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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2012 6:44:27 GMT -5
Well, kudos to anyone who could find someone who "thinks the same as they do" because i have yet to meet anyone who thinks exactly like i do!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2012 6:45:31 GMT -5
Cuz it's not possible to have any kind of moral system or code if you're not religious. That argument REALLY annoys me, no matter how "respectfully" it's expressed. Well, you DO have a moral code. You do believe that some things are wrong and some things are right. I am sure you believe child abuse is wrong or murder or stealing candy from the store and a number of other things. That is a moral code, value system or whatever you want to call it. I agree, Shooby, and even as a semi-religious person I bristle at the implication that the only reason to do good acts is out of fear of a later punishment. I believe that you do good things because that's just what you do. It makes life more bearable for you and others around you. On the same token, you shouldn't be a selfish asshole (at least not most of the time ) because it hurts those around you and will eventually hurt you too.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 3, 2012 7:51:30 GMT -5
DF and I bounce stuff off of each other. Mostly because we are pushovers when it comes to our kids and we need each other to stay strong. I told him how vehemently I was opposed to him leaving his bio daughter more than his step kids. That since he raised the step kids and called them his kids and their kids his grand kids, that it was just wrong. He agreed. Mostly because his bio daughter turned out to be a bitch like her mother probably but whatever the reason, it was the right thing to do. I got him to get with his EX and draw up trusts that say no new spouse can get any of the money after he and the EX die so that no new husband of mine or husband of her can get a dime of DFs money. Which is the right thing to do. He has helped me establish boundaries better with my daughter. It works for us. I let him have his way with this house. To me, the walls and flooring are double ugly but he likes them. So be it. Our Florida home will reflect me and my tastes. It's an okay compromise. It also meant more to him than it did to me. Maybe that's it, if it means more to one person than the other, you just give way because it isn't that big of a deal. I think that's maturity really. Young people tend to fight over everything because if they think they give in, they aren't man or woman enough to stand their ground. As an older person, I really don't have as many hills to die on so I pick my battles carefully.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2012 9:04:55 GMT -5
I'm curious. Are there any expectations of men (particularly married men and/or men with families), just because they're men? Not that women can't do whatever these things are. Men and women I know in real life feel like there are just some things men should do. It seems that posters here feel differently and I'm trying to understand it. I am a very strong, independent woman...I earn my own money, I control my own investments and I will not give in to my husband if he is wrong just because he is the "man". But...I don't kill bugs, fix things, take out the garbage or mow the lawn (well, he hasn't done that either in about 10 years!lol). I COULD do those things (except fix things....I am not handy) but I really believe those are a man's job. When we were young and poor and couldn't afford to hire out, I offered to cut the grass since he was workign longer hours than me...he didn't want the neighbors to see his wife cutting the grass!lol I do about 95% of the cooking and we split the rest. Thanks for answering honestly Miss Tequila. I do all the things you mentioned, because I'm single. Well, I don't fix things, I'm not handy either. lol If I got married tomorrow, I'd continue to work and handle my own money. The other things...... meh, he can have 'em. I'll cook if I have to, but I loooove men that cook. Anyway, I'm not sure how men having a role got twisted here to men that take on that role also mistreat, abuse and/or boss their wives around. I don't find that kind of behavior acceptable regardless of any "reason" and imo any man that treats his wife that way doesn't deserve to be respected.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 3, 2012 9:20:14 GMT -5
I think sometimes the misunderstanding and twisting is intentional, Pink. I've seen it happen all too often. It's just one more way for non-believers to tell me how wrong my faith is. "Your faith allows men to dominate women." That isn't it at all, but one can explain till they are blue in the face and it isn't going to make any difference. What does matter is in our hearts and how we live our lives regardless of how others feel about it.
Men? I think a gentleman is extremely sexy. Do you find being a gentleman is passe, a responsibility or something that comes natural? Do you sometimes feel unsure of how to act because this society today is trying its best to make us all genderless? If I was a man, I'd be all confused. "Do I open the door for her or am I going to get yelled at if I do?"
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 3, 2012 9:21:01 GMT -5
I think the problem is that often - though certainly not always - the type of man who adopts the paternalistic view of relationships is attracted to this philosophy because of his own control issues. That is, the "man as head of household" philosophy gives him an excuse to wield control in what would have otherwise been an egalitarian relationship. This is not to say that every man in that type of relationship is a control freak, or that every woman in that type of relationship is submissive - but the roles do lend themselves well to those personalities, at least in my experience.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2012 9:27:15 GMT -5
Thanks for answering honestly Miss Tequila. I do all the things you mentioned, because I'm single. Well, I don't fix things, I'm not handy either. lol If I got married tomorrow, I'd continue to work and handle my own money. The other things...... meh, he can have 'em. I'll cook if I have to, but I loooove men that cook. Anyway, I'm not sure how men having a role got twisted here to men that take on that role also mistreat, abuse and/or boss their wives around. I don't find that kind of behavior acceptable regardless of any "reason" and imo any man that treats his wife that way doesn't deserve to be respected. I grew up in a family full of girls and my Dad did a bunch of "guy things" alone. It never occurred to him that one of us girls might want to tinker on the car with him, or use the weed whacker while he mowed or even play catch in the backyard. I don't want my kids to think that there are gender specific jobs around the house, so I have done them all at one point or another. Maybe not every week; but they see me mow, and trim the hedges and put together a bookshelf, etc. And they have seen Dad vacuum, do laundry and do the dishes.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2012 9:32:11 GMT -5
I think sometimes the misunderstanding and twisting is intentional, Pink. I've seen it happen all too often. It's just one more way for non-believers to tell me how wrong my faith is. "Your faith allows men to dominate women." That isn't it at all, but one can explain till they are blue in the face and it isn't going to make any difference. What does matter is in our hearts and how we live our lives regardless of how others feel about it. Men? I think a gentleman is extremely sexy. Do you find being a gentleman is passe, a responsibility or something that comes natural? Do you sometimes feel unsure of how to act because this society today is trying their best to make us all genderless? If I was a man, I'd be all confused. "Do I open the door for her or am I going to get yelled at if I do?" I love a gentleman too. I mean, sure - I can open my own door and all, but it's nice. And I agree about going overboard making stuff genderless. I get that a woman can be a soldier and a man can be a nurse, but we are PHYSICALLY different. There are some stuff men can do better than women and vice versa. And if we're all trying to be gender neutral for everything, then why do we bother dating the opposite sex? You know, if we're all the same...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2012 9:34:44 GMT -5
I think sometimes the misunderstanding and twisting is intentional, Pink. I've seen it happen all too often. It's just one more way for non-believers to tell me how wrong my faith is. "Your faith allows men to dominate women." That isn't it at all, but one can explain till they are blue in the face and it isn't going to make any difference. What does matter is in our hearts and how we live our lives regardless of how others feel about it. Same for us non-believers.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 3, 2012 9:37:16 GMT -5
I think sometimes the misunderstanding and twisting is intentional, Pink. I've seen it happen all too often. It's just one more way for non-believers to tell me how wrong my faith is. "Your faith allows men to dominate women." That isn't it at all, but one can explain till they are blue in the face and it isn't going to make any difference. What does matter is in our hearts and how we live our lives regardless of how others feel about it. Same for us non-believers. if a person's got a chip on their shoulder for their beliefs, whatever they may be, they are going to see twisting and spinning of their words everywhere.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 3, 2012 9:38:23 GMT -5
I suppose it was the fight for equality - which was and is a good thing. While I should make the same money as a man doing my job, I'm not a man. I don't want to be a man. I like being a woman. I like having doors opened for me (and yes...I can do it myself). I like the traditional woman things like cooking and cleaning. And I don't want anybody telling me that is wrong. In fact, they are in for one helluva fight if they do. The traditional life style may not suit everyone and that's ok. But it suits me. I like being a girl.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2012 9:39:34 GMT -5
I tried to think of real life examples that I'm aware of where the woman deferred to her husband. Every one that I came up with, I think YM would agree with regardless of the genders.
Such as, the wife that developed a gambling problem after she and her husband retired. Eventually the husband *took* her credit cards (she was getting cash advances at the casinos) and put her on an allowance. The wife whose irresponsible son asked her to risk $7,500 to get him out of a jam. She told him she'd have to talk to his Dad and see what he says. Dad said no (actually I think it was "Hell no!"), and that was it. The wife that transferred within her company to follow her husband who had to relocate for his job. They relocated again and her company didn't have a position for her that time, but she went with her husband anyway.
Even though all these couples have traditional marriages, the examples I came up with would likely have had the same outcome in most marriages anyway.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 3, 2012 9:39:37 GMT -5
I absolutely agree and I would never preach to you or twist what you do believe in to suit my own purposes. You have a heart and you know your heart.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2012 9:41:31 GMT -5
And if we're all trying to be gender neutral for everything, then why do we bother dating the opposite sex? You know, if we're all the same...I meant to ask that exact question last night, but I forgot it when I was posting.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2012 9:41:47 GMT -5
I suppose it was the fight for equality - which was and is a good thing. While I should make the same money as a man doing my job, I'm not a man. I don't want to be a man. I like being a woman. I like having doors opened for me (and yes...I can do it myself). I like the traditional woman things like cooking and cleaning. And I don't want anybody telling me that is wrong. In fact, they are in for one helluva fight if they do. The traditional life style may not suit everyone and that's ok. But it suits me. I like being a girl. maybe I'm wrong, but I think most women are okay with doing the "woman" stuff but they at least want to know that they can do the "man" stuff too and that it's okay. I know I can kill bugs, fix stuff, put furniture together - I've done it! But I don't want to do it all all the time. That's what DH is for.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 3, 2012 9:44:25 GMT -5
Of course, MJ. I HAVE to do the other stuff because I live alone. I know I can do it. It's just not the role I prefer is all!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2012 9:47:45 GMT -5
if a person's got a chip on their shoulder for their beliefs, whatever they may be, they are going to see twisting and spinning of their words everywhere.
I don't have a chip on my shoulder about my beliefs. It's just a bit disappointing to see that the belief that men have certain responsibilities to their family gets translated to approval for men to abuse, mistreat and disrespect their wives when I've never said anything remotely like that.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 3, 2012 9:51:05 GMT -5
Nor do I, Pink. I'm good with who I am and what I hold dear. Because you defend what you believe in does not mean you have a chip on your shoulder. In fact, I find usually the opposite shoulder is the one with the chip.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 3, 2012 9:54:11 GMT -5
I really would like to hear from the men on this "role" issue and how they feel about it. I'm wondering if they are confused or relieved. Men sure used to be responsible for shouldering a whole lot of the responsibility. Perhaps they feel a bit liberated themselves!
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 3, 2012 9:55:14 GMT -5
Nor do I, Pink. I'm good with who I am and what I hold dear. Because you defend what you believe in does not mean you have a chip on your shoulder. In fact, I find usually the opposite shoulder has the chip. no chip here. what I read in posts yesterday was some people (like myself) see no reason to respect those who hide behind whatever good book they follow as reason to mistreat their mates. it has nothing to do with saying one good book is any better, worse, or comparable to another or to a disinterest in general. if you're reading something else, then I think it's coming from within. not looking to debate this point, just making an observation. as far as relationships go, you find what works for you. there's a reason that some couples don't last - they weren't the right match.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 3, 2012 9:59:40 GMT -5
I'm curious. Are there any expectations of men (particularly married men and/or men with families), just because they're men? Not that women can't do whatever these things are. Men and women I know in real life feel like there are just some things men should do. It seems that posters here feel differently and I'm trying to understand it.
I wouldn't say so, no. There are certain things that I tend to think of as DH's "job" but a) those things are usually things he WANTS to take the lead on, and I don't, and b) we switch off occasionally, so it's not a static thing.
I can't think of one thing I consider DH's job just because he's the man. I mean, I do things that I've seen referred to as the "guy's job" - kill spiders, handle money, etc. - and he does things that some people think are "women's work," like 98% of the cooking. Gender just doesn't play into it.
Well, you DO have a moral code. You do believe that some things are wrong and some things are right. I am sure you believe child abuse is wrong or murder or stealing candy from the store and a number of other things. That is a moral code, value system or whatever you want to call it.
I was being sarcastic, shooby. This is why it annoys me when religious people say things like they "don't know why atheists do anything," as if religion was the only thing keeping human character in check. I am actually a much more moral and principled person now than I was when I was a Christian, not least because I've now actually taken the time to think through my values for myself and the ones remaining are the ones I truly believe in, not the ones that were spoon fed to me as a child.
I think we are confusing "leadership" with being a boss. Two totally different things. Biblical leadership means leading by example. It means getting down to the lowest levels, serving and washing the feet of others. That is what that kind of leadership is all about not. Not some thug beating his chest demanding his right and declaring himself to be king.
"Servant leadership" is what you're describing here, and in my experience that expression is a handy euphemism for "yes, as the man I'm the head of the household BUT I promise not to be a dick about it." That rarely works out as neatly as it sounds like it should.
Again - putting ultimate decision making power in the hands of ONE person based on any arbitrary criteria, including gender, is bound to make that one person abuse that power. It's simply the way human nature works. Can you think of one person you'd trust enough to run the entire world - or even your entire company - without a check/balance relationship with a few other people? No? Okay then.
but what do you do if there is a serious issue that neither of you is willing to budge on?
Same way a lot of other people do - we try to compromise and accommodate each other. If that's not possible, we end up deferring to the person who feels most strongly.
Random example we're going through at the moment is our kid's name. We both have a strong preference for different names. We could both live with each other's choice, but we like our own better. At the moment, the compromise is that we're going to wait to see what she's like before making a final decision. I am not willing to concede before she's born.
Once she is, we'll give her the name that seems to suit her best. If we can't make a decision, one of us will have to "win" and it will be the person who feels more strongly, but the trade off will most likely be that person getting to name kid #2 whenever s/he comes along.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 3, 2012 10:02:01 GMT -5
Yup.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 3, 2012 10:07:09 GMT -5
DH and I do think of ourselves as equal partners, but when we come to an impass we usually concede to the person who is the most opposed to/in favor of something. Someone has to "win" sometimes.
I never said otherwise, but my point is that the person who has to win shouldn't ALWAYS be the same person and definitely shouldn't always be the man based solely upon his manly manhood qualification.
Yes, sometimes DH wins and sometimes I win. It's not 100% equal always - and I think that is a much more equal approach than one person always having the final say.
Anyway, I'm not sure how men having a role got twisted here to men that take on that role also mistreat, abuse and/or boss their wives around. I don't find that kind of behavior acceptable regardless of any "reason" and imo any man that treats his wife that way doesn't deserve to be respected.
Pink, I don't want you (or anyone else) to get the idea that I hate men, or that I think they're all mad dictators just waiting for someone to hand them enough power to become sadistic assholes. That isn't even close to the truth (and it's a strawman of feminism I find especially annoying).
MOST men I know who have bought into the patriarchal view of relationships are very good men. Very principled, very moral. They "rule" over their wives with kindness and gentleness and usually a fair amount of condescension. I actually find this much more insidious than a man who openly uses his power to become controlling and mean.
Because here's the thing. You cannot possibly internalize the idea that you are "meant" to be the leader based on what's between your legs without ALSO internalizing the idea that the other party in the relationship is NOT cut out to be the leader. You CANNOT entertain the idea that she might be better at it than you; that she might have skills you don't that she'll never get to use. It is absolutely imperative for ANY leader that s/he believe in him/herself enough to get the job done, and by definition that means believing that the people you are leading would not do as good a job as you.
Now, that's fine with ACTUAL leadership positions. Like I said, you HAVE to have that confidence to be an effective leader. But if you're arbitrarily put into a position of leadership based on your genitalia (the same thing would happen in a "matriarchal" system, I firmly believe) you HAVE to believe that your gender elevates you above the other one by nature. Otherwise the system makes NO sense and breaks down rapidly.
In a nutshell, that's why you can be the nicest guy in the world and still greatly damage women in a patriarchal relationship.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 3, 2012 10:08:26 GMT -5
Firebird? I like your post. It seems you have found a way to divide responsibility that works for you and your family. I do have one question, tho. How to you figure out, in your example, who "feels more strongly"?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 3, 2012 10:12:21 GMT -5
And I'm not singling you out. It's just you are the last person I read that from. Several people here have said they make decisions according to who feels more strongly about the issue. I'm just wondering how you can decide who feels more strongly?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2012 10:13:02 GMT -5
DH and I do think of ourselves as equal partners, but when we come to an impass we usually concede to the person who is the most opposed to/in favor of something. Someone has to "win" sometimes.I never said otherwise, but my point is that the person who has to win shouldn't ALWAYS be the same person and definitely shouldn't always be the man based solely upon his manly manhood qualification. Yes, sometimes DH wins and sometimes I win. It's not 100% equal always - and I think that is a much more equal approach than one person always having the final say. Anyway, I'm not sure how men having a role got twisted here to men that take on that role also mistreat, abuse and/or boss their wives around. I don't find that kind of behavior acceptable regardless of any "reason" and imo any man that treats his wife that way doesn't deserve to be respected.Pink, I don't want you (or anyone else) to get the idea that I hate men, or that I think they're all mad dictators just waiting for someone to hand them enough power to become sadistic assholes. That isn't even close to the truth (and it's a strawman of feminism I find especially annoying). MOST men I know who have bought into the patriarchal view of relationships are very good men. Very principled, very moral. They "rule" over their wives with kindness and gentleness and usually a fair amount of condescension. I actually find this much more insidious than a man who openly uses his power to become controlling and mean. Because here's the thing. You cannot possibly internalize the idea that you are "meant" to be the leader based on what's between your legs without ALSO internalizing the idea that the other party in the relationship is NOT cut out to be the leader. You CANNOT entertain the idea that she might be better at it than you; that she might have skills you don't that she'll never get to use. It is absolutely imperative for ANY leader that s/he believe in him/herself enough to get the job done, and by definition that means believing that the people you are leading would not do as good a job as you.Now, that's fine with ACTUAL leadership positions. Like I said, you HAVE to have that confidence to be an effective leader. But if you're arbitrarily put into a position of leadership based on your genitalia (the same thing would happen in a "matriarchal" system, I firmly believe) you HAVE to believe that your gender elevates you above the other one by nature. Otherwise the system makes NO sense and breaks down rapidly. In a nutshell, that's why you can be the nicest guy in the world and still greatly damage women in a patriarchal relationship. yes - I completely agree with the last part of your post. For me, "being the man" I guess is a lot like "being the woman" - provide for your family, help maintain the household and help your partner make the most optimal decisions for your family unit. Except I don't want to catch/kill bugs or cut grass.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 3, 2012 10:19:30 GMT -5
I've seen it happen all too often. It's just one more way for non-believers to tell me how wrong my faith is. "Your faith allows men to dominate women." GEL, I like you a lot. I like Pink very much. Some of my best friends are Christians - my own parents have been devout Catholics for years now, and the truth is that in a lot of ways I owe the Church my relationship with my dad. It has changed him as a person in a way that has allowed us to actually connect as human beings - and that is something I thought could never be done. I have great respect for the faith of my culture, and the faith of my friends. I have great respect for the people in it. And remember, I used to be a Christian myself, up until I was about 22. I know this faith. I lived in it, I structured my entire life around it for more than two decades, and I understand how important and central these ideas are to it. When I say that the Christian faith - and any other faith to which the patriarchy is a central theme - allows men to dominate women, and causes great harm to women, I am not mocking you. I am not deliberately poking holes just for the fun of it. This is a position I have come to over the course of many years and considered very carefully, and it's not something that I throw around casually. I do not feel out of line in saying that I hold this view from a position of some authority. There are some stuff men can do better than women and vice versa. And if we're all trying to be gender neutral for everything, then why do we bother dating the opposite sex? You know, if we're all the same... The list of things that men inherently do better than women just because they're men (and vice versa) is EXTREMELY short. And it's not about being gender neutral, it's about recognizing the reality that humans are far too complex and varied to generalize even based on categories as large as gender. You'd be hard pressed to come up with anything that women do better than men naturally. And that's why I get so pissed off when people proclaim that women are automatically better with small kids than men. Simply put, gender is NOT something that should determine who you are as a person, what you're good at, or why you act in certain ways. Those things come first and foremost from who you are as a person. I DO think humanity is gender neutral, and I don't apologize for thinking that. I like the traditional woman things like cooking and cleaning. And I don't want anybody telling me that is wrong. In fact, they are in for one helluva fight if they do. The traditional life style may not suit everyone and that's ok. But it suits me. I like being a girl. It's not wrong to like whatever you like, but I think it is wrong to equate liking those things with being a girl. I don't like shopping, cooking, cleaning - I have zero desire to be a SAHP, at least at the moment. Does that make me less of a woman? I think not. Such as, the wife that developed a gambling problem after she and her husband retired. Eventually the husband *took* her credit cards (she was getting cash advances at the casinos) and put her on an allowance... The wife that transferred within her company to follow her husband who had to relocate for his job. They relocated again and her company didn't have a position for her that time, but she went with her husband anyway.Switch the genders in these examples, Pink. The woman put her husband on an allowance because of a gambling problem, and the husband followed his wife when she was relocated for her job. Do those still sound like reasonable scenarios? They do to me. I don't see how it has anything to do with following the man just because he's a man.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 3, 2012 10:24:08 GMT -5
Again, poor wording on my part. I should have added that I like the "traditional" roles of being a girl. And I should have added that I don't think less of anyone who doesn't like those "traditional" roles; nor do I think they are any less women or men because they don't adhere to decades old traditions. I was only speaking for myself. The only time I WILL think less of someone is if they tell me I shouldn't like to cook and clean because "It's women like you who are holding us down, Sistah!" Which you don't do, by the way! I tend to forget a person can't hear tone or see facial expressions here and I tend to leave out stuff. I have to clarify a LOT!
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NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,331
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 3, 2012 10:24:44 GMT -5
How to you figure out, in your example, who "feels more strongly"? It's whoever is being the bigger asshole. For us it usually ends up that one person reflects and decides that it doesn't matter THAT much and concedes. DH and I disagreed strongly over Gwen's middle name. It was very important to me to give her the name I wanted. DH was being a butt face because "it's a boy's name". In the end he conceded it to me because he knew how much it'd mean to me. So far we've never come to a point where there is a hill we're both willing to die on, we're usually able to figure out something. ::knock on wood::
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Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 3, 2012 10:26:39 GMT -5
Ok! Now THAT I can understand! LOL!
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