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Post by maryjane on Jun 10, 2012 13:37:35 GMT -5
I watched The McLaughlin Group this morning. Zuckerman and other guests stated that government unions are problematic because:
1.Private union workers make an average of $24/hr while government union workers make an average of $40/hr.
2. Governments are facing less revenue and a limited ability to cut costs due to unions.
Thoughts?
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jun 10, 2012 14:26:36 GMT -5
I watched The McLaughlin Group this morning. Zuckerman and other guests stated that government unions are problematic because: 1.Private union workers make an average of $24/hr while government union workers make an average of $40/hr. 2. Governments are facing less revenue and a limited ability to cut costs due to unions. Thoughts? I don't have the stats handy but IICR they are actually totally different types of workers. The avg private union worker is an auto worker or a teamster type. the avg gov worker is a CPA, Laywer or an engineer. They are WAY more apt to have a graduate degree on top. So is this a call to socialism? It sounds like it if you/they are proposing that all workers should be paid the same regardless of the workers job, qualifications and education.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2012 14:33:31 GMT -5
I watched The McLaughlin Group this morning. Zuckerman and other guests stated that government unions are problematic because: 1.Private union workers make an average of $24/hr while government union workers make an average of $40/hr. 2. Governments are facing less revenue and a limited ability to cut costs due to unions. Thoughts? I don't have the stats handy but IICR they are actually totally different types of workers. The avg private union worker is an auto worker or a teamster type. the avg gov worker is a CPA, Laywer or an engineer. They are WAY more apt to have a graduate degree on top. So is this a call to socialism? It sounds like it if you/they are proposing that all workers should be paid the same regardless of the workers job, qualifications and education. I would bet the largest private unions would be service oriented, but there are also skilled trade unions.. Since government could include the USPS, there are some of the largest unions of low skill work.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 10, 2012 14:36:13 GMT -5
This is what I've heard, as well. Most government union employees wouldn't be $20/hr workers even if they WERE in the private sector.
So while I don't think the union system is perfect, and I can see point 2) above being a problem, I think 1) is apples and oranges. Totally different types of jobs for government vs. private union workers.
I wonder what the average government NON-union worker makes?
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Post by maryjane on Jun 10, 2012 14:59:24 GMT -5
Okay, for a more apples to apples approach, here are what federal vs. private workers make in the same profession. Source www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-pay_N.htmJob Federal Private Difference Airline pilot, copilot, flight engineer $93,690 $120,012 -$26,322 Broadcast technician $90,310 $49,265 $41,045 Budget analyst $73,140 $65,532 $7,608 Chemist $98,060 $72,120 $25,940 Civil engineer $85,970 $76,184 $9,786 Clergy $70,460 $39,247 $31,213 Computer, information systems manager $122,020 $115,705 $6,315 Computer support specialist $45,830 $54,875 -$9,045 Cook $38,400 $23,279 $15,121 Crane, tower operator $54,900 $44,044 $10,856 Dental assistant $36,170 $32,069 $4,101 Economist $101,020 $91,065 $9,955 Editors $42,210 $54,803 -$12,593 Electrical engineer $86,400 $84,653 $1,747 Financial analysts $87,400 $81,232 $6,168 Graphic designer $70,820 $46,565 $24,255 Highway maintenance worker $42,720 $31,376 $11,344 Janitor $30,110 $24,188 $5,922 Landscape architects $80,830 $58,380 $22,450 Laundry, dry-cleaning worker $33,100 $19,945 $13,155 Lawyer $123,660 $126,763 -$3,103 Librarian $76,110 $63,284 $12,826 Locomotive engineer $48,440 $63,125 -$14,685 Machinist $51,530 $44,315 $7,215 Mechanical engineer $88,690 $77,554 $11,136 Office clerk $34,260 $29,863 $4,397 Optometrist $61,530 $106,665 -$45,135 Paralegals $60,340 $48,890 $11,450 Pest control worker $48,670 $33,675 $14,995 Physicians, surgeons $176,050 $177,102 -$1,052 Physician assistant $77,770 $87,783 -$10,013 Procurement clerk $40,640 $34,082 $6,558 Public relations manager $132,410 $88,241 $44,169 Recreation worker $43,630 $21,671 $21,959 Registered nurse $74,460 $63,780 $10,680 Respiratory therapist $46,740 $50,443 -$3,703 Secretary $44,500 $33,829 $10,671 Sheet metal worker $49,700 $43,725 $5,975 Statistician $88,520 $78,065 $10,455 Surveyor $78,710 $67,336 $11,374
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 10, 2012 15:07:21 GMT -5
Getting closer Mary Jane, but there are other factors to cosnider too. Government employees typically are in their jobs longer than priavate sector eomployees, so that could easily account for the 6k average difference.
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Post by maryjane on Jun 10, 2012 15:33:45 GMT -5
Getting closer Mary Jane, but there are other factors to cosnider too. Government employees typically are in their jobs longer than priavate sector eomployees, so that could easily account for the 6k average difference. 6k difference? Not if we look at total compensation. I only posted salary. The average difference in benefits is $30,903 per year. What accounts for the average $36,903 difference in salary and benefits or total compensation? From the article I posted: "These salary figures do not include the value of health, pension and other benefits, which averaged $40,785 per federal employee in 2008 vs. $9,882 per private worker, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis."
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Post by midjd on Jun 10, 2012 16:10:18 GMT -5
So it looks like it's the lower-skilled jobs that average higher pay, while the higher-skilled jobs pay more in the private sector. The optometrist, pilot, and PR manager differences are especially interesting.
I've found that to be true in my job (government non-union) as well. The admins earn much more than they would in the private sector (I think starting salary is in the low $30Ks), but the lawyers, accountants, and other professionals earn much less.
I wonder what they're including in the benefits calculation besides the obvious? Our health insurance isn't Cadillac, but we do get a lot of PTO - if the number of those days is calculated by the average employee salary, that's probably another $5K there. I'm wondering how they calculate the pension, too - if they're including it as a benefit for ALL employees, they may not be factoring that not everyone will vest in the pension. Ours takes 10 years to vest, some departments (especially IT) have a 100% turnover in that time.
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Post by 973beachbum on Jun 10, 2012 16:22:24 GMT -5
So it looks like it's the lower-skilled jobs that average higher pay, while the higher-skilled jobs pay more in the private sector. The optometrist, pilot, and PR manager differences are especially interesting. I've found that to be true in my job (government non-union) as well. The admins earn much more than they would in the private sector (I think starting salary is in the low $30Ks), but the lawyers, accountants, and other professionals earn much less. I wonder what they're including in the benefits calculation besides the obvious? Our health insurance isn't Cadillac, but we do get a lot of PTO - if the number of those days is calculated by the average employee salary, that's probably another $5K there. I'm wondering how they calculate the pension, too - if they're including it as a benefit for ALL employees, they may not be factoring that not everyone will vest in the pension. Ours takes 10 years to vest, some departments (especially IT) have a 100% turnover in that time. This is the article that breaks it down. www.cbo.gov/publication/42921You are absolutely right Mid.
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Post by maryjane on Jun 10, 2012 16:29:35 GMT -5
So it looks like it's the lower-skilled jobs that average higher pay, while the higher-skilled jobs pay more in the private sector. The optometrist, pilot, and PR manager differences are especially interesting. Really? It seemed like that was true for medical jobs, but not high skilled jobs overall. Budget analysts, chemists, civil engineers, economists, electrical engineers, financial analysts, graphic designers, librarians, pr managers, registered nurses and statisticians are among the many, many high skilled jobs that pay more for fed employees than private sector employees.
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Post by 973beachbum on Jun 10, 2012 16:43:26 GMT -5
So it looks like it's the lower-skilled jobs that average higher pay, while the higher-skilled jobs pay more in the private sector. The optometrist, pilot, and PR manager differences are especially interesting. Really? It seemed like that was true for medical jobs, but not high skilled jobs overall. Budget analysts, chemists, civil engineers, economists, electrical engineers, financial analysts, graphic designers, librarians, pr managers, registered nurses and statisticians are among the many, many high skilled jobs that pay more for fed employees than private sector employees. Since when? DH is a civil engineer with a masters degree. He was emailed last week by the Fed Gov asking if he wanted to be considered for a job as an engineer. The pay, which is non negotiable with them, was $44K that is very typical from all the jobs and salaries that go with them for engineers listed for the fed gov.
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Post by maryjane on Jun 10, 2012 16:51:53 GMT -5
Beachbum, I posted data from the Bureau of Economic Analysis. The average federal civil engineer makes more than the average private engineer (see above data and source). Anecdotes are helpful and relevant, but I am not sure that one letter disproves data the for the same field published by the Beureau of Economic Analysis.
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Post by 973beachbum on Jun 10, 2012 16:59:48 GMT -5
Beachbum, I posted data from the Bureau of Economic Analysis. The average federal civil engineer makes more than the average private engineer (see above data and source). Anecdotes are helpful and relevant, but I am not sure that one letter disproves data the for the same field published by the Beureau of Economic Analysis. I am not talking about anecedotes. That seems to be the standard response here to anything that doesn't fit the YM mythology. An engineer with 10 years experience plus a masters is a GS 7. the highest they could do is a step 10. That pays. GS-7 $33,979 $35,112 $36,245 $37,378 $38,511 $39,644 $40,777 41,910 $43,043 $44,176The next level would have been a GS-9 and he would have needed a Phd to get it.
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Post by maryjane on Jun 10, 2012 17:03:05 GMT -5
So, are you saying that the Bureau of Economic Analysis numbers are wrong? Do you think that USA Today used grossly incorrect numbers? ETA: You are talking about an anecdote. You are using a personal narrative as evidence. Even if it is correct, you have a sample size of one. It doesn't mean that your information is wrong, but it doesn't represent the average better than the data provided.
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Post by 973beachbum on Jun 10, 2012 17:09:35 GMT -5
So, are you saying that the Bureau of Economic Analysis numbers are wrong? Do you think that USA Today used grossly incorrect numbers? I have no idea how they got those numbers. I am saying that if an engineer wants a job with the fed gov they will not get paid anywhere near what they would make in the private sector. The GS pay levels are a matter of public record. It is simple a fact. In order for him to be paid comparably in Gov he would have to be a GS12 and that just isn't possible without a Phd and 15 years of experience. I have no idea how other professions do with them. I just know a couple of lawyers and CPA's. They also say they make about a third of what they would make in the private sector. Given what the GS amounts are I believe them.
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Post by 973beachbum on Jun 10, 2012 17:12:13 GMT -5
So, are you saying that the Bureau of Economic Analysis numbers are wrong? Do you think that USA Today used grossly incorrect numbers? ETA: You are talking about an anecdote. You are using a personal narrative as evidence. Even if it is correct, you have a sample size of one. It doesn't mean that your information is wrong, but it doesn't represent the average better than the data provided. It is not personal or an anecedote. They have jobs that have GS levels attatched to them period. The level for an engineer with a masters degree and 10 years of experience is a GS-7. I posted what that salary is. The gov doesn't negotiate that. they can't legally. The GS schedule for pay is the GS schedule for pay. I know you want but it simply is. ETA I think I get what the USA Today article did. I simple took an average of EVERY civil engineer working for the goverment and got an average. Then it took the salary of every civil engineer working in the private sector and got an average. That is a true average but it doesn't get into what it takes for those civil engineers to get to those high salaries. They have to have a very large percent of them with PHD's and have been there a really long time to get so many with such high salaries. In the private sector an engineer with a PHD isn't exactly usual. The ones that do normally teach at a univ or get paid huge dollars. Or both. The governments education requirments and required years of experience is crazy high next to the private sector in regards to GS level pay.
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Post by midjd on Jun 10, 2012 17:15:21 GMT -5
How are we defining "high-skilled"? Most of the jobs above may be on the professional level, but don't require more than a 4-year degree. Graphic designers and PR managers don't necessarily need ANY degree if they have a body of work that speaks for itself. Many of the other jobs (engineers and analysts in particular) will have a mix of Bachelors, Masters and PhDs - this mix may be tilted toward the low or high end depending on sector.
I think breaking down earnings by job type, degree level and government vs. private sector gives the most accurate picture. But I guess it depends on whether you define "high-skilled" as including many jobs that require only a 4-year degree.
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Post by Apple on Jun 10, 2012 17:15:55 GMT -5
I'm not sure how they got the numbers either, but I know the engineers where I work could make a lot more money in the private sector. They are not well paid where I work (fed), and they make much less than the electricians, mechanics, and riggers.
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Post by maryjane on Jun 10, 2012 17:19:32 GMT -5
Yes, they are probably making up the numbers. Even if they are right, they are wrong because they aren't the right numbers. Gotcha.
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Post by Apple on Jun 10, 2012 17:21:37 GMT -5
And, just thought of this, but the GS where I am can't be union, where as the "skilled labor" can. So maybe there is another area of engineer, etc, but I've never seen it.
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Post by 973beachbum on Jun 10, 2012 17:25:10 GMT -5
Yes, they are probably making up the numbers. Even if they are right, they are wrong because they aren't the right numbers. Gotcha. I explained above that the number can be an average and not have any connection to what a person would make with the same qualifications in the same job in the gov that they would make in the private sector.
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Post by midjd on Jun 10, 2012 17:26:55 GMT -5
You asked our thoughts Maryjane, you're getting them.
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Post by maryjane on Jun 10, 2012 17:30:22 GMT -5
Yes, they are probably making up the numbers. Even if they are right, they are wrong because they aren't the right numbers. Gotcha. I explained above that the number can be an average and not have any connection to what a person would make with the same qualifications in the same job in the gov that they would make in the private sector. You explained your guesses about how the Bureau got their data. To actually explain how they got their data, you would have had to research how they got their data.
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Post by 973beachbum on Jun 10, 2012 17:32:22 GMT -5
I explained above that the number can be an average and not have any connection to what a person would make with the same qualifications in the same job in the gov that they would make in the private sector. You explained your guesses about how the Bureau got their data. To actually explain how they got their data, you would have had to research how they got their data. According to your own article it says.
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Post by maryjane on Jun 10, 2012 17:33:05 GMT -5
You asked our thoughts Maryjane, you're getting them. Yes, no one can say I didn't bring this on myself. Silly me and silly Mort Zuckerman.
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Post by Apple on Jun 10, 2012 17:33:50 GMT -5
I'd like to see the pay scale they got these numbers from. Where I work, the number for machinist and crane operators are way low--ours make more than that, much more. But the numbers for engineers are high since ours don't make even close to what is listed. They don't list electricians or I could tell you how close/far off that was. I do know that the government sector and private sector electrician (if both are union) come out pretty even, except there may be a big difference in the overtime one can get. Also, there is a difference in government organizations--in the job I have now, I could go to one fed organization and make about $10 less an hour, or go to another and make about $5 more. ETA: all three organizations in the same general area, sometimes side-by-side, so it's not different COL.
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Post by maryjane on Jun 10, 2012 17:37:07 GMT -5
You explained your guesses about how the Bureau got their data. To actually explain how they got their data, you would have had to research how they got their data. According to your own article it says. Opinions of a Union President are not facts just because they are printed in an article. I have only been talking about data. You can talk about opinions and emails all you want.
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Post by Apple on Jun 10, 2012 17:39:57 GMT -5
But the data may not be accurate...
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jun 10, 2012 17:48:29 GMT -5
How is the McLaughlin group up on a pedastal anymore than anyone else? "Journalists James Fallows and ex-McLaughlin panelist Jack Germond have opined that the show glories too much in sensationalism and simplification, to the detriment of serious journalism.[" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_McLaughlin_Group(Not that I'm all in favor of wikipedia as a source on it's own.)
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Post by maryjane on Jun 10, 2012 17:56:25 GMT -5
When did I say that The McLaughlin group was on a pedestal? I always try to mention where what I am talking about comes from as a courtesy to others. For example, I heard a story on the radio a few weeks ago and posted it here. I included the name of the show and segment in case people were interested and also to reference.
Personally, I have a lot of respect for Mort Zuckerman and his accomplishments, but I haven't elevated him in any of my posts either.
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