Death Panels Are Only The Begining

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

This kind of crap makes me sick to my stomach. It definitely makes me ashamed to be an American.

The kind of crap that makes me sick is forcing someone to work for the benefit of someone else under the threat of jail. In case you dont know, slavery is outlawed.

[Angel!]

Jan 21, 2011 13:59:30 GMT -5 Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ said:

Yes...and no. As one earns more income, they continue to pay. An individual earning $100,000 pays more than someone who makes $30,000. In that respect it can be said that this is a wealth redistribution program.

True, I could see how one could say it redistributes wealth. But, it doesn't do it in the way most people would mean when talking about redistributing wealth - take from the wealthy & give to the poor (food stamps, welfare, EITC, etc). This takes an equal % of income from everyone & everyone gets the same benefits at retirement regardless of how much they earned or saved over their lifetime. It has nothing to do with whether or not you have saved enough to pay future insurance premiums as ugonow said.

[floridayankee]

Jan 21, 2011 13:33:09 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Esmin Green was involuntarily admitted to the psychiatric emergency department of Kings County Hospital Center on June 18 for what the hospital describes as "agitation and psychosis."

Upon her admission, Green waited nearly 24 hours for treatment, said the civil liberties union, which was among the groups filing suit against the facility last year seeking improved conditions for patients.

Hmmmm....this leaves me wondering why the left is crying for government to take over our health care.

Kings County Hospital Center is a government run wonder operated by the New York City Health and Hospitals Corporation (HHC). HHC was established by NY legislature in '69 to run New York City's public hospitals.

Besides...the story is 2.5 years old not to mention only one body not "bodies". This would tell me that this is an exception to the norm and a poor attempt to side step the question.....When was the last time you had to step over bodies of uninsured people?

[Angel!]

Jan 21, 2011 14:03:19 GMT -5 Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ said:

This kind of crap makes me sick to my stomach. It definitely makes me ashamed to be an American.

The kind of crap that makes me sick is forcing someone to work for the benefit of someone else under the threat of jail. In case you dont know, slavery is outlawed.

You aren't actually being forced to work - like a slave. But, if you do work, then you have to pay your share for certain programs. You can argue the fairness of it, but it isn't really akin to slavery.

[Tennesseer]

Jan 21, 2011 14:15:21 GMT -5 floridayankee said:

Jan 21, 2011 13:33:09 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Esmin Green was involuntarily admitted to the psychiatric emergency department of Kings County Hospital Center on June 18 for what the hospital describes as "agitation and psychosis."

Upon her admission, Green waited nearly 24 hours for treatment, said the civil liberties union, which was among the groups filing suit against the facility last year seeking improved conditions for patients.

Hmmmm....this leaves me wondering why the left is crying for government to take over our health care.

Kings County Hospital Center is a government run wonder operated by the New York City Health and Hospitals Corporation (HHC). HHC was established by NY legislature in '69 to run New York City's public hospitals.

Besides...the story is 2.5 years old not to mention only one body not "bodies". This would tell me that this is an exception to the norm and a poor attempt to side step the question.....When was the last time you had to step over bodies of uninsured people?

Woman dies in ER lobby as 911 refuses to help
LOS ANGELES — A woman who lay bleeding on the emergency room floor of a troubled inner-city hospital died after 911 dispatchers refused to contact paramedics or an ambulance to take her to another facility, newly released tapes of the emergency calls reveal.

Edith Isabel Rodriguez, 43, died of a perforated bowel on May 9 at Martin Luther King Jr.-Harbor Hospital. Her death was ruled accidental by the Los Angeles County coroner’s office.

Relatives said Rodriguez was bleeding from the mouth and writhing in pain for 45 minutes while she was at a hospital waiting area. Experts have said she could have survived had she been treated early enough.

County and state authorities are now investigating Rodriguez’s death. Relatives reported she died as police were wheeling her out of the hospital after the officers they had asked to help Rodriguez arrested her instead on a parole violation. Sheriff’s Department spokesman Duane Allen said Wednesday that the investigation is ongoing.

In the recordings of two 911 calls that day, first obtained by the Los Angeles Times under a California Public Records Act request, callers pleaded for help for Rodriguez but were referred to hospital staff instead.

“I’m in the emergency room. My wife is dying and the nurses don’t want to help her out,” Rodriguez’s boyfriend, Jose Prado, is heard saying in Spanish through an interpreter on the tapes.

“What’s wrong with her?” a female dispatcher asked.

“She’s vomiting blood,” Prado said.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19207050/ns/health-health_care/

And this one is from 2007.

The point is there are dead bodies in the waiting room.

[Angel!]

Jan 21, 2011 14:15:21 GMT -5 floridayankee said:

Hmmmm....this leaves me wondering why the left is crying for government to take over our health care.

I can't speak for much of the left because I am really not that far left-leaning, but I'll answer since I seem to be one of the few that is for healthcare reform. I don't want the govt. to take over healthcare, I just want the govt to provide better regulation for health insurance & this bill does that. It gives the public more insurance options & makes it so that can't be turned down or have treatment for pre-existing conditions refused. This bill also makes insurance more affordable for low-income families.

This could be accomplished with a simpler bill, but I don't see anybody trying to do that or even willing to see that there are things in this bill that are good & it has some regulations in it that are needed. I don't actually want a govt run insurance plan & don't feel the need for a public option, but for me the good things in this bill outweigh the parts that I dislike. More regulation in this industry is a good thing & will help a lot of people.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

True, I could see how one could say it redistributes wealth. But, it doesn't do it in the way most people would mean when talking about redistributing wealth - take from the wealthy & give to the poor (food stamps, welfare, EITC, etc).

Yeah, I agree with you, I was splitting hairs.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

You aren't actually being forced to work - like a slave. But, if you do work, then you have to pay your share for certain programs. You can argue the fairness of it, but it isn't really akin to slavery.


I need to work to support myself.
You are mincing words, and making clever use of language, and being intellectually dishonest.
Extricating money from one person for the sole benefit of another is nothing more than slavery.

[floridayankee]

Jan 21, 2011 13:59:20 GMT -5 Shirina said:

This kind of crap makes me sick to my stomach. It definitely makes me ashamed to be an American.

Then ignore it and look for things that make you proud to be an American. My area has several all volunteer free clinics that will provide basic services as well as assist those in need with applications to more extensive programs at the state level.

Also, and I know there's a lot of Wally World haters out there, ever since they started their $4 prescription thing, many pharmacies have followed suit. Some chains are also offering free meds for diabetes and some are offering free antibiotics. Sure, there is a long way to go, but it a start of real, free market solutions at work.

The point is there are dead bodies in the waiting room.

And it snowed in my area almost 40 years ago and yet I don't feel the need to load up on shovels, snowsuits and snowman building material.

My point is there is always an exception for even the most unlikely events. No need to declare "an emergency" over a rare event.

And...you never answered the question. When was the last time you had to step over bodies of uninsured people in the waiting room?

[jkapp]

>>and everything in the OP link was a supposition of what they 'thought' it 'meant' for the future.... no fact... no grounding in reality.<<

Just like the CBO's cost estimates for the bill...

>>One nice thing about this bill is that it allows the govt to spell out stuff that must be covered by insurance companies. There will be more consistency between insurance plans, so you won't suddenly discover your plan doesn't cover a hospitalization.<<

And watch the premiums SKYROCKET!!! Hurray for paying more!

>>This kind of crap makes me sick to my stomach. It definitely makes me ashamed to be an American.<<

More pure emotional attacks from the bleeding hearts who LOVE to spend EVERYONE ELSE'S money to "help" people but don't actually expect them to lift a finger personally (or take money out of their own wallet) to do any helping. Yeah, a real humanitarian when you don't care about stealing money from responsible, hard working people to give the irresponsible, unappreciative, "gimme" crowd.

[Angel!]

You are mincing words, and making clever use of language, and being intellectually dishonest.

Fair enough, but I think it is funny you are spending so much time arguing small details with me while letting some of the ridiculous claims by ugonow slide by without comment.

[jkapp]

Jan 21, 2011 14:16:14 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Jan 21, 2011 14:03:19 GMT -5 Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ said:

This kind of crap makes me sick to my stomach. It definitely makes me ashamed to be an American.

The kind of crap that makes me sick is forcing someone to work for the benefit of someone else under the threat of jail. In case you dont know, slavery is outlawed.

You aren't actually being forced to work - like a slave. But, if you do work, then you have to pay your share for certain programs. You can argue the fairness of it, but it isn't really akin to slavery.

So punish responsibility and hard work and reward irresponsibility and sloth...yep, sounds like the trumpet sound of the liberal left to me.

[burnsattornincan]

Unlimited access to health care, at any time and any cost, is a disaster.

Well it was working fairly well until we started getting inundated with third world refugees and immigrants. They have flooded clinics in high concentrated areas such as Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. They go there for any little ailment and of course bring their rug rats for checkups several times a year. The clinics pull in the dough from the federal government so its a great source of business for them. The problem is that when a real Canadian wants to go there they'll have to wait hours in line behind all these refugees and immigrants. It is mind boggling why we have allowed this to happen.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

...it's sadly interesting that there are none so blind as those who will not see...

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

...but thanks for trying, ugo and SF...

[Angel!]

And watch the premiums SKYROCKET!!! Hurray for paying more!

I don't think it will be as extreme as people seem to think because there are other factors balancing this. The bill requires a high percentages of premiums be used for actually medical expenses, forcing the lowering of administrative & overhead costs that we will be paying for. The healthy that previously didn't bother to pay for insurance will be added to the pool. The uninsured that previously used the ER as their entire health plan will now have access to preventative maintance & non emergency medical care, which will lower overall medical costs.

I do wish the bill didn't limit high deductable plans though, I think that is a big mistake.

[deziloooooo]

Jan 21, 2011 13:16:27 GMT -5 Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ said:

I don't know if you are referring to me, but I don't blindly think this will save the country

Lighten up, will you. The federal govt has yet to run anything efficiently and/or been able to control costs. The fed govt is the problem. Unlimited access to health care, at any time and any cost, is a disaster.

Overall, our Military actions have seemed to go well, "man to the Moon", overall the space program...telescope ...supporting disease prevention, innoculations...high ways, and on and on..Great lakes shipping, very big thing, most americans don't even think about it, our fisheries, power grids, so much the federal is involved in and yet so much talk about doing away as if possible...yes problems but overall....I'm happy, glad most there, seem to just take thm for granted and if disappeared, I am sure I would be upset and yelling and I firmly believe, so many , say here, who are complaining all the time, same thing, miss then, and more importantly , scream the loudest if they went missing.

What was that you said, didn't hear you , a little louder please, my hearing at times, sorry.
OK got it. You said you wouldn't?

I don't believe you ;D

[floridayankee]

Jan 21, 2011 14:48:59 GMT -5 Angel! said:

And watch the premiums SKYROCKET!!! Hurray for paying more!

I don't think it will be as extreme as people seem to think because there are other factors balancing this. The bill requires a high percentages of premiums be used for actually medical expenses, forcing the lowering of administrative & overhead costs that we will be paying for. The healthy that previously didn't bother to pay for insurance will be added to the pool. The uninsured that previously used the ER as their entire health plan will now have access to preventative maintance & non emergency medical care, which will lower overall medical costs.

The individual mandate hasn't work to lower overall costs in MA, why would it work at the federal level?
Romneycare's Fatal Flaw

[Loopdilou]

Here's what I don't get... in order for capitalism to work there has to be inequitable income distribution - some people will have to earn crap wages for other people to be able to purchase goods at an affordable price for their level of income. It's just how it works and that will never change. So why are we punishing them for playing a vital role in our economy? These are people that will NEVER BE ABLE TO AFFORD PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE. And I'm not even just talking about those in poverty, I'm referring to the 30 million middle class Americans who will NEVER BE ABLE TO AFFORD PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE. The fundamental difference between a democrats belief and a republicans belief is that republicans, who are against measures that would make health insurance affordable to these people and even more against just providing a system by which we can all have health insurance, is that democrats actually understand that in order for capitalism to work - there will always be HAVE NOTS and democrats furthermore believe that these HAVE NOTS don't deserve not to have some BASIC SERVICES, like health care. I'm pretty sure Republicans are just delusional and think we should just shoot the working poor, who provide the service base for large sections of our economy, and replace them with robots.

But then again.. I think the health care reform mandate section is crap and we should just have universal health care. So what do I know?

[Loopdilou]

You guys spend all your time lumping the 30 million working poor in with people who abuse the system. That's what's so messed up about your attitudes.

Nobody wants to reward sloth.. people who are slothful piss me off just as much as the next guy - even more, because they give Republicans an excuse to dismantle the whole fucking system!

Did I mention I'm in a bad mood today?

[jkapp]

Jan 21, 2011 16:27:55 GMT -5 Loopdilou said:

Here's what I don't get... in order for capitalism to work there has to be inequitable income distribution - some people will have to earn crap wages for other people to be able to purchase goods at an affordable price for their level of income. It's just how it works and that will never change. So why are we punishing them for playing a vital role in our economy? These are people that will NEVER BE ABLE TO AFFORD PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE. And I'm not even just talking about those in poverty, I'm referring to the 30 million middle class Americans who will NEVER BE ABLE TO AFFORD PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE. The fundamental difference between a democrats belief and a republicans belief is that republicans, who are against measures that would make health insurance affordable to these people and even more against just providing a system by which we can all have health insurance, is that democrats actually understand that in order for capitalism to work - there will always be HAVE NOTS and democrats furthermore believe that these HAVE NOTS don't deserve not to have some BASIC SERVICES, like health care. I'm pretty sure Republicans are just delusional and think we should just shoot the working poor, who provide the service base for large sections of our economy, and replace them with robots.

But then again.. I think the health care reform mandate section is crap and we should just have universal health care. So what do I know?

Yet Dems keep calling for higher wages and more entitlements...so they want the poor to earn more yet still get their entitlements off the backs of the other workers.

This bill gives free health insurance to the poor - subsidized premiums paid for by other workers. So someone making $40k has to pay for their own insurance AND the insurance for the "poor." All the while the poor are sucking down booze, eating crap food, and smoking cigarettes - leading unhealthy lifestyles that will suck up more health dollars. But why should they care - it's not their money paying for this expensive healthcare, right?

And just because they have insurance does not mean they won't still use the ER as their main healthcare facility. I'm not sure why the advocates for this bill keep saying that. For some reason they think just because this bill passed that people will miraculously make healthier choices, see the doctor more (take their doctor's advice), and choose the less expensive healthcare options. It must be nice to live in such euphoric dimentia...

[Loopdilou]

I don't call for higher wages, personally.. I understand how capitalism works. Entitlements? That's iffy.. Yes, health care. Yes, food stamps. Yes, subsidized (to an extent) housing. To me these are the only three things that everyone should have. Food, housing, health care. Beyond that? I'm open to negotiation.

I think our tax system is broken, our health insurance industry is insane, and I think something had to be done by someone and the Republican Party is really good at sitting on their hands while hard working people suffer. And believe it or not - even if it is the conservative mantra - hard work DOES NOT equal wealth and poor DOES NOT equal "sucking down booze, eating crap food, and smoking cigarettes" (I usually see that of upper middle class, not lower).

[Angel!]

Jan 21, 2011 16:18:28 GMT -5 floridayankee said:

The individual mandate hasn't work to lower overall costs in MA, why would it work at the federal level?
Romneycare's Fatal Flaw

The two biggest problems in MA are the ability to start & stop coverage a few months at a time & that they don't allow high deductable plans. I believe this bill addresses the issue of starting & stopping coverage, but would have to look it up. The problem of the high deductable plans not being offered is a problem in this bill as well.

Just did a search on esurance for kicks. I could get a plan in MA for $260/month. I could get a similar plan (similar deductable, copays, coverage, coinsurance, etc) in CO for $290/month. MA is not unreasonably expensive for the type of insurance offered. The problem is that the $260/month was the cheapest plan they offered. In CO I could get plans as low as $38/month if I am ok with a 10K deductable. This is why I wish they would allow high deductable plans.

The other big difference, in CO they can refuse to insure me at all if I have a pre-existing condition, but in MA they still have to insure me.

[burnsattornincan]

Did I mention I'm in a bad mood today?

No, but good to know.

[Deleted]

One thing I don't get-- question to the ones that posted articles about dead people in the ER. Both of those people were in bad shape and needed ER care right away. Is there some reason that you would believe that having 30 million or however many more people on insurance will make the ERs less crowded with emergencies? Maybe where YOU live, but here in Tucson our ERs will continue to overcrowded with illegals there for general care, street people that do not do things like make appointments, and plain old emergencies. Millions more people with insurance not having to worry about paying for ER care is unlikely to clear the ERs. Take my family. Not one of us has insurance. We have had several scary things that someone would have gone to the ER for, but we do not do that because we will have to pay for it and we can't afford it. Fortunately we have recovered from those scary things without medical care. I would be more likely to use the ER at some point WITH insurance than without. I really do not see how anyone thinks ERs will get better with 30 million more people insured.
I understand some of the arguments about uninsured people, but not this particular one.

[Loopdilou]

Maybe you're not familiar with the actual law that was passed, but part of that problem is being dealt with by increasing funding (which has already started) to community health clinics. By providing locations OTHER THAN the ER for non-emergency visits, the ER can actually be used for emergencies.

I don't know what your scary things were - but my scary things that warranted ER visits were broken limbs and heavily bleeding wounds. The one I wish I didn't have to go to the ER for was the kidney stone.. but it's the only real way to get massive amounts of heavy drugs quickly

[Loopdilou]

PS - My community, that has a lot of undocumented immigrants, has multiple community health clinics and a VERY quiet ER

[steff]

My last trip to the ER was because of my arm going completely numb and with a family history of heart attacks, I wasn't going to wait until I could make a dr's appt. Turns out it was a pinched nerve in my neck and I could have waited. Considering the hospital I went to is the main county hospital and covers the heavily hispanic area too, the ER was VERY quiet and VERY empty. Just me and 2 other folks (both white if it matters).

Even with insurance, our payout on it was over $1,000. not including all the MRI's, xrays, and other dr's I ended up having to see for hte pinched nerve. I had to prepay my 20% of the nerve test before they would do it and it was NOT cheap.

[deziloooooo]

Jan 21, 2011 18:19:07 GMT -5 @krickitt said:

One thing I don't get-- question to the ones that posted articles about dead people in the ER. Both of those people were in bad shape and needed ER care right away. Is there some reason that you would believe that having 30 million or however many more people on insurance will make the ERs less crowded with emergencies? Maybe where YOU live, but here in Tucson our ERs will continue to overcrowded with illegals there for general care, street people that do not do things like make appointments, and plain old emergencies. Millions more people with insurance not having to worry about paying for ER care is unlikely to clear the ERs. Take my family. Not one of us has insurance. We have had several scary things that someone would have gone to the ER for, but we do not do that because we will have to pay for it and we can't afford it. Fortunately we have recovered from those scary things without medical care. I would be more likely to use the ER at some point WITH insurance than without. I really do not see how anyone thinks ERs will get better with 30 million more people insured.
I understand some of the arguments about uninsured people, but not this particular one.

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believe that having 30 million or however many more people on insurance will make the ERs less crowded with emergencies?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Krickett..Possible in AZ with the large amount of Illegals you say you have there, and i believe , and still there say in 2014 when the health care will be fully up and running...you still may have busy ER's..the illegals aren't covered.
However , for the rest of us, and you too, you will be covered, either paying your fair share if qualified financially or subsidized , either way your covered, have your own private Doctor and use the Emergency room as it is meant for, for emergencies. Check ups, Physicals, follow up care , normal illnesses , you don't have to decided not to get care, or figure if have to go for grand babies for example, sell , hock , figure out where $ coming from, just make a appointment , hang around waiting room as most of us do, and just go and get care and hopefully if something chronic, be seen in follow up and constant monitoring, blood tests and other tests if needed so it is cured or controlled as it should be so you feel better, live better and hopefully live heather and longer.
Tell me the down side of that?

[jkapp]

Jan 21, 2011 18:59:29 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Jan 21, 2011 18:19:07 GMT -5 @krickitt said:

One thing I don't get-- question to the ones that posted articles about dead people in the ER. Both of those people were in bad shape and needed ER care right away. Is there some reason that you would believe that having 30 million or however many more people on insurance will make the ERs less crowded with emergencies? Maybe where YOU live, but here in Tucson our ERs will continue to overcrowded with illegals there for general care, street people that do not do things like make appointments, and plain old emergencies. Millions more people with insurance not having to worry about paying for ER care is unlikely to clear the ERs. Take my family. Not one of us has insurance. We have had several scary things that someone would have gone to the ER for, but we do not do that because we will have to pay for it and we can't afford it. Fortunately we have recovered from those scary things without medical care. I would be more likely to use the ER at some point WITH insurance than without. I really do not see how anyone thinks ERs will get better with 30 million more people insured.
I understand some of the arguments about uninsured people, but not this particular one.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
believe that having 30 million or however many more people on insurance will make the ERs less crowded with emergencies?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Krickett..Possible in AZ with the large amount of Illegals you say you have there, and i believe , and still there say in 2014 when the health care will be fully up and running...you still may have busy ER's..the illegals aren't covered.
However , for the rest of us, and you too, you will be covered, either paying your fair share if qualified financially or subsidized , either way your covered, have your own private Doctor and use the Emergency room as it is meant for, for emergencies. Check ups, Physicals, follow up care , normal illnesses , you don't have to decided not to get care, or figure if have to go for grand babies for example, sell , hock , figure out where $ coming from, just make a appointment , hang around waiting room as most of us do, and just go and get care and hopefully if something chronic, be seen in follow up and constant monitoring, blood tests and other tests if needed so it is cured or controlled as it should be so you feel better, live better and hopefully live heather and longer.
Tell me the down side of that?

Where are all the doctors, nurses, hospitals, etc going to magically appear to handle 30+ million more people? Making a doctor's appointment will be 12 months or more out...so how will anyone get the tests, treatments, etc to feel better, live better and live healthier longer?