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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2011 0:48:55 GMT -5
I've had these moments myself. Where you get really frustrated because you look around you and everyone seems to have it easier and nicer than you. The key is how you to react to these times. Does your DW express her frustration and then move on or does she engage in unhealthy behaviors (spending more than you can afford?)?
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suziq38
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Post by suziq38 on Jan 17, 2011 1:06:31 GMT -5
Sorry Cawiau, But your wifey sounds a bit spoiled. Who is to blame? Her parents for indulging in her, and you for choosing her. After all, it took you 5 years to decide that she, indeed was "the one." This is the woman you picked, the beautiful one, with the nice clothes, bags, and shoes. The impeccable grooming. The nice hairstyles, etc. Someone has to pay for all of that beauty, and it might as well be you. Her parents used to help pay for it, but with your marriage, you are it.
Her mom thanked her lucky stars that she doesn't have to pay for her any longer. She paid for her long enough.
You are a really nice guy, and she is indeed worth every penny, but she possibly is going to be unhappy all of her life. Whether you two made $100K or $200K, she may not be happy.
I am glad that you made her write everything down. Reality never hurt "Cinderella."
You are her "prince," but she just doesn't see it that way right now, as she wants what she wants (material things).
Maybe you can get her mom to take over the student loan of hers buy writing a check to the SL company every month and mailing it to you.
Maybe that might help for now.
I have a feeling that even if MIL did that for her, she would find something else that she wants to buy. She would go out and get the little cute Mini Cooper that she wanted. After that, she would go out and buy a designer bag or shoes and not tell you.
She is who she is.
My friend is a person like your wife. She complains about everything, and gets everything. If it wasn't the Mercedes, it was a bigger house. Clothes galore, CC's not a problem. They have had to claim bankruptcy TWICE. If she is unhappy, she just complains so much that her DH gives in. Also, she withholds sex, LOL.
The latest is that she wants to buy a new platinum and diamond wedding ring set. They can't even afford to pay their bills and will never pay off their home at this rate.
His choice for the last 30 years.
They are still married, but almost bankrupt again.
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suziq38
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Post by suziq38 on Jan 17, 2011 1:15:11 GMT -5
Not much, for the amount of education. I'm ABD in a doctorate of PH and probably won't see my salary go up much further.In fact, I'll likely make more money using the doctorate along with my current education (basic research) than in a regular PH position, but this is because my basic science background gives me some advantages that PH does not.
My DD has a BS in Public Health. She graduated in 2007, and it was difficult for her to find a decent paying job. I finally told her to consider her Master's in Nursing, rather than PH, or become a Nurse Practitioner.
She found a good job at a great hospital and is considering getting her NP degree.
PH does not pay much, and I am not sure of the potential to make more money later.
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TrixAre4Kids
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Post by TrixAre4Kids on Jan 17, 2011 1:58:33 GMT -5
Like Suziq, I have a friend with a long history of 'I deserve it'. She worked 30 years for a company with a 'guaranteed pension'. At 30 years she felt she had earned that full pension and 'deserved' to retire. I suggested she do a pre-retirement 'trial run' and try living on $2000 (her pension annuity) for a month or two. See if she could swing it. Well, surprise suprise she couldn't do it. Nor was she concerned she only had 35k in her other retirement accounts. Or that her financial advisor told her she couldn't afford to retire yet. Well that deserving retired gal is living with her brother and father now. And not very happy. I commend you for trying to educate your wife in money matters. I think you have your work cut out for you. It takes 2x as long to break a habit as it does to establish one. Means you're looking at the next 30 years or so, LOL. I hope her come to Jesus moment comes sooner than that
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2011 8:31:43 GMT -5
I see where your wife is coming from. You guys and DH and I are around the same age. I don't come from a well-to-do family, but yes, my mom pretty much told me that school would be my ticket to a good life with money. She didn't count on me changing my career path and meeting DH, so things changed a bit. After college I struggled quite a bit, and I was floored by the fact that I couldn't get a decent job even though I had a college degree. Today I'm working for a good company that will pay for my Master's degree. I'm not earning much money right now, but it's way more than I earned at my previous jobs. We're not rich, but we have a roof over our heads, jobs, some nice toys, and a good amoun of savings. I also learned that most people who use the dessert rationale are in piles of consumer debt. We have none.
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wodehouse
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Post by wodehouse on Jan 17, 2011 8:37:11 GMT -5
I'm thinking we all deserve such nice things. Aren't we all nice people? But it's the entitlement mentality...that "I'm entitled to this" view without regard to the big picture and who has to pay for all the entitlements. Welcome to the modern-day USA.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Jan 17, 2011 9:01:21 GMT -5
Is your wife feeling better today now that she has had a little time to think things through? I know it can be hard when your illusions fall away. Her meltdown could either be her coming to the realization that her assumptions were wrong or it could just be the spoiled fit that people are saying it was. I am hoping for your sake that she just realized that a lot of her assumptions were wrong and that it hit her hard.
I know I had a couple moments like that in college when I realized that just being in college didn't give me the direction in life that I had expected. My parents had always told me to go to college, but once I was there I had a few "what now?" moments. I could see if she had been told over and over to do certain things and then realized that they didn't work, it could be a real shock.
As to what we deserve - we deserve things like dignity and the respect shown by fellow human beings. Deserve doesn't really apply to objects, those are things we buy and not deserve.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Jan 17, 2011 10:41:02 GMT -5
Tell her welcome to the middle class. Everything you get comes at the expense of something else. You can afford some luxuries, but not every luxury. Getting everything you "deserve" is great....until the bill comes in.
You guys are young....plenty of time to get the things you "deserve".
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 17, 2011 10:57:16 GMT -5
I've had those moments. I rationally and logically know it is much better to save our money than to have certain things, but sometimes it's hard to look around and feel like I am still living like a college student and I am 27.
My parents and grandparents all owned homes at my age. They did it with HS diplomas and in my grandfather's case, not even a HS education. Logically I know that it's a lot harder now for me to get where they were in their 20's and takes a lot more effort, but it can be frustrating to hear your entire life how college and hard work are your keys to success but you feel like really all it has done is afford you the ability to keep running in place.
I know I am better off than a lot of people and I do like looking at my savings grow vs credit card bills. But sometimes it's hard to sit around preparing for a rainy day or my retirement.
DH knows that when I rant like that I don't mean let's blow all our savings and live paycheck to paycheck. He knows that I know we are better off than a lot of people we know despite making less than they are and having less stuff.
It's just sometimes frustrating, especially when looking at high ticket items like new furntiure or in your case a new apartment. It seems like EVERYTHING is out of your price range unless you want to be one of those people crying on the news in a few years.
I get over it and keep going. I appreciate that my husband doesn't try to brow beat me or logic me whenever I vent about how expensive a new couch is (cause this time around I don't want a dorm room POS) and that I am not going to go out and finance one in the next five minutes. I'm just bitching because sometimes I get burned out having to constantly research, it'd be nice to just not think and get the damn couch once and awhile.
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suziq38
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Post by suziq38 on Jan 17, 2011 11:03:06 GMT -5
cawiau - I would be EXTEMELY CAREFUL not to take too much of this dog piling of your wife here to heart! This is so true.
You are already married, and have made a commitment together. You love each other.
The problem is that most likely, she will not change. I know that some people do change, I was one, LOL. I was a "spender."
On the other hand, I never said that "I deserve better," or bought designer anything. I never asked my Mom for money to buy things that I could not afford that were considered frivolous to most.
You have to decide if this marriage is a "keeper." If it is a keeper, then see if she can go through a budgeting university similar to Dave Ramsey's. If she refuses and refuses all help with learning how to abstain from spending, you have a huge problem.
She either has to mature and stop the spending nonsense, or you two will always have money conflicts and unnecessary bills.
You may not be able to afford a house in the future because most of the down payment money will be gone to restaurants, expensive foods, cars, vacations, clothing, designer whatever, and other unnecessary spending.
I could see how she is a nice person in every other way. I could see how you thought that you knew her when you spent 5 years dating her. I am not sure if you comingled assets and knew the full scope of her spending habits or how her $700.00 a month SL would take a huge bite in your finances before the wedding.
That is a lot, but still doable if she were frugal in every other way. The problem is, she is not.
If you decide to stay with her, just love her as she is. See if she will agree to strict budgeting rules.
I am really bad, because I don't think that she will. My guess is that it will be more of the same, agreeing that something needs to be done, but not doing anything.
Why?? In my 28 years of marriage, I have met too many like her. None of them have changed.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jan 17, 2011 11:05:19 GMT -5
Cawiau, I have no idea how you put up with her crap. We all have woe is me moments, but geez louise, your wife is an unending pit of neediness.
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upstatemom
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Post by upstatemom on Jan 17, 2011 11:07:10 GMT -5
I cried once over a house we couldn't afford to buy. DH took me to lunch and explained the finances. And I cried. At the restaurant. We still talk about it. But the good news is that I am SO glad he made me see reality. We saved money for 6 years and then paid cash for our house (which is WAY better than that other other house). Best cry ever!! Good for you, cash for a house is a huge accomplishment. Glad to hear that it was worth the wait.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 17, 2011 11:12:51 GMT -5
There's a history of this not a one off.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2011 11:21:07 GMT -5
Cawiau, I don’t remember your situation exactly, but I can understand your wife’s frustration. I had that too, when I was her age. It wasn’t so much that I thought I deserved it. I just couldn’t understand why we couldn’t afford to save and have the things I thought of as “normal” for our income level. I looked around and couldn’t figure out how other people were doing it (still not sure). I looked at my dad’s life and didn’t think we would ever get there. It all just seemed insurmountable. Kind of like we should just give up, go into debt, and enjoy our lives, because we were never going to get to a secure place where all the bills were paid, savings was on target, and we had extra to do things. It took a couple of years to get past that point, but it did happen (much faster than we expected). Incomes went up, expenses went down, and now we can afford some of the things we want.
Setting things up in your 20’s is difficult. Generally you are making the less money than you will at any other point in your career, but you have to find a way to get a work wardrobe, transportation, housing…. Later things will be easier (with the exception of when kids enter the picture), because you will have stuff in place and can replace them on your own timeline.
Good luck.
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suziq38
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Post by suziq38 on Jan 17, 2011 11:27:17 GMT -5
I just think that after looking for an apartment and wanting an Mini Cooper, whining to you with real tears is just plain selfish and rude.
My son was rendered blind at the age of 14 after a childhood accident. I cried, but I thanked God that he was still alive after the accident.
I never cried over not getting material things like an apartment or a car.
We are in the middle of one of the worst recessions in decades.
It has been really tough for many.
In order to make more money, you have to pursue a very directive degree that makes money NOW during this recession.
These Public Health jobs are kind of like social work, and the jobs are few and low paying right now.
When times are better, the jobs will pay more. Maybe, maybe not.
If she wants to get paid more, she may have to do something different that pays more, plain and simple.
I am not sure I would be living in the middle of NYC in a HCOLA with an income of less than $100K. It would be difficult to find nice, affordable places to live.
On the other hand, I am sure that if you were to move outside of the city, jobs would be harder to come by.
It sounds like you want to make it work, and you can. It is just that she will have to make more adjustments than she wants to.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 17, 2011 11:32:02 GMT -5
It isn't easy. I am a "have not" marrying a "have." I do okay but am in no way the multi millionaire that DF is. My DD is going to have to get SL's for her extra 2 years of school and work. His DD is getting her expensive apt in the city she is moving to paid for by DF because her starting salary doesn't make enough to pay for this area she(and he)want her to live in. It's VERY HARD for me to not want to sacrifice my financial well being to help out DD financially. I'm going to TRY to keep resentment out of my life.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2011 11:35:53 GMT -5
I always use the phrase "I deserve it" in a joking sense when I'm about to indulge in something I shouldn't...like a huge bowl of ice cream. ha.
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telephus44
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Post by telephus44 on Jan 17, 2011 12:00:51 GMT -5
cawiau, I think your problem is with your wife's internal beliefs about money. She does believe that because she did all thard hard work and followed the right path that she deserves these things. And even if she logically understands that you don't make enough money to afford them, and that you need to save money, she still has an inner core belief that she did her part of the bargain and she deserves this stuff.
You can see it all the time with other people and situations - I went to a prestigous law school, so I should be making big money, etc. As society, we have these unspoken expectations - do X and you'll get Y. If you work hard and go to school, then you will have material success. If you buy a house, you are building wealth.
I forget which guru called them "money scripts" but they are basically your fundamental, often unconscious beliefs about money. She doesn't need to see a budget written in black and white, or have a carrot dangled over her head, or work in a soup kitchen - she needs to work on changing this belief that because she worked hard and has advanced degrees, she deserves material success. And honestly, I'm not sure how you can make someone do that.
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suziq38
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Post by suziq38 on Jan 17, 2011 12:24:49 GMT -5
.....she needs to work on changing this belief that because she worked hard and has advanced degrees, she deserves material success. And honestly, I'm not sure how you can make someone do that.
Well said. I wouldn't know how to get a person to see that. They have to already understand or come to understand this on their own.
Your wife is lucky to have found a decent paying job in PH. Our DD could not, so she had to change her career desires and goals a bit in order to earn a living wage.
She drives a Honda Civic and loves it. She rents a moderately priced apartment with friends and is saving for a down on a house while trying to pay off $40K in SL's.
She does own a few "Coach" shoes, purchased on sale and at a discount, for $less than $30.00 a pair. I was at the same Macy's sale, LOL.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Jan 17, 2011 14:27:50 GMT -5
How could I possibly be surprised? That girl from the other boards that's on welfare and wic and lives with one of her baby daddys and NEEDS 2 BATHROOMS AND 2 BEDROOMS for her kid and NEEDS AN F150 and doesn't care about the gas mileage... yeah... I'm not surprised by anything.
Honestly? Your wife's attitude is disgusting to me. Sorry. If you travel the world and see that half the people sleep in lean-tos and cardboard boxes and don't have enough to eat you really don't give a flying f*** what you drive to work as long as it gets you there. Why don't you show her pictures of people from Haiti still living in open air spaces with only a tarp over their head a YEAR after the earthquake? Where is her perspective?
She needs a reality check. I honestly couldn't be with someone so short and narrow minded.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jan 17, 2011 16:20:43 GMT -5
cawiau - Maybe I'm wrong here, but aren't you & your wife maxing out your 401Ks or coming pretty close?
While I agree that the "I deserve it" line of thinking will get you no where & your wife has trouble understanding what you can really afford, do you think that maybe you are pushing her too hard the other way? Just from what I read on your posts, it sounds like you are starting to develop more of a parent / child relationship. She whines & complains & wants to spend - you lecture & insist that you don't spend money. If this is really the pattern that is starting to develop, then you need to get a handle on things because you are working against each other & you will both start to resent the other.
You need to start working together & get on the same page financially. You both will need to compromise for this to work. You can't expect her to change 100% to your way of thinking. The reason I brought up the 401K is because if you are truly maxing it out, then that is awesome for your age, but maybe you should consider contributing a little less & put some of that towards a slightly nicer apt that makes your wife happy. There needs to be a balance that makes you both happy. Ri
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Jan 17, 2011 16:26:45 GMT -5
I get over it and keep going. I appreciate that my husband doesn't try to brow beat me or logic me whenever I vent about how expensive a new couch is (cause this time around I don't want a dorm room POS) and that I am not going to go out and finance one in the next five minutes. I'm just bitching because sometimes I get burned out having to constantly research, it'd be nice to just not think and get the damn couch once and awhile. Other than our beds (ours, DS and the spare BR) we just purchased our first new furniture since we bought our house 5.5 years ago . We blew over $4k last month for a TV Stand / entertainment center, end tables, a nice Catnapper sectional with a dual reclining couch, corner wedge and dual rocking/reclining loveseat (sweet!). All paid for when the cc bill came in last week. That is the definition of Middle class IMHO. We did without for quite a while (compared to most new homeowners) so that eventually we could afford to get something nice that we really liked. ETA: now that I think about it, actually, our beds were purchased and delivered to our old house because closing got pushed off a week. That would make the living room stuff the first new furniture.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Jan 17, 2011 16:34:26 GMT -5
it sounds like you are starting to develop more of a parent / child relationship. She whines & complains & wants to spend - you lecture & insist that you don't spend money. If this is really the pattern that is starting to develop, then you need to get a handle on things because you are working against each other & you will both start to resent the other.
The way I see it is his wife is working against the best interests of the marriage. I've seen dozens of times where the wife plays the child role in the marriage in various situations and scenarios. Don't you think it is high time Cawi's wife grow up and start acting like, and taking responsibilities like the highly educated adult she supposedly is?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jan 17, 2011 16:47:03 GMT -5
SF, the immature/child like spouse is not limited to the wife. You know damn well it goes both ways. Stop being a misogynistic prick.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jan 17, 2011 17:09:39 GMT -5
The way I see it is his wife is working against the best interests of the marriage. I've seen dozens of times where the wife plays the child role in the marriage in various situations and scenarios. Don't you think it is high time Cawi's wife grow up and start acting like, and taking responsibilities like the highly educated adult she supposedly is? Yes, she needs to grow up, but maybe he is pushing a little too hard. He knew she was like this before they were married, so it shouldn't be a shock. They are already living on a budget & I believe maxing out their 401Ks, so it isn't like she isn't trying. If all this is against her will & he continues to force her to do things his way, then that will end up with her resenting him. My ex became this way, although with him I think it was a control issue because he became controlling & obsessive compulsive about non-money things as well. I am by no means a big spender, but his excessive tightwadness & controlling behavior tore apart our relationship. He started refusing to eat out because "it is a waste of money" & wouldn't do anything that involved spending money like going to a movie. We won an Xbox & he insisted on returning it to a store because it was a waste of money to own an Xbox. Now, I have no idea if this is how things are going in cawaiu's house or if this tantrum was just his wife's frustration at wanting more than they can afford even if she accepts that they need a cheaper apt. I am just saying, if he is starting to act like her parent when it comes to money & continuously lecturing & having to put his foot down, then he needs to stop because that won't help the relationship. If they are starting to have this problem, then they probably need some financial counseling where she can have some one other than her husband tell her that they can't afford these things.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Jan 17, 2011 17:25:03 GMT -5
Maybe the wife just needs a hug. Sometimes it is ok to be sad and cry about what you don't have without expecting to get it. When I wanted a baby and couldn't conceive I cried some but didn't blame anyone or expect them to hand me a baby because I wanted one.
Perhaps a hug and being told she is worth the stars and the moon and if they could afford them she would be handed everything on a silver platter would make her feel better. She is worth it and deserves all the best in life and he loves her enough to have married her. Unfortunately they have to prioritize like the rest of us, she knows it, she offered to give up her apartment, she doesn't have to be happy about her loss and what she can't have yet.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jan 17, 2011 17:30:22 GMT -5
Very nice cronewitch!
Maybe I have missed it, but why were you in such an expensive apt that you couldn't afford to begin with?
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Post by honeybunny66 on Jan 17, 2011 18:35:43 GMT -5
Yes, she needs to grow up, but maybe he is pushing a little too hard. He knew she was like this before they were married, so it shouldn't be a shock. They are already living on a budget & I believe maxing out their 401Ks, so it isn't like she isn't trying. If all this is against her will & he continues to force her to do things his way, then that will end up with her resenting him.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2011 19:16:39 GMT -5
I don't think its that they can't afford the apartment. Its just that they can't afford the apartment, and save for a house in the time period which they would like to be in a house (and get a phd, and have babies... etc.)... I think they might just be having different priorities on that list.
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Post by debtheaven on Jan 17, 2011 21:32:42 GMT -5
Suzi, that must have been very very devastating to all of you. I am so, so sorry. I am so happy your son is doing well now.
Cawiau, I think everybody here adores you, but in your marriage, from the outside at least, it sounds like it's all her, all the time. Yes everybody thinks if they do as their parents say and go to college and work hard they will (as my own parents put it) "be able to afford the finer things in life".
BUT, my parents never led me to expect that that would happen instantly upon graduating from college. I always understood that it would all happen in the fullness of time.
Your wife is a very smart cookie, so why hasn't she "gotten it" yet?
You are not a team. On some level (I know this is not the only level you and your wife relate on) you are the "parent" and she is the "child". I think that is deeply sad.
I hope things work out for you, but frankly, not much has changed about her since I first started posting here in May 2007. I'm sure you have your own faults too, but she doesn't post (repeatedly and over and over) about them LOL.
Again, all my best to both of you.
ETA: I think Suzi's suggestion about getting the MIL to help with the SLs is an EXCELLENT suggestion. Of course her mom no longer "owes" her anything, but it's certainly one of the elephants in the room in your budget. I also say this because I know from past posts that education is extremely important in your families. Frankly her mom is going to be paying for something, it may as well be the SLs.
As you know I am Jewish and there seem to be certain similarities. My niece married a guy my sister does not like (I know that is not your case). My niece (a lawyer) and her DH (an immigrant with no education to speak of) are struggling. But he's not earning a living, and my sister does not want to contribute to his lavish lifestyle. So she is helping her DD and grandchild by slowly but surely (and silently) paying off her DD's / my niece's SLs. I mean her law school loans, her parents paid for undergrad.
I think the crux of the issue is your wife will get there, but not yesterday. And (as another poster said, phrasing things differently) she can probably afford anything she wants, but not everything, and certainly not all at the same time. Very few people can.
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