost of living by any means. Let's say the family in question makes about $10/hour. That brings them in at about the maximum allowed which is $17,000/yr 17,000 +4,000 in additional cash aid= $21,000 Now lets add food aid "stamps" of $418/month for another $5000/yr. That's $26,000. Of course, these families qualify for section 8 housing so your looking at getting at least 1/2 their rent I believe. Lets say that's worth about #300+mo. for about $4000/yr. That gets us to $30,000. And we haven't even factored in S.S. health benefits and state Medicaid. And it's all no taxes paid since their income is below the threshhold. That;s about $600/week of spendable assistance. In Texas, that's pretty good. Maybe they're not flying to Disney World, but pretty good. Let's just say that they're not living under a bridge. And we're talking able bodied people here, not handicaped. So, if someone is on unemployment, they still qualify for Medicaid. Food stamps too. Yeah, maybe it's a little to easy.
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Mar 10, 2013 17:19:47 GMT -5
It is to easy frankq . Like you I am tired of the handouts and free shit to illegals. I am tired of watching this great country sold out by corporations interested in nothing but profit at all cost. I am tired of paying taxes, 25k this year, and watching it pissed away on bankers and all the other welfare kings. It's coming to a head frankq. I am not the only one tired of all the bullshit Washington is pumping out. Be it sunshine or not.
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frankq
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Post by frankq on Mar 10, 2013 19:31:38 GMT -5
That's fine. As I've said long before now, we don't make the game or the rules. If we want to succeed as investors, we have to play. We have to negotiate around that which others would have you think is real and make our decisions based on our own observations and available information. What information, and where you get it, is the tricky part. I'm not taking the Infowars people seriously. Look up Alex Jones contract. He gets paid in USD. I also can't take seriously anyone who maintains that our government imploded the WTC amongst other ridiculous assertions. When you talk bankers, remember, the TARP money was mandatory. The auto company money has been paid back. I've gone through the math regarding how it worked so many times that I can't do it anymore. Suffice to say, that over a million people continued to work and pay taxes instead of becoming economic burdens. On top of that, the dough got paid back by the auto companies. AIG paid back the money they got in full with a profit for taxpayers. The whole world owes everybody else money. It's never going to be paid back. At some point, as we've seenwith Greece and I said would happen a long time ago, there will be debt reductions and loan writedowns worldwide. No nation is going to take anything from any other nation. China isn't going to do shit. They've been stealing from us for decades. They do business with the U.S and E.U. We are their best customers. You don't fuck with the goose if you want the eggs. World commerce will continue because there is simply no other option. Gold will not sail to the stratasphere because countries need to back their money because, regardless of what some people think, gold isn't fully backing any country's money. Do you really think that we trade currencies with oil rich Middle Eastern nations because they have...GOLD? Do you think the E.U. is backing the Euro with GOLD? Do you think that Russia and China have fully gold backed currencies? If gold is the standard we must keep, then how can economies continue to grow with the population and how does the money suppy expand in response if the amount of gold is finite? Gold is becoming a relic. There will come a time when the world officially admits what we already know, that the currency of a nation will be backed by the commodities said nations hold that are vital to our ways of life. Period. If that means a basket of commodities, then that is what it will be. We need stuff like oil and iron and various other minerals and metals to make the stuff we now need to live.
The world will continue on. You'd best be on it. Believe it or not, I really don't wish any of you guys anything but well. It's just an old debate that is going nowhere. All I can do is try to keep fighting the good fight, as I'm sure you guys will too.
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sunrnr
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Post by sunrnr on Mar 10, 2013 20:58:08 GMT -5
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sunrnr
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Post by sunrnr on Mar 10, 2013 21:17:51 GMT -5
Towards the end of 2011, the estimated amount of gold EVER MINED was 171,300 meteric tonnes. If valued at $1,900 per troy ounce (end of September 2011), the value of all the gold ever mined would exceed $10.4 trillion USD. China is estimated to have between 2000 to 8000 meteric tonnes of gold reserves. The US almost 9000 meteric tonnes. Using the $1,900 per troy ounce figure one meteric tonne would be valued at $61.1 million USD. This would give China ~$0.5 trillion USD or $3.04 trillion yuan at the current exchange rate. The value of the current US gold reserves would be ~$0.55 trillion USD. I'm just curious how you can have a gold backed economy with these numbers ( although that's what it appears China is trying to do). By the way over half the gold in existence is tied up in jewelry ..... I'm obviously missing something about the gold hype!
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Viva La Revolucion!
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Mar 10, 2013 22:51:12 GMT -5
The Gold standard? Nixon took the USA off that because France and others were messing with the USD using gold. Ironically, the only reason there is a gold market is because there is no Gold standard. Gold was like 70 bucks in the 70's and around $40 in the 30's, and the FED still values there gold at like $40. If there was still a Gold standard it would be around $300 at best right now because there would be no need to mine it. PER BiMetal's post, make sure you read it. Consumers are driving the recovery! Don't be ridiculous aham. The government bought all of those 15 million cars and now the're buying all those houses to drive up the prices. It's a well known fact that the government is paying all the homebuilders to build houses too. Get off of the printed news such as Wall Street Journal, Barrons, Crains and numerous channels of cable and satelite broadcast news. If it isn't from InfoWars, Mother Jones or any of the specialty metals sites, it's bullshit.... Ah yes of course, how could I forget. Well I guess it's probably because I don't read enough Infowars eh? EXACTLY! Honestly I am so sick and tired of the BS "the corporations" are selling us out crap. The GOVT has been running wild for years because they are filled with delusions of grandeur from being entitled second and third generation rich kids. Funny thing is it was a banker by the name of James P. Warburg, in 1932, that was warning people of the dangers of Keynesian economics and here we are; the politicians are broke, and business is still making money and EMPLOYING people. On that point damnot, economics has already taken care of the "revolution" we need. That's why it's the American Renaissance; America has already had their revolution and civil war. Now Free Enterprise has to encircle the globe and that will happen one uprising/civil war at a time.
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Mar 11, 2013 5:13:04 GMT -5
Looks like socialized economics to me. China would be proud!
Refunds | $361B |
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Money returned to Treasury by bailed-out companies. | Dividends | $72.7B |
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Revenue Treasury has earned on its investments through dividend payments. | Interest | $1.79B |
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Revenue Treasury has earned through its loans through interest payments. | Warrants | $9.32B |
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Revenue Treasury has earned from selling stock warrants it held on companies that have paid back its investment. | Other Proceeds | $17.5B |
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Revenue from fees and sales of equity or other assets. |
Net Outstanding: $144B
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Mar 11, 2013 8:06:07 GMT -5
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Mar 11, 2013 8:44:46 GMT -5
Just some more Bullshit!
"In 2010, Bank of America set up more than 200 subsidiaries in the Cayman Islands (which has a corporate tax rate of 0.0 percent) to avoid paying U.S. taxes. It worked. Not only did Bank of America pay nothing in federal income taxes, but it received a rebate from the IRS worth $1.9 billion that year. They are not alone. In 2010, JP Morgan Chase operated 83 subsidiaries incorporated in offshore tax havens to avoid paying some $4.9 billion in U.S. taxes. That same year Goldman Sachs operated 39 subsidiaries in offshore tax havens to avoid an estimated $3.3 billion in U.S. taxes. Citigroup has paid no federal income taxes for the last four years after receiving a total of $2.5 trillion in financial assistance from the Federal Reserve during the financial crisis.
On and on it goes. Wall Street banks and large companies love America when they need corporate welfare. But when it comes to paying American taxes or American wages, they want nothing to do with this country. That has got to change.
Offshore tax abuse is not just limited to Wall Street. Each and every year corporations and the wealthy are avoiding more than $100 billion in U.S. taxes by sheltering their income offshore.
Pharmaceutical companies like Eli Lilly and Pfizer have fought to make it illegal for the American people to buy cheaper prescription drugs from Canada and Europe. But, during tax season, Eli Lilly and Pfizer shift drug patents and profits to the Netherlands and other offshore tax havens to avoid paying U.S. taxes." link (Huffington Post)
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 11, 2013 9:05:45 GMT -5
Damnotagain, I've put a link into your Reply #603 to reference the material you cut and pasted here. Please, in future, always provide a link to cut/paste material to avoid copyright issues, as per our CoC. Thanks.
mmhmm, Administrator
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2013 9:09:16 GMT -5
Would you as a CEO purposely pay more in taxes than you HAVE to?
How long before the board of directors and shareholders would ask for your head on a platter?
Our tax code is so full of crap, that it is well over 1100+ pages long
Yes...lobbyists are to blame along with the legislative branches....both of which get money from the people and companies that benefit most
And there is a difference in not repatriating profits earned in foreign countries versus just offshoring profits
Do i bring back capital to the US paying 30-40% in taxes....or do i keep in in the country where it was EARNED!
Some of this is pretty common sense.....
You just have to think, what would i do in that situation?
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usaone
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Post by usaone on Mar 11, 2013 9:14:42 GMT -5
It is to easy frankq . Like you I am tired of the handouts and free shit to illegals. I am tired of watching this great country sold out by corporations interested in nothing but profit at all cost. I am tired of paying taxes, 25k this year, and watching it pissed away on bankers and all the other welfare kings. It's coming to a head frankq. I am not the only one tired of all the bullshit Washington is pumping out. Be it sunshine or not. 99% of your tax dollars are NOT going to welfare and the banks have paid the money back with interest. We lost the election. Get over it. You need to direct your anger at our Party who cant get out of its own way anymore to win an election.
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Mar 11, 2013 9:17:04 GMT -5
I pay taxes . Subsidizing these money makers does nothing for mr and mrs smith. Just moves them closer to a paupers grave.
Most shareholders are pissed as corporate pay increases and lowers dividends.
Thank you mmhmm, tried to edit and post the link. Few bugs on editing .
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 11, 2013 9:19:44 GMT -5
No problem, damnot. I try to find a link when I can, but I'm not always able to do so ... or, the link I may provide may not be the one from which the poster gets the material. Just reminding, as we don't want to get our arses in a sling for copyright infringement!
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usaone
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Post by usaone on Mar 11, 2013 9:45:13 GMT -5
I pay taxes . Subsidizing these money makers does nothing for mr and mrs smith. Just moves them closer to a paupers grave. Most shareholders are pissed as corporate pay increases and lowers dividends. Thank you mmhmm, tried to edit and post the link. Few bugs on editing . I'm not happy about Corporate pay vs Dividends either over the last few years. Dividends are finally starting to increase now though.
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frankq
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Post by frankq on Mar 11, 2013 15:50:42 GMT -5
That pretty much sums it up I'd say...
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