I am in the same place all the liberals were

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jul 2, 2012 22:22:38 GMT -5 Don Perignon said:

another branch came with the Norsemen a couple hundred years before Mayflower.

That's quite a claim... quite remarkable, but not particularly plausible.

Oh, well... at least you haven't tried to claim to be descended from one of the "Lost Tribes of Israel" that cult-leader Joseph Smith claimed to have colonized what is now North America...

True, but there's always the possibility of being 1/32nd Cherokee.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

We should quit the failed war on drugs. And I agree we need to do a better job on immigration, but part of that has to include liberalizing our immigration policy to acknowledge demand or it'll just be another war on drugs. Guest worker program, and a path to citizenship for those that will assimilate are a must. We needn't fear the right kinds of immigrants, we should embrace them.

[Deleted]

Find a humane way to deal with our current problem while also finding a way to deter future illegal immigration.

So how do we do that without a kick in the teeth so to speak to all the immigrants that have waited and done the right thing by pursuing legal means to become a US citizen?

[deziloooooo]

Jul 3, 2012 6:48:31 GMT -5 @xmascookie said:

Find a humane way to deal with our current problem while also finding a way to deter future illegal immigration.

So how do we do that without a kick in the teeth so to speak to all the immigrants that have waited and done the right thing by pursuing legal means to become a US citizen?

Suggest that they will get over it....

[Value Buy]

Quote:Find a humane way to deal with our current problem while also finding a way to deter future illegal immigration.
...........................................................................................................................................

Airconditioned busses with plenty of restroom stops, at enclosed military bases with meals at properly guarded military commisaries, or PX's on the way to the Mexican border, would be more than humane.
We have plenty of military bases in the south and Texas to accomplish this humanely.
It might even be the "deter" to lesson the flow from the southern countries.

[Deleted]

Jul 3, 2012 7:39:34 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Jul 3, 2012 6:48:31 GMT -5 @xmascookie said:

So how do we do that without a kick in the teeth so to speak to all the immigrants that have waited and done the right thing by pursuing legal means to become a US citizen?

Suggest that they will get over it....

Really? that's a pretty flip response Dezi.

[Value Buy]

The thread has drifted a little off topic.
Illegal immigration is just one of many abuses by the President.
I am much more concerned about the casual abuse of power by the President.
Ignoring the Constitution, is simply Unconscionable.

[jkapp]

We can get all the Indian's and Chinese we need for various professional jobs but we can't get enough Mexican's to build our homes and clean our offices . The government F'd up and now they're blaming that segment of the population for the unemployment woes of a woefully undereducated portion of the population that have little skills.

You just affirmed that these illegals are the cause of the unemployment. Woefully undereducated illegal immigrants that have little skills are taking the jobs of legal citizens with that are woefully unereducated and have little skills.

[deziloooooo]

Jul 3, 2012 7:48:30 GMT -5 @xmascookie said:

Jul 3, 2012 7:39:34 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Suggest that they will get over it....

Really? that's a pretty flip response Dezi.

If you really want to get into it then lets...

If I was a new citizen who as you suggested did "all the right things " to qualify for and obtain my...I would just be so happy that all that work payed off..as far as some one who got that way in a different manner..till they did they would have been under a constant cloud and tons of worry that they would be found out..picked up and sent back home with little time to say good bye make arangements , tough way to live...not the way I would have wanted to do it but if they were satisfied to do it that way..so be it..and I would have moved on.

As far as they now gaining the same rights as I have, well more power to them thats their business..I am now a citizen and I have more important things to worry about such as advancing myself and my family to get a piece of theis American dream..

Just like some of the posters here, by their posting one gets the impression their waking moments [ Possible their sleeping moments too in a dream setting] are dedicated to how bad the country has turned..how the current leader is falling down on his responsibilities , how the whole thing is going to the dogs.."Oh woe is me , oh woe is us..save us oh lord please save us.." etc. etc..

and the truth is I NEVER give any of those things a thought , ever..beyond knowing what the news is saying for the moment..possible a fleeting concern , worry or just a thought and a agreement of but then quickly move on to things under my control...

So my flip response...a reason for it as you can see, IMHO of course.

[jkapp]

Jul 3, 2012 8:17:14 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Jul 3, 2012 7:48:30 GMT -5 @xmascookie said:

Really? that's a pretty flip response Dezi.

If you really want to get into it then lets...

If I was a new citizen who as you suggested did "all the right things " to qualify for and obtain my...I would just be so happy that all that work payed off..as far as some one who got that way in a different manner..till they did they would have been under a constant cloud and tons of worry that they would be found out..picked up and sent back home with little time to say good bye make arangements , tough way to live...not the way I would have wanted to do it but if they were satisfied to do it that way..so be it..and I would have moved on.

As far as they now gaining the same rights as I have, well more power to them thats their business..I am now a citizen and I have more important things to worry about such as advancing myself and my family to get a piece of theis American dream..

Just like some of the posters here, by their posting one gets the impression their waking moments [ Possible their sleeping moments too in a dream setting] are dedicated to how bad the country has turned..how the current leader is falling down on his responsibilities , how the whole thing is going to the dogs.."Oh woe is me , oh woe is us..save us oh lord please save us.." etc. etc..

and the truth is I NEVER give any of those things a thought , ever..beyond knowing what the news is saying for the moment..possible a fleeting concern , worry or just a thought and a agreement of but then quickly move on to things under my control...

So my flip response...a reason for it as you can see, IMHO of course.

So, hopefully you are not one of those "living wage" proponents. They should just be happy with the wage they receive, after all, its the one they've earned...

[deziloooooo]

Jul 3, 2012 7:50:28 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

The thread has drifted a little off topic.
Illegal immigration is just one of many abuses by the President.
I am much more concerned about the casual abuse of power by the President.
Ignoring the Constitution, is simply Unconscionable.

All this talk of violating the constitution is so much malarkey..it's ludicrous yet is what the non knowledgeable always bring up.

If it was happening as you all suggest, trust me, there are enough well heeled groups and individuals who could be considered for a better word, enemies of the current POTUS and his party and they would be in court in a split second doing what they could to bring him down, yet if you look around..they really are not there..and the few times it might have been brought there..courts..it went NOWHERE.

I claim that most of the comments such as "Ignoring the Constitution, is simply Unconscionable" are brought by those who just love using words such as "Unconscionable" but really haven't a clue as to what is unconstituional and what isn't...

[deziloooooo]

Jul 3, 2012 8:25:07 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Jul 3, 2012 8:17:14 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

If you really want to get into it then lets...

If I was a new citizen who as you suggested did "all the right things " to qualify for and obtain my...I would just be so happy that all that work payed off..as far as some one who got that way in a different manner..till they did they would have been under a constant cloud and tons of worry that they would be found out..picked up and sent back home with little time to say good bye make arangements , tough way to live...not the way I would have wanted to do it but if they were satisfied to do it that way..so be it..and I would have moved on.

As far as they now gaining the same rights as I have, well more power to them thats their business..I am now a citizen and I have more important things to worry about such as advancing myself and my family to get a piece of theis American dream..

Just like some of the posters here, by their posting one gets the impression their waking moments [ Possible their sleeping moments too in a dream setting] are dedicated to how bad the country has turned..how the current leader is falling down on his responsibilities , how the whole thing is going to the dogs.."Oh woe is me , oh woe is us..save us oh lord please save us.." etc. etc..

and the truth is I NEVER give any of those things a thought , ever..beyond knowing what the news is saying for the moment..possible a fleeting concern , worry or just a thought and a agreement of but then quickly move on to things under my control...

So my flip response...a reason for it as you can see, IMHO of course.

So, hopefully you are not one of those "living wage" proponents. They should just be happy with the wage they receive, after all, its the one they've earned...

You brought up a point...I disagreed and told you WHY..what else do you want now?... I guess I am missing where living wages enters into this question you brought up..

I'm am not asking you to agree with me, could care less..just answered your question, by my feelings..take my reasoning and throw it out the window or possible consider it..it's nothing to me as to how you want to take it.

[Deleted]

If I was a new citizen who as you suggested did "all the right things " to qualify for and obtain my...I would just be so happy that all that work payed off

But what if it didn't pay off?
What if you were made to wait longer, much longer, for doing the right thing because those that are here illegally( wrong thing) were made legal citizens ahead of you?
That is the rub for me. I do believe when you are rewarded for bad behavior you get more of it. Same for rewarding good behavior, more of it.
I'm not sure how to reconcile those things but "get over it" doesn't quite do it for me.

Sorry VB for participating in the derailment of your thread. I will quit now.

[Tennesseer]

Jul 3, 2012 6:48:31 GMT -5 @xmascookie said:

Find a humane way to deal with our current problem while also finding a way to deter future illegal immigration.

So how do we do that without a kick in the teeth so to speak to all the immigrants that have waited and done the right thing by pursuing legal means to become a US citizen?

Well I don't know how we wil do it xmasscookie-that's why I wrote "Find a humane way..." I am but one person and this issue is bigger than all of us.

I will say though if there are any unintended deaths, especially of young children, during any forced repatriations, the tide of public opinion will turn against such actions. I do expect a few here (and out in the real world) will say "too bad...so sad...oh well" about any deaths but the majority of us will not tolerate physical harm to others or the separation of families.

The solution may be far costlier than the actual problem.

[Angel!]

Jul 3, 2012 7:44:01 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Quote:Find a humane way to deal with our current problem while also finding a way to deter future illegal immigration.
...........................................................................................................................................

Airconditioned busses with plenty of restroom stops, at enclosed military bases with meals at properly guarded military commisaries, or PX's on the way to the Mexican border, would be more than humane.
We have plenty of military bases in the south and Texas to accomplish this humanely.
It might even be the "deter" to lesson the flow from the southern countries.

HaHa!!

The threat of a nice comfy bus ride home won't really deter anyone from coming here. This will become another war on drugs costing massive amounts of money and accomplishing nothing. In fact you will increase your workload because you will probably start having deport the same people because they will just keep coming back.

Also, so many against immigration are ignoring the stuff they do that helps us all - like giving us cheap food. Sure you could pay an american twice as much to do the same work, but do you really think people want to pay twice as much for an apple or orange juice? What will happen is the amount of fruit & veggies that is imported will increase because american grown food will be too expensive.

You aren't going to be giving these jobs to americans, these jobs will just cease to exist. This will do nothing to help the overall unemployment.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 3, 2012 5:56:11 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

We should quit the failed war on drugs. And I agree we need to do a better job on immigration, but part of that has to include liberalizing our immigration policy to acknowledge demand or it'll just be another war on drugs. Guest worker program, and a path to citizenship for those that will assimilate are a must. We needn't fear the right kinds of immigrants, we should embrace them.

it will be interesting to see how those radically opposed to any sort of amnesty will respond to this.

edit: so far, no response whatsoever. how shocking.

[mmhmm]

Jul 3, 2012 8:05:51 GMT -5 jkapp said:

We can get all the Indian's and Chinese we need for various professional jobs but we can't get enough Mexican's to build our homes and clean our offices . The government F'd up and now they're blaming that segment of the population for the unemployment woes of a woefully undereducated portion of the population that have little skills.

You just affirmed that these illegals are the cause of the unemployment. Woefully undereducated illegal immigrants that have little skills are taking the jobs of legal citizens with that are woefully unereducated and have little skills.

That's all well and good if you actually believe the only people in this country (citizens, or otherwise) who are out of work are those who are woefully undereducated and have few skills. Unfortunately, that's not the case. Additionally, it's not the government who's doing the blaming here. It's individuals looking for a reason to denigrate a leadership they don't like. That's par for the course, I'm afraid. It doesn't do a darned bit of good, but it's become the "thing to do", I guess.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 3, 2012 10:02:29 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jul 3, 2012 8:05:51 GMT -5 jkapp said:

You just affirmed that these illegals are the cause of the unemployment. Woefully undereducated illegal immigrants that have little skills are taking the jobs of legal citizens with that are woefully unereducated and have little skills.

That's all well and good if you actually believe the only people in this country (citizens, or otherwise) who are out of work are those who are woefully undereducated and have few skills. Unfortunately, that's not the case. Additionally, it's not the government who's doing the blaming here. It's individuals looking for a reason to denigrate a leadership they don't like. That's par for the course, I'm afraid. It doesn't do a darned bit of good, but it's become the "thing to do", I guess.

still waiting for the GOP lead congress to create some jobs.............

[sesfw]

'Oh, well... at least you haven't tried to claim to be descended from one of the "Lost Tribes of Israel" that cult-leader Joseph Smith claimed to have colonized what is now North America... '

This is one of the funniest comments made to me on these boards. As it turns out, I have a very strong LDS ancestory on my father's side. Mother was Religious Science and beleive me the two religions clashed.

I now consider myself main-line Christian. As the words of Jesus: Matt 22:21 .... This tells me to obey the laws of the land.

[Angel!]

Jul 3, 2012 9:50:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 3, 2012 5:56:11 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

We should quit the failed war on drugs. And I agree we need to do a better job on immigration, but part of that has to include liberalizing our immigration policy to acknowledge demand or it'll just be another war on drugs. Guest worker program, and a path to citizenship for those that will assimilate are a must. We needn't fear the right kinds of immigrants, we should embrace them.

it will be interesting to see how those radically opposed to any sort of amnesty will respond to this.

edit: so far, no response whatsoever. how shocking.

I was kind of shocked because it wasn't a statement I expected from PBP, but I agree with him. This idea that we are going to somehow deport millions of people & keep them out is ridiculous. The cost involved will be enormous and you will still be fighting an influx, plus the economy right now runs on part with the cheap labor so there will be repercussions to removing a large chunk of cheap labor from the market.

We need an actual immigration policy & a path to citizenship. I know we have the H2A visa program because ex works with about 50 guys from mexico here on the program, but perhaps that needs to be expanded somehow (I don't really understand the details of the program).

[djAdvocate]

Jul 3, 2012 10:29:25 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Jul 3, 2012 9:50:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

it will be interesting to see how those radically opposed to any sort of amnesty will respond to this.

edit: so far, no response whatsoever. how shocking.

I was kind of shocked because it wasn't a statement I expected from PBP, but I agree with him.

oh, don't i know it.

[weltschmerz]

Also, so many against immigration are ignoring the stuff they do that helps us all - like giving us cheap food. Sure you could pay an american twice as much to do the same work, but do you really think people want to pay twice as much for an apple or orange juice? What will happen is the amount of fruit & veggies that is imported will increase because american grown food will be too expensive.
------------------
You know perfectly well that if Obama waved a magic wand and got rid of every illegal, people would be howling about how much he hates America. He must, since he caused the price of food to go way up. Those with a visceral hatred of the man will whine no matter what he does.
They won't be happy until Romney is in office. You know...the guy who invented Obamacare. The guy who gazes in childlike wonder at how a sandwich is made. Just a regular American, dontcha know? Yeah, he'll be MUCH better....

[djAdvocate]

Jul 3, 2012 11:13:00 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Also, so many against immigration are ignoring the stuff they do that helps us all - like giving us cheap food. Sure you could pay an american twice as much to do the same work, but do you really think people want to pay twice as much for an apple or orange juice? What will happen is the amount of fruit & veggies that is imported will increase because american grown food will be too expensive.
------------------
You know perfectly well that if Obama waved a magic wand and got rid of every illegal, people would be howling about how much he hates America. He must, since he caused the price of food to go way up. Those with a visceral hatred of the man will whine no matter what he does.
They won't be happy until Romney is in office. You know...the guy who invented Obamacare. The guy who gazes in childlike wonder at how a sandwich is made.....

the guy paying 15% tax on $50M in income......just a regular soda pop and burger, blue jeans wearing kinda feller.

[chiver78]

Jul 3, 2012 11:13:00 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Also, so many against immigration are ignoring the stuff they do that helps us all - like giving us cheap food. Sure you could pay an american twice as much to do the same work, but do you really think people want to pay twice as much for an apple or orange juice? What will happen is the amount of fruit & veggies that is imported will increase because american grown food will be too expensive.
------------------
You know perfectly well that if Obama waved a magic wand and got rid of every illegal, people would be howling about how much he hates America. He must, since he caused the price of food to go way up. Those with a visceral hatred of the man will whine no matter what he does.
They won't be happy until Romney is in office. You know...the guy who invented Obamacare. The guy who gazes in childlike wonder at how a sandwich is made. Just a regular American, dontcha know? Yeah, he'll be MUCH better....

I better be careful which threads I read at work. I laughed so hard at this that people are going to know I'm farting around on the 'net. lol....

[mmhmm]

Jul 3, 2012 9:50:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 3, 2012 5:56:11 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

We should quit the failed war on drugs. And I agree we need to do a better job on immigration, but part of that has to include liberalizing our immigration policy to acknowledge demand or it'll just be another war on drugs. Guest worker program, and a path to citizenship for those that will assimilate are a must. We needn't fear the right kinds of immigrants, we should embrace them.

it will be interesting to see how those radically opposed to any sort of amnesty will respond to this.

edit: so far, no response whatsoever. how shocking.

Doesn't surprise me. It's darned difficult to argue with good common sense. I was aware of PBP's stance on this issue from other comments he's made. I'm in agreement.

That said, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how they're going to round up all these "illegals" and whisk them off to Mexico. It ain't that easy, fellas.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 3, 2012 11:23:42 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jul 3, 2012 9:50:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

it will be interesting to see how those radically opposed to any sort of amnesty will respond to this.

edit: so far, no response whatsoever. how shocking.

Doesn't surprise me. It's darned difficult to argue with good common sense. I was aware of PBP's stance on this issue from other comments he's made. I'm in agreement.

my point was that if craftysarah or Tenn had said it, they would have (5) posters up their backside in the space of half an hour.

amazing.

[cme1201]

That said, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how they're going to round up all these "illegals" and whisk them off to Mexico. It ain't that easy, fellas.

Three legged stool. (not necessarily rounding everyone up some will self deport others will need to be caught)

Leg One - Sharply escalating fine for businesses that hire "undocumented immigrants" (be cause illegal has become so unPC). Start the fine high around 10k per worker escalating at 50% each incident per worker, will require a national e-verify system ***Most of the government contracts that we do require that we certify that we will use the e-verify system so it is already in place***

Leg Two - No Benefits for those who are not citizens. Birth certificates and proper ID should be used by social service to truly verify who is receiving government benefits could be used in conjunction with the national database.

Leg Three - (in effect not strong enough but, growing) Find them at the border before they are able to get on land.

Remove the incentives plain and simple for illegal immigration and they will not want to come as the watershed it has been since Reagan's amnesty in 1986 (a four fold increase in 26 years).

a few ideas to kick around.

[zibazinski]

[mmhmm]

Jul 3, 2012 11:40:47 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

That said, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how they're going to round up all these "illegals" and whisk them off to Mexico. It ain't that easy, fellas.

Three legged stool. (not necessarily rounding everyone up some will self deport others will need to be caught)

Leg One - Sharply escalating fine for businesses that hire "undocumented immigrants" (be cause illegal has become so unPC). Start the fine high around 10k per worker escalating at 50% each incident per worker, will require a national e-verify system ***Most of the government contracts that we do require that we certify that we will use the e-verify system so it is already in place***

Leg Two - No Benefits for those who are not citizens. Birth certificates and proper ID should be used by social service to truly verify who is receiving government benefits could be used in conjunction with the national database.

Leg Three - (in effect not strong enough but, growing) Find them at the border before they are able to get on land.

Remove the incentives plain and simple for illegal immigration and they will not want to come as the watershed it has been since Reagan's amnesty in 1986 (a four fold increase in 26 years).

a few ideas to kick around.

Great to see you posting, cme!

Leg 1 and Leg 2 are certainly viable and are steps I've advocated in the past to begin getting some control over this issue. Leg 3, however, is another animal, as you point out. It's just not that easy, unfortunately. Both our Mexican border and our Canadian border are porous and have been porous. If we build a fence, they'll go over it, under it, or around it.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 3, 2012 11:40:47 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

That said, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how they're going to round up all these "illegals" and whisk them off to Mexico. It ain't that easy, fellas.

Three legged stool. (not necessarily rounding everyone up some will self deport others will need to be caught)

Leg One - Sharply escalating fine for businesses that hire "undocumented immigrants" (be cause illegal has become so unPC). Start the fine high around 10k per worker escalating at 50% each incident per worker, will require a national e-verify system ***Most of the government contracts that we do require that we certify that we will use the e-verify system so it is already in place***

Leg Two - No Benefits for those who are not citizens. Birth certificates and proper ID should be used by social service to truly verify who is receiving government benefits could be used in conjunction with the national database.

Leg Three - (in effect not strong enough but, growing) Find them at the border before they are able to get on land.

Remove the incentives plain and simple for illegal immigration and they will not want to come as the watershed it has been since Reagan's amnesty in 1986 (a four fold increase in 26 years).

a few ideas to kick around.

it would actually be really easy to do a lot of this electronically.

for example, an I9 form is required for employment. PERIOD. that is a federal law, and it has stiff fines associated with it. but as far as i know, it is SELECTIVELY enforced. if there were a national requirement that I9 forms be submitted for all employees for federal cross checking, it could all be done electronically. it would cost NO money to do it (it is already in place, for anyone who WANTS to check, but checking IS NOT REQUIRED), and it would send out red flags to anyone who had conflicting details.

stuff like that is so simple that it tells me there is no political will to solve this problem. i will leave it to everyone here to discern why.