Does the universe have a purpose ?

[jemima]

If there is a will, there is a way...enjoy the few moments.

Does the universe have a purpose?

According to the OP, no.

Why continue?

[moon/Laura]

Nov 9, 2011 12:11:41 GMT -5 @femmefatale said:

LOL

So this is the side entrance to the house. Well done.

The "side entrance" can be closed just as easily and that's no joke.


Let me be very clear. I agreed to allow Tosh's God thread IF AND ONLY IF it did not turn into the usual flame war. It stayed calm for far longer than I thought it would.

But, as I also anticipated, people are unable to discuss their feelings on the subject without feeling the need to argue with others over *their* feelings.

This is NOT a "right or wrong" sort of topic. It is different things to different people, and I expect you ALL to be respectful of everyone else's opinion.

You as a whole, with special emphasis on a few, did not do that. That is why those threads were locked. This one will absolutely follow suit if it happens again and I will not ever allow the topic again.


This is your one and only warning.

~moon mod

[Deleted]

Reason is therefore a suitable candidate for a universal purpose and the purpose of the universe.


It certainly is a suitable candidate. But it may very well be that the universe doesn't have a purpose or a meaning outside of anything we ascribe to it. It may be that the universe just simply is.

Now for the important things, do I go out for a Greek Salad, or do I go to the local deli for a pastrami on rye, with a slice of tomato, swiss cheese, and some Dijon mustard...pickles on the side. Then of course, there is this great little pizza place, maybe a slice...

The universe is conspiring against me.

[Tosh]

Cosmology is a very humbling experience, the pale blue dot by Carl Sagan is a wonderful example of this.

However one can not escape one fact, consciousness is the ultimate state of any evolutionary process and humans have it .

The evolution of reason is the highest state of consciousness in the universe, and I have it in spades.

Please send me money and I will share my Divine reason with you and give you immortality and happiness.

Lots of money, the ego is part of our consciousness and my ego is greedy.

[mmhmm]

I believe reason to be the mechanism through which we, as humans, try to understand the universe, not the purpose of the universe. The purpose of the universe, IMO, is beyond our comprehension at this point in our development. It may always remain beyond our comprehension.

[Tosh]

If there is a will, there is a way...enjoy the few moments.

Hello Jemima, ever the optimist.

Does the universe have a purpose? According to the OP, no. Why continue?

Because each and every conscious human being has the right to decide for themselves whether or not I am right or wrong, you are included in this process, it is your choice alone to continue or not.

[Deleted]

Cause and effect.

The cause of an event must precede that event.

When did the universe begin?
Does the universe itself include all time?
If so how could there be a preceding time for cause to take place?

[Tosh]

I believe reason to be the mechanism through which we, as humans, try to understand the universe, not the purpose of the universe. The purpose of the universe, IMO, is beyond our comprehension at this point in our development. It may always remain beyond our comprehension.

Hello mmhmm,

It is only beyond our comprehension because of a lack of reason, we have not acquired sufficient reason to answer the question of purpose, this suggests to me that reason is the purpose to the universe, once we achieve the highest level we will comprehend the universe.

It is a universal variation of " know thyself ".

[Tosh]

---

Cause and effect. The cause of an event must precede that event. When did the universe begin? Does the universe itself include all time?
If so how could there be a preceding time for cause to take place?

Joey, you do ask tough questions.

The first cause or big bang created space-time, time and space did not exist prior to this event, it is relative. Physicists deal in physicality, matter and space-time did not physically exist prior to the big bang. When they say nothing existed prior to the big bang they mean nothing in our space-time, there is no evidence that suggests a state of nothing actually exists in or out of space-time.

[mmhmm]

Nov 9, 2011 12:51:34 GMT -5 Tosh said:

I believe reason to be the mechanism through which we, as humans, try to understand the universe, not the purpose of the universe. The purpose of the universe, IMO, is beyond our comprehension at this point in our development. It may always remain beyond our comprehension.

Hello mmhmm,

It is only beyond our comprehension because of a lack of reason, we have not acquired sufficient reason to answer the question of purpose, this suggests to me that reason is the purpose to the universe, once we achieve the highest level we will comprehend the universe.

It is a universal variation of " know thyself ".

Frankly, Tosh, I don't see the human race (including our understanding, reason, or lack of same) as all that important in the vastness of the universe. We like to see ourselves as the center, but I don't believe we are. I think the universe has a purpose that is far beyond our grasp and not connected to us in any way. We're but a mote in the eye of the universe, not the center of its view.

[Deleted]

I agree with you, mmhmm.

[Tosh]

mmhmm,

I am not suggesting humans are at the center of the purpose of the universe, I am suggesting reason is, reason being a product of consciousness and consciousness being a product of life, and I mean life anywhere in the universe.

One day in the distant future we will bump into other lifeforms some of whom will possess reason, maybe collective reason will be like a collective consciousness and we can get closer to comprehending the universe.

Conscious lifeforms are driven to comprehend the universe, this suggests reason has a purpose, maybe the outcome of this purpose will enable us to reason the purpose for reason.

[gavinsnana]

Nov 9, 2011 12:39:23 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I believe reason to be the mechanism through which we, as humans, try to understand the universe, not the purpose of the universe. The purpose of the universe, IMO, is beyond our comprehension at this point in our development. It may always remain beyond our comprehension.

Well said.mmhmm. I agree! But I still like my idea.. ;D It gives Scientist a job and we get to look thru cool microscopes! ;D

[Spellbound454]

Conscious lifeforms are driven to comprehend the universe, this suggests reason has a purpose, maybe the outcome of this purpose will enable us to reason the purpose for reason

Lol..you are just winging it here Tosh.

You are talking about sentience and phylogenetics.
Its a survival of the fittest sort of thing....

[Tosh]

Lol..you are just winging it here Tosh.

I know but without God and Jesus I am lost, your consciousness may just be an accidental bi-product of the big bang but mine is not.

[femmefatale]

Can I be the wing-man or wing-woman?

[mmhmm]

Nov 9, 2011 13:23:32 GMT -5 Tosh said:

mmhmm,

I am not suggesting humans are at the center of the purpose of the universe, I am suggesting reason is, reason being a product of consciousness and consciousness being a product of life, and I mean life anywhere in the universe.

One day in the distant future we will bump into other lifeforms some of whom will possess reason, maybe collective reason will be like a collective consciousness and we can get closer to comprehending the universe.

Conscious lifeforms are driven to comprehend the universe, this suggests reason has a purpose, maybe the outcome of this purpose will enable us to reason the purpose for reason.

Hee! I agree with Spellbound. It's a lovely flight of fancy, but it ran into a floating wall, Tosh. Sentience involves beings, and I simply don't believe beings to be all that big a deal, whether it's us or a race from a distant galaxy. We're just grains of sand in the universe with no real importance other than to take up our tiny bit of space.

[Tosh]

Hee! I agree with Spellbound. It's a lovely flight of fancy, but it ran into a floating wall, Tosh. Sentience involves beings, and I simply don't believe beings to be all that big a deal, whether it's us or a race from a distant galaxy. We're just grains of sand in the universe with no real importance other than to take up our tiny bit of space.

All beings are made up of the contents of the singularity, our consciousness is physical and reason is an inevitable outcome of consciousness. I suggest consciousness is the ultimate physical state and I suggest this may be the purpose of existence, without it the universe would not exist in possibly more ways than one.

[mmhmm]

And I'd say there may well be a physical state beyond consciousness about which we petty humans know absolutely nothing. I'd say that's more likely to be the the purpose of the universe if, indeed, the universe has a purpose. I believe the universe could go on quite nicely without any of us. We mean nothing in such a vast continuum.

[Tosh]

And I'd say there may well be a physical state beyond consciousness about which we petty humans know absolutely nothing. I'd say that's more likely to be the the purpose of the universe if, indeed, the universe has a purpose. I believe the universe could go on quite nicely without any of us. We mean nothing in such a vast continuum.

Aha, you doubt my genius theory but are quite happy to consider the primitive death denial theories of our primitive ancestors.

Shame on you.

[Tosh]

If the universe has a purpose then it may be designed, if it is designed then there may be a designer, if there is a designer then maybe it had a son, if it had a son and he told us of the importance of our consciousness then I wonder if we would kill him and get rich ?

You never know. ;D

[roygrip]

Have fun Tosh. I ALWAYS enjoy your side of the coin. Yes there is mutual respect between us for our thoughts, therories and beliefs. You are a very intelligent friend. Peace and enjoy.

[roygrip]

Nov 10, 2011 8:18:05 GMT -5 Lady Gaga Gaga Snerd said:

Oh barf. This is really turning into a love fest.

LOL Snerd! A longtime ago on a planet far, far away, Tosh and I didn't always agree. We went far thru that. And though we're at diff. ends of the spectrum, I admire his intelligence. Mutual respect. Agreement to disagree, and I enjoy his reasoning process.

But you can always vote one in the believer side for me

[Tosh]

Oh barf. This is really turning into a love fest.

Would you prefer some Darwinian jungle of the survival of the fittest, be careful what you wish for my dear.

Love you more. ;D

[Tosh]

And, a guy on guy LoveFest to boot! Come on fellas, we dont' wanna see your estrogen! Man up!

God help us from the primordial urges of the female species, the genetic desire to view male combat is an evolutionary outcome of the mate selection process. Wealthy women from the Coliseum paid large sums to watch and have sex with the most brutal and successful gladiators.

Anthropological studies of primitive tribes indicate more than 3/4s of all conflicts were over or caused by women.

The story of the Garden of Eden does not demonize woman for nothing, men have always known that women are trouble and can get you killed.

I am going to rename Snicks , she will from this day forth be known as Lilith, she was Adams first partner but refused to bow down to his authority and got dumped.

[Tosh]

No. But you both need to stop with the Oprah and go back to scratching you private parts.

I may be a primate but I am a primate with a big brain, my big brain resists the urge to scratch anything but my head.

I have run about night clubs for most of my life, I can spot a female trouble maker a mile off, I am watching you very closely Lilith my dear.

[Tosh]

So, Lilith crawled out to the primordial ooze the same time Eve did? How nice for Adam to have had his choice.

Nope, Lilith was created from clay before Adam, Eve was the 3rd attempt I believe, I can not recall the name of the 2nd attempt, maybe it was Oprah.

I have this theory that the female emotion of nurture and empathy enabled them to evolve full awareness before men who were restricted by testosterone. For tens of thousands of years, women were in charge of the thinking and feeling business, men hunted and scratched their private parts.

DNA markers can act like a calender, it seems Eve evolved some 60,000 years before Adam.

[femmefatale]

Who the heck is Lilith? I need to read back.

[Tosh]

Who the heck is Lilith? I need to read back.

The first woman to say no to a man, unsurprisingly she did not last long.

In Jewish folklore, from the 8th–10th Century Alphabet of Ben Sira onwards Lilith becomes Adam's first wife, who was created at the same time and from the same earth as Adam. This contrasts with Eve, who was created from one of Adam's ribs. The legend was greatly developed during the Middle Ages, in the tradition of Aggadic midrashim, the Zohar and Jewish mysticism.[3] In the 13th Century writings of Rabbi Isaac ben Jacob ha-Cohen, for example, Lilith left Adam after she refused to become subservient to him and then would not return to the Garden of Eden after she mated with archangel Samael.[4] The resulting Lilith legend is still commonly used as source material in modern Western culture, literature, occultism, fantasy, and horror.

[Deleted]

Lilith is a female demon in ancient jewish mythology, or as some have more colorfully described her, “a succubus who gives men wet dreams”.



So Roy and Tosh are having a bromance?

Snerd, with rare exception, you crack me up. I don’t know whether it’s intentional or not, but you are one funny lady.