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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 21:04:13 GMT -5
Meghan... Dead sea scrolls at the franklin next month!
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Apr 23, 2012 21:08:10 GMT -5
Meghan... Dead sea scrolls at the franklin next month!  I want to go! Just checked and it's open through October 14! BF and I already planning on going! |
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 23, 2012 21:12:51 GMT -5
"Milee, it's not your posts I'm referring to."
I think Swamp is referring to my post. But I'll echo Milee's comments and say I never thought that, just talking about the general population, not non STEM majors. I think non STEM degree holders have useful skills. After all, I know next to nothing about law, or insurance, or accounting. I'm glad we have people who do know those things.
So no, I don't think people who study liberal arts are morons.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 23, 2012 21:24:30 GMT -5
I didn't find your post offensive either, Phoenix - honestly this thread hasn't been too bad, but I've read a few before and know how it ends  |
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simser
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Post by simser on Apr 23, 2012 21:38:23 GMT -5
1) Going into engineering isn't for everyone. Don't make someone go through classes that they don't want to go through. I love being an engineer, but my parents love being teachers. They made a living.
2) For the person who's son is a dwarf and wants to be an actor. He's probably the best bet I know for someone to make it. But I feel like they get stereotyped. Is he ok with that? Has he even thought about it? By the way I know a lot of theater majors who have decent jobs in the theater.
I've also found a lot of people at my job who are pulling in 50-60k with no bachelors degree. It has really made me wonder why I slogged through 11 years of higher education to make 40-50k more than them. It's going to take >8 years to make that up. The only good thing is that I learned to manage a small amount of money so hopefully I can manage that money well.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Apr 23, 2012 22:08:17 GMT -5
 I deal with God damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills, I am good in dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people? |
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Apr 23, 2012 23:21:52 GMT -5
Creative writing came up because the article profiled a creative writing major working at Starbucks. His parents paid off his student loans and he is now he is thinking of going back for his graduate degree to advance his career. I guess my advice to him would be to take out his nose rings, but maybe that isn't a hindrance to employment in an artsy field. www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47141463/ns/business-stocks_and_economy/ |
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Apr 23, 2012 23:52:52 GMT -5
LOL, I'd like to think so to, but I'm not betting a 5 figure student loan on it!  A 5 figure student loan isn't really that bad. It's a couple hundred a month. If you don't go to school at all you'll definitely be working at Starbucks. Might as well take the chance and set yourself up for the higher paying job just in case there's still a sane hiring manager left in the country. Meh. I know lots of people who've done just fine without getting a 4 yr degree. Business owners, successful yuppies, single-income families with kids. None of them worked as a barista or at Mcdonalds or delivering pizzas for a living. Heck, I've worked in accounting for 15 years without any formal accounting education. It's not an all or nothing proposition. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 23:56:28 GMT -5
Speaking as someone who dropped the engineering program in freshman year to get a teaching degree... one way to ensure more numbsack dumbshit teachers is to let them coast through what passes as an undergraduate teacher education program in this country... I didn't say she shouldn't teach... but no reason she can't teach with an engineering degree... rather than an el ed one... she is smart... extremely... and while i don't think she'd be wasted on a teaching job... i do think her intellect and prospects would be wasted settling for a teaching prep program... Sorry, but i think this is pretty offensive to teachers. I really get sick of reading the barrage of teacher bashing.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 0:18:51 GMT -5
But if you have a good GPA from a good school in a degree that was solid in math and science, it is still fairly easy to get a job teaching math or science... lots of programs to help math and science majors teach... whereas if you get the teaching degree, its not like you can just take a class and suddenly be an engineer. Its about options and opportunities. Sure, you might not always get the job you want right of with an engineering degree either, but you have a whole lot more options than if you just get an elementary education degree... I don't know what state you guys are in, but in WA you get your degree in your discipline (4 year) first & then get certified to teach (1.5 year cert program) if you are going to teach at a Secondary Education level. Elementary school teacher is just a stand alone 4 year teaching degree. |
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Apr 24, 2012 1:33:23 GMT -5
Speaking as someone who dropped the engineering program in freshman year to get a teaching degree... one way to ensure more numbsack dumbshit teachers is to let them coast through what passes as an undergraduate teacher education program in this country... I didn't say she shouldn't teach... but no reason she can't teach with an engineering degree... rather than an el ed one... she is smart... extremely... and while i don't think she'd be wasted on a teaching job... i do think her intellect and prospects would be wasted settling for a teaching prep program... Sorry, but i think this is pretty offensive to teachers. I really get sick of reading the barrage of teacher bashing. Shooby, I agree. Being a teacher takes more than just knowing your subject. My cousin is a teacher and I have seen what she goes through. There are many people who are brilliant in their areas of expertise (particularly in math and science) but can't teach their way out a paper bag. Just because you understand something doesn't mean that you can get other people to understand it. This is especially important when you consider that teachers have to teach to all different types of learners. It isn't okay to teach to one style of learner (say visual) and leave everyone else (auditory, hands on, etc) behind. Saying "well, I gave the student the information, it isn't my fault that they couldn't learn it" doesn't cut it and, as the teacher, it is your job to convey the information in a method that the student can understand/learn. Add to that, teachers aren't just responsible for their subject. They are responsible for teaching ethics, watching for abuse, overcoming bad parenting, and getting children the things they need to thrive (including food). That is a tall order and it isn't enough to say "I taught them how to add 2+2" when the child is neglected, starving, can't speak english, etc. I understand it isn't one of our "approved" professions but teachers are just as vital as other professions (even our beloved STEM careers). |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 4:53:36 GMT -5
Speaking as someone who dropped the engineering program in freshman year to get a teaching degree... one way to ensure more numbsack dumbshit teachers is to let them coast through what passes as an undergraduate teacher education program in this country... I didn't say she shouldn't teach... but no reason she can't teach with an engineering degree... rather than an el ed one... she is smart... extremely... and while i don't think she'd be wasted on a teaching job... i do think her intellect and prospects would be wasted settling for a teaching prep program... Sorry, but i think this is pretty offensive to teachers. I really get sick of reading the barrage of teacher bashing. Lol. Bashing myself? I was bashing our teacher prep programs, which I've found to be woefully inefficient and much less rigorous than they should be... I coasted through teacher prep... I taught 8 years of special Ed before staying one to homeschool my kids... I'm not what most people would call a teacher basher, lol, but definitely able to recognize the weaknesses in the system, and advocate or change. and none of that impacts my original premise... That an engineering degree will I've her many ore options, including teaching, than a teaching degree alone would offer... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 4:58:32 GMT -5
But if you have a good GPA from a good school in a degree that was solid in math and science, it is still fairly easy to get a job teaching math or science... lots of programs to help math and science majors teach... whereas if you get the teaching degree, its not like you can just take a class and suddenly be an engineer. Its about options and opportunities. Sure, you might not always get the job you want right of with an engineering degree either, but you have a whole lot more options than if you just get an elementary education degree... I don't know what state you guys are in, but in WA you get your degree in your discipline (4 year) first & then get certified to teach (1.5 year cert program) if you are going to teach at a Secondary Education level. Elementary school teacher is just a stand alone 4 year teaching degree. All secondary Ed teachers do a masters program? Here you may have to major in a subject and minor in the Ed (the university where I got my masters even ran their el Ed program that way). But no one teaching at the secondary level HAS to do 5 1/2 year program here, it's still 4 years BS. (I did my spec Ed in 3 1/2 ...) |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 5:56:12 GMT -5
I just find it curious that everyone thinks anyone with a degree in anything can just walk in and be a teacher. It is a bizarre belief we don't apply to any other field. We don't assume that just because you have a degree in biology or chemistry or science that you just walk in and "sub" as a nurse, physical therapist, occupational therapist or whatever. We don't assume that having a degree in chemical engineering just qualifies you to just walk in with no other training and "sub" as an airline mechanic. Teaching is a profession that involves theory, research and application just like any other profession. And, teaching is much more about core knowledge of subject. There are ways to impart knowledge. In addition, there are different learning styles, social issues and on and on and on that affect the teaching process. We act as if children are just passive sponges and all we have to do is regurgitate information and that somehow learning occurs. Yet most people i know think teaching is "so easy". I have been Adjunct Faculty at a University and done some guest lectures. Preparing even a hour lecture takes hours of preparation. I no more call myself a Teacher than i do an Astronaut.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 8:10:49 GMT -5
Extending what former said, there are lots of people with conflicts of interest in this game... i really think a lot of college students are told they can do exactly what they want and make the big bucks in life... I've been trying to convince a friend that her smarty daughter should get an engineering degree, and then if she wants to teach, adding on the cert is cake later... but teaching is 'what she really wants to do'... oh well, i guess its better than creative writing ??   Yeah, that's really frustrating. Both degrees take approximately the same time and cost the same, but one locks you into one profession and the other gives you multiple opportunities and the possibility of earning many times the other. Which one should you choose?  I've already started to have this talk with my kids. Of course I'll still love them and be proud of them if they get a degree in a less useful field, but I've been very upfront about the difference between a degree as an investment and a degree for a dream. I'll financially support an investment, but a "dream" degree will need to be funded out of their work and savings partly to test how much they really want that. I guarantee an engineering degree costs more than a teaching degree due to more expensive books plus lab fees and engineering tools. Not to meniton, maybe she has no interest in an engineering degree. Maybe she doens't like math and science. Just because someone is smart doesn't mean they should major in engineering. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 8:15:57 GMT -5
LOL, I'd like to think so to, but I'm not betting a 5 figure student loan on it! A 5 figure student loan isn't really that bad. It's a couple hundred a month. If you don't go to school at all you'll definitely be working at Starbucks. Might as well take the chance and set yourself up for the higher paying job just in case there's still a sane hiring manager left in the country. Meh. I know lots of people who've done just fine without getting a 4 yr degree. Business owners, successful yuppies, single-income families with kids. None of them worked as a barista or at Mcdonalds or delivering pizzas for a living. Heck, I've worked in accounting for 15 years without any formal accounting education. It's not an all or nothing proposition. I think we did this discussion - whether or not you can be successful without a degree or something like that. Could you get your same job today without a degree or any accounting education? |
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Apr 24, 2012 8:28:03 GMT -5
"and none of that impacts my original premise... That an engineering degree will I've her many ore options, including teaching, than a teaching degree alone would offer... "
I would love to know what these more options are speaking as a holder of two engineering degrees. I just spoke on the phone last night to a fellow Purdue engineering grad who is now a high school math teacher because of the dearth of jobs in his area. So far, they aren't out-sourcing teaching to India. Not true of most engineering jobs.
I'm considering his advice about Physics and Math teaching in a High School setting. I'd prefer and did like teaching at the college level, however, I'd need a PhD to be at a decent school and to make a living wage IMO.
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Post by findingdeadbeats on Apr 24, 2012 8:37:44 GMT -5
I'm in the process of finishing up my AS degree. Even the most basic of receptionist jobs are now using that as the bare minimum education they will look at. The local CC won't hire you unless you have at least an AS/AA, and I am seeing it more and more in the advertisements for jobs.
I used to be able to use my Microsoft MCSE to get around that requirement for working in IT, but for the jobs I am looking at now it appears I will need at least a 2 year degree to even get my resume read.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Apr 24, 2012 8:40:54 GMT -5
Meh. I know lots of people who've done just fine without getting a 4 yr degree. Business owners, successful yuppies, single-income families with kids. None of them worked as a barista or at Mcdonalds or delivering pizzas for a living. Heck, I've worked in accounting for 15 years without any formal accounting education. It's not an all or nothing proposition. I think we did this discussion - whether or not you can be successful without a degree or something like that. Could you get your same job today without a degree or any accounting education?  A 19-year old friend of mine just did. I'm not meaning to start any kind of new discussion. I just know a lot of people, including Millenials, who are doing just fine without a 4 yr degree. I don't think there's anything wrong with getting a 4 yr degree if it is most likely to pay off as an investment. But I think that the belief that everyone must have them unless they want to sling hash for a living is not true. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 8:41:46 GMT -5
Yeah, that's really frustrating. Both degrees take approximately the same time and cost the same, but one locks you into one profession and the other gives you multiple opportunities and the possibility of earning many times the other. Which one should you choose? I've already started to have this talk with my kids. Of course I'll still love them and be proud of them if they get a degree in a less useful field, but I've been very upfront about the difference between a degree as an investment and a degree for a dream. I'll financially support an investment, but a "dream" degree will need to be funded out of their work and savings partly to test how much they really want that. I guarantee an engineering degree costs more than a teaching degree due to more expensive books plus lab fees and engineering tools. Not to meniton, maybe she has no interest in an engineering degree. Maybe she doens't like math and science. Just because someone is smart doesn't mean they should major in engineering.WHAT?!?!?! Blasphemy! Only lazy idiots get non-STEM degrees. After all, who needs teachers/school administrators, college professors, paralegals, librarians, editors, public relations/communications professionals, city planners, architects,.... |
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Apr 24, 2012 8:42:04 GMT -5
I'm in the process of finishing up my AS degree. Even the most basic of receptionist jobs are now using that as the bare minimum education they will look at. The local CC won't hire you unless you have at least an AS/AA, and I am seeing it more and more in the advertisements for jobs. I started working for the Accounting dept of a CC about 4 years ago with no AS/AA to my name. My current position and my supervisor's position still does not require one. |
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 24, 2012 8:43:02 GMT -5
www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-57325132/25-college-majors-with-the-highest-unemployment-rates/I know everyone likes to bash English majors but if you read the list #5 (tie) Military technologies; educational psychology 10.9%, #6 is Architecture 10.6%, #10 (tie) Visual & performing arts; engineering & industrial management 9.2%, #11. Engineering & industrial management 9.2% There are lots of STEM majors included and not just at the bottom of the list.  I couldn't find the list that includes underemployment, in the 2 minute Google search I did , but the one I read that also included underemployment had Law degree listed in the top part.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 8:43:48 GMT -5
I think we did this discussion - whether or not you can be successful without a degree or something like that. Could you get your same job today without a degree or any accounting education? A 19-year old friend of mine just did. I'm not meaning to start any kind of new discussion. I just know a lot of people, including Millenials, who are doing just fine without a 4 yr degree. I don't think there's anything wrong with getting a 4 yr degree if it is most likely to pay off as an investment. But I think that the belief that everyone must have them unless they want to sling hash for a living is not true. 1. that is becoming the exception nowadays rather than the rule 2. there is a strong possibility that they will need to obtain a degree to get promoted or keep their job |
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Apr 24, 2012 8:48:02 GMT -5
 Swamp Like Tskeeter said, there is a market for the creative writing majors to translate engineer-speak into digestible English  Yes, they're called technical writers. But, they do need to become familiar with what they're writing about. Particularly when they're writing the help files |
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kimber45
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Post by kimber45 on Apr 24, 2012 8:48:35 GMT -5
DS graduated in 2009 with a BS in Business Administration, it took him until this February to finally get a job where it payed off
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 9:05:13 GMT -5
A guy in my church, in his 50s, graduated from the U. of Toronto with a degree in Middle English. Or it may have been Old English. Equally unmarketable. A bank decided if he was smart enough to learn that he could learn the commercial loan business, which he did very well. He retired recently and is now one of the top givers in our church. (I'm the Financial Secretary so I know.)
Unfortunately, that rarely happens anymore. You want to work in commercial lending? You better have a degree in finance, preferably a fancy MBA. It's unfortunate because, despite being a Math major, I think that you need people who use both halves of the brain. When there are piles of MBAs, employers don't want to bother training English majors.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 9:25:21 GMT -5
"and none of that impacts my original premise... That an engineering degree will I've her many ore options, including teaching, than a teaching degree alone would offer... " I would love to know what these more options are speaking as a holder of two engineering degrees. I just spoke on the phone last night to a fellow Purdue engineering grad who is now a high school math teacher because of the dearth of jobs in his area "  Where are these options hmm... when the person you are talking about is doing exactly what i was suggesting... he had the OPTION of being a math teacher... didn't he ?? You always CAN underemploy. It is much more difficult, particularly in the current market, to over-employ... So if you 'over'-prepare... you will always have more options than if you 'under'-prepare... |
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Apr 24, 2012 9:26:20 GMT -5
it's not always that simple. It is a tough employment market still. My DS has an engineering degree, although it is in aeronautical engineering. And he has been unable to find work in his field, even with a good GPA from a prestigious school. That's pretty easy to recover from. I graduated with an engineering degree just as the cold war ended and tens of thousands of engineers were getting laid off. I got a free ride for a master's in math, switched to the statistics department (also getting paid to go to school) got a master's in statistics and have been employed ever since. Not exactly my dream, but a good little living. |
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 24, 2012 9:33:25 GMT -5
it's not always that simple. It is a tough employment market still. My DS has an engineering degree, although it is in aeronautical engineering. And he has been unable to find work in his field, even with a good GPA from a prestigious school. That's pretty easy to recover from. I graduated with an engineering degree just as the cold war ended and tens of thousands of engineers were getting laid off. I got a free ride for a master's in math, switched to the statistics department (also getting paid to go to school) got a master's in statistics and have been employed ever since. Not exactly my dream, but a good little living. Well on this board everyone kid gets a free ride for any degree they want but IRL I know no one who gets a total free ride these days to college. So what you are saying is that the engineering degreed people whould pay $30-$50K for another degree in the hopes that it will pay off. That sounds like a whole lot of extra money on a hope. If it doens't work out they will have a whole lot of loans to pay off with that job at Starbucks. Fulll disclosure DH is an civil engineer with a masters. But he makes just about what people on this board constantly post a undergrad student will make as an intern. |
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 24, 2012 9:40:13 GMT -5
But he makes just about what people on this board constantly post a undergrad student will make as an internI bet your DH had a public school education.
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