I am in the same place all the liberals were

[cme1201]

Jul 3, 2012 11:57:34 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jul 3, 2012 11:40:47 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

That said, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how they're going to round up all these "illegals" and whisk them off to Mexico. It ain't that easy, fellas.

Three legged stool. (not necessarily rounding everyone up some will self deport others will need to be caught)

Leg One - Sharply escalating fine for businesses that hire "undocumented immigrants" (be cause illegal has become so unPC). Start the fine high around 10k per worker escalating at 50% each incident per worker, will require a national e-verify system ***Most of the government contracts that we do require that we certify that we will use the e-verify system so it is already in place***

Leg Two - No Benefits for those who are not citizens. Birth certificates and proper ID should be used by social service to truly verify who is receiving government benefits could be used in conjunction with the national database.

Leg Three - (in effect not strong enough but, growing) Find them at the border before they are able to get on land.

Remove the incentives plain and simple for illegal immigration and they will not want to come as the watershed it has been since Reagan's amnesty in 1986 (a four fold increase in 26 years).

a few ideas to kick around.

Great to see you posting, cme!

Leg 1 and Leg 2 are certainly viable and are steps I've advocated in the past to begin getting some control over this issue. Leg 3, however, is another animal, as you point out. It's just not that easy, unfortunately. Both our Mexican border and our Canadian border are porous and have been porous. If we build a fence, they'll go over it, under it, or around it.

Who said fence? Not I, Drones, Orbital Satellites and allowing the INS, Border Patrol, Local Police actually enforce the laws of the land would be better use of time and money/manpower. Creating a few extra entry points (manned who watch the data from the the sources that we already have available)

[formerroomate99]

Also, so many against immigration are ignoring the stuff they do that helps us all - like giving us cheap food. Sure you could pay an american twice as much to do the same work, but do you really think people want to pay twice as much for an apple or orange juice? What will happen is the amount of fruit & veggies that is imported will increase because american grown food will be too expensive.

I was under the impression that workers in the field made considerably more than minimum wage. If that is not the case, then feel free to ignore the rest of my post.
It is fairly common for workers at retail establishments to refuse increased hours or promotions due to the benefits they will loose. If the income limits for benefits means that someone working full time or more at a dirty job will have the same standard of living as someone working 30 hours a week at some air conditioned retail job, then even if the hourly wages at the dirty job are higher than the retail job, it is no suprise that you can't find Americans to do the kinds of jobs that illegals take. But it is due more to the government's choosing to distort the labor market than anything else. Americans were perfectly willing to pick produce and work in slaughterhouses before the government started paying people to sit on their duffs.

[jkapp]

Jul 3, 2012 9:46:53 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Jul 3, 2012 7:44:01 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Quote:Find a humane way to deal with our current problem while also finding a way to deter future illegal immigration.
...........................................................................................................................................

Airconditioned busses with plenty of restroom stops, at enclosed military bases with meals at properly guarded military commisaries, or PX's on the way to the Mexican border, would be more than humane.
We have plenty of military bases in the south and Texas to accomplish this humanely.
It might even be the "deter" to lesson the flow from the southern countries.

HaHa!!

The threat of a nice comfy bus ride home won't really deter anyone from coming here. This will become another war on drugs costing massive amounts of money and accomplishing nothing. In fact you will increase your workload because you will probably start having deport the same people because they will just keep coming back.

Also, so many against immigration are ignoring the stuff they do that helps us all - like giving us cheap food. Sure you could pay an american twice as much to do the same work, but do you really think people want to pay twice as much for an apple or orange juice? What will happen is the amount of fruit & veggies that is imported will increase because american grown food will be too expensive.

You aren't going to be giving these jobs to americans, these jobs will just cease to exist. This will do nothing to help the overall unemployment.

So why is cost of goods all of a sudden an issue? The left constantly whines about "living wages" but doesn't care about cost increases associated with that. Would the left please stop flip-flopping back on forth on their principles? Sheesh, you'd think they didn't have any or something...

[jkapp]

Jul 3, 2012 11:23:42 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jul 3, 2012 9:50:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

it will be interesting to see how those radically opposed to any sort of amnesty will respond to this.

edit: so far, no response whatsoever. how shocking.

Doesn't surprise me. It's darned difficult to argue with good common sense. I was aware of PBP's stance on this issue from other comments he's made. I'm in agreement.

That said, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how they're going to round up all these "illegals" and whisk them off to Mexico. It ain't that easy, fellas.

Neither is fixing our healthcare...but as the left seems to say: you have to start somewhere. Except when it comes to illegal immigration, apparently.

Start deportations and enforcing illegal immigration laws - include businesses and renters - and the tide will shift. Then its just mop-up work after that.

If we can find one crazy murderer that could be anywhere in the U.S., we can sure as shit find millions of illegal immigrants. it's not that hard, really. Many times they are right out in the open, basically flaunting their crimes.

Of course, the left seems to want to reward criminal behaviors...except if its the "evil rich" committing the crimes. Only then do they seem to care about the law...

[jkapp]

Jul 3, 2012 11:21:09 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 3, 2012 11:13:00 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Also, so many against immigration are ignoring the stuff they do that helps us all - like giving us cheap food. Sure you could pay an american twice as much to do the same work, but do you really think people want to pay twice as much for an apple or orange juice? What will happen is the amount of fruit & veggies that is imported will increase because american grown food will be too expensive.
------------------
You know perfectly well that if Obama waved a magic wand and got rid of every illegal, people would be howling about how much he hates America. He must, since he caused the price of food to go way up. Those with a visceral hatred of the man will whine no matter what he does.
They won't be happy until Romney is in office. You know...the guy who invented Obamacare. The guy who gazes in childlike wonder at how a sandwich is made.....

the guy paying 15% tax on $50M in income......just a regular soda pop and burger, blue jeans wearing kinda feller.

Right...and the guy feasting on kobe steaks and throwing $40k a plate dinners is totally in tune with the average american.

[mmhmm]

Jul 3, 2012 12:06:27 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

Jul 3, 2012 11:57:34 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Great to see you posting, cme!

Leg 1 and Leg 2 are certainly viable and are steps I've advocated in the past to begin getting some control over this issue. Leg 3, however, is another animal, as you point out. It's just not that easy, unfortunately. Both our Mexican border and our Canadian border are porous and have been porous. If we build a fence, they'll go over it, under it, or around it.

Who said fence? Not I, Drones, Orbital Satellites and allowing the INS, Border Patrol, Local Police actually enforce the laws of the land would be better use of time and money/manpower. Creating a few extra entry points (manned who watch the data from the the sources that we already have available)

I just used the fence as an example, cme. Stopping the influx just isn't that easy and it's going to be expensive. There's a lot of noise about the use of drones. There'll be trouble over that one. Orbital Satellites are the same. Who's to say they're only watching the border? A few extra entry points aren't going to stem the flow. The flow will simply move. The border patrol and local police are already strained trying to handle what they have and nobody wants to spend the money to hire more. It's a tough situation with no really comprehensive solution in sight, as I see it.

[jkapp]

Jul 3, 2012 13:05:11 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jul 3, 2012 12:06:27 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

Who said fence? Not I, Drones, Orbital Satellites and allowing the INS, Border Patrol, Local Police actually enforce the laws of the land would be better use of time and money/manpower. Creating a few extra entry points (manned who watch the data from the the sources that we already have available)

I just used the fence as an example, cme. Stopping the influx just isn't that easy and it's going to be expensive. There's a lot of noise about the use of drones. There'll be trouble over that one. Orbital Satellites are the same. Who's to say they're only watching the border? A few extra entry points aren't going to stem the flow. The flow will simply move. The border patrol and local police are already strained trying to handle what they have and nobody wants to spend the money to hire more. It's a tough situation with no really comprehensive solution in sight, as I see it.

Any action taken will cost...but we might as well take the action that might well lower the future costs of burdening school, welfare, and social programs. choosing to INCREASE the number of people draining resources from those programs will just hurt us in the long run. And unlike those who only gift lip-service to it, I not only prefer to make the future BETTER for future generations, but also better for legal citizens.

[cme1201]

Jul 3, 2012 13:05:11 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jul 3, 2012 12:06:27 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

Who said fence? Not I, Drones, Orbital Satellites and allowing the INS, Border Patrol, Local Police actually enforce the laws of the land would be better use of time and money/manpower. Creating a few extra entry points (manned who watch the data from the the sources that we already have available)

I just used the fence as an example, cme. Stopping the influx just isn't that easy and it's going to be expensive. There's a lot of noise about the use of drones. There'll be trouble over that one. Orbital Satellites are the same. Who's to say they're only watching the border? A few extra entry points aren't going to stem the flow. The flow will simply move. The border patrol and local police are already strained trying to handle what they have and nobody wants to spend the money to hire more. It's a tough situation with no really comprehensive solution in sight, as I see it.

If looked at logically, you take the cost savings from leg 1 and 2 and apply to 3. You do not really have an increase in costs once the system is set in place just a shifting of costs from support to enforcement.

[mmhmm]

Oh, I think you'd have a lot bigger difference in costs than might seem obvious, cme. No way I could prove it, but my gut instinct tells me it's so. Additionally, you're still not going to stop the flow. You might stem it a bit, for awhile; however, where there's a want there's a way, and those who want to get across that border will do so.

[Angel!]

Jul 3, 2012 12:57:53 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Jul 3, 2012 9:46:53 GMT -5 Angel! said:

HaHa!!

The threat of a nice comfy bus ride home won't really deter anyone from coming here. This will become another war on drugs costing massive amounts of money and accomplishing nothing. In fact you will increase your workload because you will probably start having deport the same people because they will just keep coming back.

Also, so many against immigration are ignoring the stuff they do that helps us all - like giving us cheap food. Sure you could pay an american twice as much to do the same work, but do you really think people want to pay twice as much for an apple or orange juice? What will happen is the amount of fruit & veggies that is imported will increase because american grown food will be too expensive.

You aren't going to be giving these jobs to americans, these jobs will just cease to exist. This will do nothing to help the overall unemployment.

So why is cost of goods all of a sudden an issue? The left constantly whines about "living wages" but doesn't care about cost increases associated with that. Would the left please stop flip-flopping back on forth on their principles? Sheesh, you'd think they didn't have any or something...

Well, not everyone on the left agrees on every principal. Personal I think living wages is pretty stupid & can't be done. Increasing wages just will increase inflation & then the wages will have to be further increase to keep up with inflation & on & on.

The market general sets wages pretty well & stabalizes itself. The problem comes in when you want to take a large pool of cheap labor & take it away. The market will go all over the place until it restabilizes with higher food prices & probably fewer farms (or smaller farms).

[Angel!]

Jul 3, 2012 12:13:40 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

Also, so many against immigration are ignoring the stuff they do that helps us all - like giving us cheap food. Sure you could pay an american twice as much to do the same work, but do you really think people want to pay twice as much for an apple or orange juice? What will happen is the amount of fruit & veggies that is imported will increase because american grown food will be too expensive.

I was under the impression that workers in the field made considerably more than minimum wage. If that is not the case, then feel free to ignore the rest of my post.

They generally do make more than minimum wage, but because most places pay for the amount of work you put in, not the time you put in. A friend grew up on an apple orchard - the mexicans could walk away with $100-$200/day. But that is because they worked sunrise to sunset & worked fast. He said most americans that would come to help pick apples would walk away with about $50/day because they weren't willing to put in the hours and generally couldn't work nearly as fast.

Ex works with a bunch of H2As (mexicans on a visa). They make a little over $10/hr. But they can't get enough americans to do the work because it is a sucky job with really long hours. During the busy season the mexicans are generally working 14 hours/day & 7 days/wk. Most americans that work there don't last very long, so they stick with hiring the mexicans for their busy season.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 3, 2012 13:04:14 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Jul 3, 2012 11:21:09 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

the guy paying 15% tax on $50M in income......just a regular soda pop and burger, blue jeans wearing kinda feller.

Right...and the guy feasting on kobe steaks and throwing $40k a plate dinners is totally in tune with the average american.

'course not. however, Obama at least had humble beginnings. is that a guarantee that he can relate? NO. but it certainly improves the chances.

[Deleted]

Dezi, every country in the world has the same problem with illegal aliens, you should see/ hear/read about what's going on in England. The council flats, the TYPES of council houses, mansions given to some people with loads of kids, and 30,000 quid a year to live on. It is horrendous..........but what can we do. Don't let it raise your blood pressure. Just do well yourself, and LET. IT. GO. :-)

What else can you do. Have a beer.

[Value Buy]

Saw on the news tonight, that the illegal immigration run is alive and well today.
Now we have an influx of illegals who are under 16 years of age, some as young as 10, who come over the border without adults, as far away as from Central America.
About eight thousand last year alone. Since they come here alone, they become wards of the Government.
Who picks up the tab for housing and caring for them when they catch them?.
The Feds. According to the report it is straining the resources of several Government agencies housing them.
Get this, they are having trouble finding enough Legal Aid Attorneys to represent them in our Court system.
Also looking for relatives already here who might take them in.

I have a better idea. Bus them to the nearest foreign Embassy representing their country of origin, turn them over and let that country send them back. If that Embassy fails to do so, cut off all foreign aid to that country immediately.

[sesfw]

[sesfw]

"I have a better idea. Bus them to the nearest foreign Embassy representing their country of origin, turn them over and let that country send them back. If that Embassy fails to do so, cut off all foreign aid to that country immediately."


Sounds good to me.

[Don Perignon]

I see people edging closer and closer to endorsing forced-Labor Camps and Final Solutions...

[Value Buy]

Jul 3, 2012 23:20:02 GMT -5 Don Perignon said:

I see people edging closer and closer to endorsing forced-Labor Camps and Final Solutions...

I thought that was already in effect in the lettuce fields and grape vineyards of California, and the sweat shops in Los Angeles.

[Value Buy]

"Final solutions"

More like a decision to do something about illegal immigration, send them back

[Don Perignon]

Conservative Tories didn't rebel against the Crown and King George...
it was the Liberals who led the colonies to Independence.

[weltschmerz]

Jul 3, 2012 13:51:04 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 3, 2012 13:04:14 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Right...and the guy feasting on kobe steaks and throwing $40k a plate dinners is totally in tune with the average american.

'course not. however, Obama at least had humble beginnings. is that a guarantee that he can relate? NO. but it certainly improves the chances.

The Romneys can certainly relate. Not enough money for university? Why, just sell off some of your stock options! What's the big deal?

[weltschmerz]

The Obamas enjoy gardening and a game of pickup basketball. The Romneys enjoy wearing magic underpants, firing people and teaching horses how to dance ballet, just like any average Joe.

[Don Perignon]

Now, if they could teach Mr. Ed to do the Macarena, THAT would be interesting.

[sesfw]

'The Romneys enjoy wearing magic underpants, firing people and teaching horses how to dance ballet, just like any average Joe.'

Your point being??? He is using his funds, not tax payers funds. And I don't think Romney would take Air Force 1 to Paris to buy the kids school clothes. As far as undies are concerned, have you looked lately?

[weltschmerz]

Your point being???
------------------
The point is glaringly apparent. I'm sorry you missed it.

[sesfw]

Yep, I missed it. Please explain.

[formerroomate99]

Jul 3, 2012 23:20:02 GMT -5 Don Perignon said:

I see people edging closer and closer to endorsing forced-Labor Camps and Final Solutions...

Are you a 13 year old girl? Seriously, you need to cut down on the melodrama.