midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,719
|
Post by midjd on Jun 10, 2012 17:56:31 GMT -5
Exactly. Comparing the average pay of a job category that encompasses a wide range of degrees/duties/years of experience is never going to be more accurate than comparing job-by-job.
|
|
|
Post by maryjane on Jun 10, 2012 18:00:14 GMT -5
Right. We have already established that the Bureau of Labor Statistics makes up their numbers and/or if they did use any real numbers they are not really real because they are not the right numbers. Silly BLS.
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,719
|
Post by midjd on Jun 10, 2012 18:01:17 GMT -5
Why are you taking this so personally? That's not what anyone is saying.
|
|
|
Post by maryjane on Jun 10, 2012 18:02:39 GMT -5
I agree this isn't personal.
|
|
Apple
Junior Associate
Always travel with a sense of humor
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 15:51:04 GMT -5
Posts: 9,938
Mini-Profile Name Color: dc0e29
|
Post by Apple on Jun 10, 2012 18:06:01 GMT -5
Right. We have already established that the Bureau of Labor Statistics makes up their numbers and/or if they did use any real numbers they are not really real because they are not the right numbers. Silly BLS. I stated I wanted to know *where* they got their numbers (what scale) because I can point out a few that are grossly inaccurate for my region. I'm sure there is other "data" out there that shows vastly different figures.
|
|
|
Post by maryjane on Jun 10, 2012 18:08:55 GMT -5
Apple, if you really want to know, you can go to bls.gov. They give pretty detailed definitions of terms and explain their methodology. I am sure you can find out exactly there they get their data.
|
|
Apple
Junior Associate
Always travel with a sense of humor
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 15:51:04 GMT -5
Posts: 9,938
Mini-Profile Name Color: dc0e29
|
Post by Apple on Jun 10, 2012 18:17:21 GMT -5
Hmmm.... I also got curious about how many federal union people there are to create this problem (honestly, I thought union and government were fairly unique--even where I am you have union and non-union side by side since you have the choice to join the union or not, you get the same pay). According to this link www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/24/AR2010012402764.html in 2009, 28% of federal workers were union. I'm sure everything is their fault though Sorry, just seems to be the trend to bash federal workers for "making too much" or having jobs that are "too steady" during down times, then laughing at them for being stupid working such "low paid jobs" during the good times.
|
|
Knee Deep in Water Chloe
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 21:04:44 GMT -5
Posts: 13,776
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1980e6
|
Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jun 10, 2012 18:17:42 GMT -5
Silly me and silly Mort Zuckerman. I easily interpret this as you believe Mort Zuckerman's opinion is worthy and other's opinions are not. And neither are Zuckerman's opinions, so you're not only talking about data. I have no problem with having a discussion, but don't pretend your shizzle is better than anyone else's shizzle just because you don't want to consider other facets of a topic.
|
|
TheOtherMe
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 14:40:52 GMT -5
Posts: 27,176
Mini-Profile Name Color: e619e6
|
Post by TheOtherMe on Jun 10, 2012 18:23:02 GMT -5
I am a retired federal employee who did belong to the union. The union doesn't have a lot of clout because it is illegal for federal employees to strike, as the air traffic controllers found out the hard way when they decided to do it anyway.
They can try to influence Congress with the budget, but in times like this, they just try to get federal employees to be able to stay the course. I think currently federal employees pay is frozen. I know travel budgets have been slashed.
They do a decent job of negotiating health benefits, which was worth every penny I ever paid in dues.
They also can help employees who have a need to file a grievance and are not obligated to assist those who don't pay dues.
|
|
Apple
Junior Associate
Always travel with a sense of humor
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 15:51:04 GMT -5
Posts: 9,938
Mini-Profile Name Color: dc0e29
|
Post by Apple on Jun 10, 2012 18:31:30 GMT -5
Yes, *most* federal jobs are currently under pay freeze, and travel budget is getting another big slash next year. I found this blog interesting... open.salon.com/blog/martinhill/2010/11/30/federal_worker_wages_define_federal_workerAfter reading it, have to point out that our janitors are contracted, as is the security and several other things. Have not figured out where BLS got their numbers yet. Wondering if I should point out I'm a republican?
|
|
Apple
Junior Associate
Always travel with a sense of humor
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 15:51:04 GMT -5
Posts: 9,938
Mini-Profile Name Color: dc0e29
|
Post by Apple on Jun 10, 2012 18:37:32 GMT -5
I can see the good and bad of the union. On one hand, they do fight for our benefits and will fight for the employee when management is clearly in the wrong (I've only come close to having to file a grievance once after a boss tried to "pay me back" for not sleeping with him as a last "F U" as he walked out the door to take a temp position elsewhere. He made a big mistake in doing something that was a black and white difference from every previous decision he had made, it was easy to prove. He was lucky the guy taking his place reversed the decision after talking to my direct boss.)
Anyway, the sucky part is they also fought for drunk coworker who is useless, inept, and should have been fired for showing up drunk after a series of other issues (had a BAL of .15 almost four HOURS after showing up to work).
|
|
|
Post by maryjane on Jun 10, 2012 18:52:46 GMT -5
Silly me and silly Mort Zuckerman. I easily interpret this as you believe Mort Zuckerman's opinion is worthy and other's opinions are not. And neither are Zuckerman's opinions, so you're not only talking about data. I have no problem with having a discussion, but don't pretend your shizzle is better than anyone else's shizzle just because you don't want to consider other facets of a topic. I don't think that my opinions are better than anyone elses. It seemed to me that everything I wrote was being quickly dismissed by many people. Even if it isn't personal, person after person telling me that what I am posting is wrong made me want to point out that someone who is ALSO very smart (just like all of you) had a different view. It isn't that he is better, or that I am better, but that maybe that it can't be instantly dismissed. I am not pretending anything about my shizzle as you put it. I am genuinely sorry if I offended. That is not my intent. Until Chloe's post, I think everyone did a great job of having a discussion without making it personal. I am not offended by Chloe's post. I am, however, starting a new job on Monday and am choosing to direct my energy towards that.
|
|
The J
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 11:01:13 GMT -5
Posts: 4,821
|
Post by The J on Jun 10, 2012 19:26:43 GMT -5
Well though it seems that maryjane has left the building, I'm going to point out that the OP talks about "government unions", while the numbers provided later on are only federal government jobs. There are a lot more state and local government employees than federal. Those pay scales are vastly different.
|
|
Knee Deep in Water Chloe
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 21:04:44 GMT -5
Posts: 13,776
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1980e6
|
Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jun 10, 2012 20:19:50 GMT -5
Could someone please enlighten as to why what I said was the catalyst for maryjane's departure? I truly don't try to be persnickety, so I'd like to grow from this. Thanks. ;D
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,719
|
Post by midjd on Jun 10, 2012 20:21:59 GMT -5
Geez, of all the debates over which to delete your account... I didn't think anyone was dismissing the conclusions in the OP - just questioning - but maybe that's because I was on the other side.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,310
|
Post by swamp on Jun 10, 2012 20:24:51 GMT -5
Could someone please enlighten as to why what I said was the catalyst for maryjane's departure? I truly don't try to be persnickety, so I'd like to grow from this. Thanks. ;D I think it was the Schizzle comment.
|
|
973beachbum
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:13 GMT -5
Posts: 10,501
|
Post by 973beachbum on Jun 10, 2012 20:28:58 GMT -5
Could someone please enlighten as to why what I said was the catalyst for maryjane's departure? I truly don't try to be persnickety, so I'd like to grow from this. Thanks. ;D I think it was the Schizzle comment. No I think it was my BO.
|
|
Knee Deep in Water Chloe
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 21:04:44 GMT -5
Posts: 13,776
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1980e6
|
Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jun 10, 2012 20:29:13 GMT -5
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,310
|
Post by swamp on Jun 10, 2012 20:33:31 GMT -5
Chloe gets a Mean Girl pink satin jacket
|
|
Knee Deep in Water Chloe
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 21:04:44 GMT -5
Posts: 13,776
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1980e6
|
Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jun 10, 2012 20:34:42 GMT -5
Chloe gets a Mean Girl pink satin jacket Yeah!
|
|
Knee Deep in Water Chloe
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 21:04:44 GMT -5
Posts: 13,776
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1980e6
|
Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jun 10, 2012 20:35:24 GMT -5
I think it was the Schizzle comment. No I think it was my BO. Showering might be recommended more than once per year now.
|
|
Apple
Junior Associate
Always travel with a sense of humor
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 15:51:04 GMT -5
Posts: 9,938
Mini-Profile Name Color: dc0e29
|
Post by Apple on Jun 10, 2012 20:40:00 GMT -5
No I think it was my BO. Showering might be recommended more than once per year now. Crap. Is it June 10th already?
|
|
973beachbum
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:13 GMT -5
Posts: 10,501
|
Post by 973beachbum on Jun 10, 2012 20:44:47 GMT -5
Chloe gets a Mean Girl pink satin jacket and I was this close.
|
|
973beachbum
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:13 GMT -5
Posts: 10,501
|
Post by 973beachbum on Jun 10, 2012 20:45:51 GMT -5
Showering might be recommended more than once per year now. Crap. Is it June 10th already? Swiming in the ocean once a week doesn't count?
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 11, 2012 1:28:50 GMT -5
"So it looks like it's the lower-skilled jobs that average higher pay, while the higher-skilled jobs pay more in the private sector. The optometrist, pilot, and PR manager differences are especially interesting." That's been my experience as well. The lower skilled jobs that require less education in the government do get a pretty sweet deal. The higher you go the less the sweet deal becomes. The higher you go the worse the comparrison becomes. What the article you posted failed to mention is how badly government executives are paid relative to their private sector counterparts. A director of a federal agency that manages tens of thousands of employees only makes 170k or so. A CEO of a similar sized company would be making millions. Just look at the president, responsible for millions of federal employees and military but only makes 400k or so a year .
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 11, 2012 1:32:17 GMT -5
"ETA: You are talking about an anecdote. You are using a personal narrative as evidence. Even if it is correct, you have a sample size of one. It doesn't mean that your information is wrong, but it doesn't represent the average better than the data provided."
Technically you're both right. A civil engineer with a masters degree can't start out any higher than a GS 7, but they get promoted to full performance level after a few years to GS 12 (most likely) it would take three years to get there. A GS 12 pay package would be more in line with the numbers you posted Mary Jane.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 11, 2012 1:38:10 GMT -5
One other thing I'd like to point out, since we're talking about the federal level, is most employees can't or don't belong to the union. The feds don't allow "white collar" employees to join any union. Also, you are never forced to join a union in the federal government Furthermore Unions are different at the federal level (they are really weak compared to other unions). There is no collective bargaining, there is no contract. Pay rates are set by the office of personnel management and COLA adjustments are voted on annually by congress. It's also illegal for federal employees to strike. I'm exactly sure what the unions do, but I don't think they do any more than lobby for improvements to working conditions or help employees with grievances. For example, they probably had a hand in the decision a few years ago to let us use our accumulated sick leave to add onto our years of service, instead of use or lose like it was before.
There are many other differences between feds and other government workers. Our pensions are not nearly as generous, no one retires after 20-25 years. It takes at least 30 years to get full retirement, and they offer incentives to retire at 62. Furthermore our benefits aren't as great as you might think. Except for our pensions, I don't think our benefits are any better than a typical fortune 500 company package. We don't really get bonuses nor do we have good dental or vision insurance offered, and we don't have short term disability.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 11, 2012 6:51:50 GMT -5
LMFAO! Wow....THIS is a topic that someone got their feathers in such a ruffle that they closed their account? Where is the tongue lashing for those of you that clearly should have known this poster was getting her panties in a bunch and therefore you should have told her she was right??? Or am I the only one that has to bow down to the unstable masses?
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,865
|
Post by zibazinski on Jun 11, 2012 6:59:52 GMT -5
Nah, there's me but I have learned to stop posting when someone starts their pity party because there are always the feel gooders who want to make you feel like crap because someone starts to boo-hoo. It's just a forum, people. Unhappy? Don't come here. It isn't like we strong arm posters. I didn't see the big deal, either, but then I didn't get the point to begin with of the post so there's that. Dummy me.
|
|
wvugurl26
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 15:25:30 GMT -5
Posts: 21,698
|
Post by wvugurl26 on Jun 11, 2012 7:03:24 GMT -5
If you compare apples to apples those in professional positions could make more in the private sector. A lot of lower level stuff is now contracted out. Maintenance, security, cleaning and the cafe are contracted out at my building.
At my orientation the union guy said they were responsible for the flexible schedules like AWS. My class was entirely white collar people and the guy was still there encouraging people to join so I'm not sure about the rules. I think I threw the stuff out bc I work for an OIG so we are prohibited from joining since we are classified as management.
I have GEHA dental and I don't think it is bad. They have paid for all of my stuff. I also get a discount on eye exams, contacts and glasses.
|
|