Does the universe have a purpose ?

[Tosh]

I was just wondering if the universe has any intentionality behind it, is it possible that 500 billion trillion planets exist for no other reason than the Laws of Physics ?

[ruger2506]

Sept 16, 2011 13:45:53 GMT -5 Tosh said:

I was just wondering if the universe has any intentionality behind it, is it possible that 500 billion trillion planets exist for no other reason than the Laws of Physics ?

Does there need to be a reason? You are correct, physics dictate why the universe is the way it is.

[spartyparty]

Hi tosh, this is God, please just enjoy my creation, have a drink, get laid and quit asking so many questions.

[Tosh]

We are aware of our existence because we have consciousness, can we really imagine that our consciousness is an unintended outcome of the Big Bang ?

Without consciousness there would be no imagination.

[Tosh]

Does there need to be a reason? You are correct, physics dictate why the universe is the way it is.

I am not arguing against a cause and effect deterministic universe but I see no reason to assume the universe has no intentionality.

[Bob Ross]

I'm pretty sure we're all just floating around in Jesus' bong water.

[Sum Dum Gai]

We are aware of our existence because we have consciousness, can we really imagine that our consciousness is an unintended outcome of the Big Bang ?

I find that more comforting than the thought that all the suffering and misery that exists in the world, and I assume on other worlds as well, was planned out in advance.

I want you to think about they type of sick son of a bitch that would plan and build a system that included childhood cancer, serial rapists, etc., etc. It really helps you sleep at night that something like that is responsible for all creation, and he did it on purpose?

[Tosh]

Hi tosh, this is God, please just enjoy my creation, have a drink, get laid and quit asking so many questions.

If I thought the answer to my questions lay in mind altering drugs and sex, then I would not be on here.

Trust me, they answer nothing.

[Tosh]

I'm pretty sure we're all just floating around in Jesus' bong water.

I do not understand what Jesus has to do with an intentional universe, I see no point picking on those who choose to believe in a certain creation story.

[ruger2506]

Sept 16, 2011 13:57:54 GMT -5 Tosh said:

Hi tosh, this is God, please just enjoy my creation, have a drink, get laid and quit asking so many questions.

If I thought the answer to my questions lay in mind altering drugs and sex, then I would not be on here.

Trust me, they answer nothing.

Seek god and meaning elsewhere Tosh. This site is for the rational person. Blind faith has no place in finances. At least not mine.

[ruger2506]

Sept 16, 2011 14:00:13 GMT -5 Tosh said:

I'm pretty sure we're all just floating around in Jesus' bong water.

I do not understand what Jesus has to do with an intentional universe, I see no point picking on those who choose to believe in a certain creation story.

Of course we pick on people like you. People like you choose to ignore scientific theory which has some very strong proof behind it. Just cbeause you are a needy and feel that some higher power is in control so you don't have to take responsibility for your actions.

[Tosh]

I find that more comforting than the thought that all the suffering and misery that exists in the world, and I assume on other worlds as well, was planned out in advance.

I want you to think about they type of sick son of a bitch that would plan and build a system that included childhood cancer, serial rapists, etc., etc. It really helps you sleep at night that something like that is responsible for all creation, and he did it on purpose?

I know what you are saying but you assume everything is predetermined, which is unlikely to be the case, the universe may have a general intention like an order forming out of chaos.

[rovo]

tosh, You had a thread locked 20 minutes ago on basically the same topic. I've locked this one and please stop with these types of threads.

rovo -- Moderator

[moon/Laura]

Now that I have added a spiritual health section, I will unlock this and see where it goes, as tosh intends the topic to be philosophical.

DO NOT turn it into a flame war or it will be shut down again..

~moon mod

[Tosh]

Of course we pick on people like you. People like you choose to ignore scientific theory which has some very strong proof behind it. Just because you are a needy and feel that some higher power is in control so you don't have to take responsibility for your actions.

Ruger,

Thanks for your response, the question I pose contradicts no scientific theory that I am aware of. There is no proof nor evidence to suggest the big bang, the laws of physics or the universe have an intentionality behind them. The question is a philosophical one and not as you mistakenly assume, a religious or a scientific one.

Questions such as why the laws of physics exist and why does the universe appear mathematical, are legitimate questions, regardless of ones stance on atheism, theism or agnosticism.

Peace.

p.s. All humans have needs my friend, you are no exception, as for responsibility, the current scientific theory of a cause and effect deterministic universe rejects this premise, free will is an illusion.

We may be accountable for our actions but the evidence suggests we are not responsible for them.

[Tosh]

Science can answer "how", it doesn't answer "Why".

Science considers it an invalid question, philosophers do not.

As for the notion of free will and responsibility and accountability, most civilizations have some types of laws that deem a person accountable, responsible, and that they had choose to perform some action or behavior that is deemed illegal, immoral, unlawful or whatever. These concepts did not develop in a vacuum and i would suggest that such moral law and the notion of law and justice simply did not originate in a random way if there is a random universe but again would have to tie back into a Creator.

Like most things, our morality is a product of our genetic inheritance and our environment, social codes of conduct are essential to avoid conflict and survival threats. Since our environment is partially responsible for our behaviour, it is wise to behave as if free will exists and we are responsible and in control of our actions. However there is no such thing as a thought or action without a cause, they are all effects and therefore determined.

Our consciousness is the sum of all antecedent causes from the big bang onwards.

[Tosh]

And, you have no scientific basis or theory on which to base the above statements.

Darwins theory of evolution did not just relate to our physical traits, he believed everything evolved including our psyche.

Neuroscience confirms that our consciousness is physical, and evolutionary psychology has some purdy good hypotheses on the origins of morality, our emotions and our consciousness.

Darwin believed that all our emotional and cognitive abilities are simply enhanced traits or adaptations of our genetic instructions, and I tend to agree.

[Tosh]

But, i would submit that science clearly demonstrates that animated, alive creatures, beings do not occur from inanimate or nonliving things in the first place.

I believe science can offer some chemical-physical explanations on the origins of life.

[mmhmm]

Ahh, Tosh, me special luv ... you've got it goin' on, hon, and I'm glad to see it. This discussion takes me back to the old arguments we used to get into regarding a tree falling in a forest. Is noise subjective, or objective? Is it there, or does it require an ear to hear it? Both arguments have merit. The division lies within the individuals and how they see, and think about life and living it.

[mmhmm]

Sept 17, 2011 9:28:38 GMT -5 Tosh said:

But, i would submit that science clearly demonstrates that animated, alive creatures, beings do not occur from inanimate or nonliving things in the first place.

I believe science can offer some chemical-physical explanations on the origins of life.

Science does, indeed, offer such explanations. We, as human beings do not know all, and will probably never know all. We do not know, for absolute certain, beings do not occur from inanimate, or nonliving things. Because we have not seen it, does not mean it has never happened. To derive that meaning from something we haven't encountered is to close one's mind to possibilities beyond our simple understanding.

[Deleted]

I believe the knowledge of scientists' has it's place and purpose in the universe which helps man to understand their world's make-up..

I also believe one of the purposes of our earth, is to house us humans, to prompt exploration of the universe and all that is within.. Ultimately, to be drawn to the Who, who created it all.

That's my belief and I'm stickin' to it..

[Tosh]

I believe the knowledge of scientists' has it's place and purpose in the universe which helps man to understand their world's make-up..

I agree, however science can not determine if the universe has a purpose or if life is an intended or unintended outcome, these are the questions we seek answers to.

I also believe one of the purposes of our earth, is to house us humans, to prompt exploration of the universe and all that is within.. Ultimately, to be drawn to the Who, who created it all.

That is probably more than I believe, I don't believe we ( or morality) are the central reason for the universe existing, I certainly do not believe in an afterlife or an infinite souls or consciousness. Life in the universe may however be an intended outcome and I like to explore the reasons behind this.

That's my belief and I'm stickin' to it..

I stick to facts, I never stick to my beliefs.

[Opti]

I stick to facts, I never stick to my beliefs.

No point in putting much of my point of view here then.

My beliefs evolve and sticking to just the known facts or what science can prove I find far too limiting for me.
Science is just getting around to proving/documenting many things Buddhists have passed down for generations about the nature of the mind, conciousness let alone what many faiths know about the power of prayer.

Since the universe IMO is not a single entity it can't have a single intention. I believe in the eternity of conciousness. Since you don't, you'll probably not learn what I already know.

[Tosh]

No point in putting much of my point of view here then.

I did not mean it to sound so terse, I welcome all views and beliefs.

My beliefs evolve and sticking to just the known facts or what science can prove I find far too limiting for me.

My beliefs are based on known facts, if the facts change then so do my beliefs, we are not as far apart as it may seem.

Science is just getting around to proving/documenting many things Buddhists have passed down for generations about the nature of the mind, consciousness let alone what many faiths know about the power of prayer.

I would doubt Buddhism supersedes neuroscience, quantum mechanics, genetics and evolutionary psychology in terms of knowledge about our consciousness. They may have some primitive guesses but most of it is white noise, in my humblest of opinions.

Since the universe IMO is not a single entity it can't have a single intention. I believe in the eternity of consciousness. Since you don't, you'll probably not learn what I already know.

I am not quite sure what " a single entity " means, do you believe in string or " M " theory, there may indeed be multi verses and multi dimensions. However it is a logical fallacy to connect such physical phenomena with the physical property of human consciousness.

I would love for my consciousness to survive death but the crowd in our head only emerges when our brain is alive, hence the definition " brain death ".

Peace.

[Opti]

I would doubt Buddhism supersedes neuroscience, quantum mechanics, genetics and evolutionary psychology in terms of knowledge about our consciousness. They may have some primitive guesses but most of it is white noise, in my humblest of opinions.

Not very well read in Buddhism then. Quantum mechanics, neuroscience, etc. is still far behind in explaining how things work from a science based perspective. Yet Buddhists have been coming back lifetime after lifetime and have texts on how to do so.
Science can't fully explain why prayer works, but it has finally noticed that particles can appear to have a mind of their own, that the observer does(always) affect the experiment. String theory, etc. is only touching on the surface of explaining what various religious and spiritual discplines have known for a very long time. That's why I don't limit myself to science and the facts.

You might appreciate reading Biology of Belief I think by Bruce Lipton. He taught med students for many years and has come to the conclusion that genetics is influenced by the organism not the other way around as you and most of us have been taught. Belief and the observer can trump any law or body of knowledge like genetics.

[Tosh]

There was a vast void of Nothing. I mean, Nothing. Not subatomic particles or a chemical soup, but Nothing. And out of Nothing, there was an explosion and thus Everything. Does this not seem absurd and silly when you really boil it down?

It does if the vast nothingness you propose actually exists, but we have no evidence of this nothingness.

Therefore it could easily be imagined that beyond the universe is something and from this something the universe was born.

Alternatively, if God can create something out of nothing then who says the laws outwith the universe can not possess this same capability.

[Tosh]

Nonliving does not produce living. If you have some science to demonstrate that nonliving, inanimate objects somehow spontaneously produce a living creature or being or cell, then lets' see it. And, to say we do not know and probably will never know, and that science does indeed offer such explanations, well you might as say the same about the possibility of God as well.

Life is self replication or copying of molecules, recent studies suggest it may have been simply a case of RNA enzyme fusion. The answers will be found in chemistry, biology and physics, not in mythology, there were many things we used to be ignorant of and credited to God, it was called the God of the gaps.

IO thought we had moved beyond this logical fallacy of we do not know for sure....so God did it.

[Tosh]

Not very well read in Buddhism then. Quantum mechanics, neuroscience, etc. is still far behind in explaining how things work from a science based perspective. Yet Buddhists have been coming back lifetime after lifetime and have texts on how to do so.

Are you talking about reincarnation or putting yourself into a self induced semi-coma with chanting and meditation ?

Buddhism is no more of a guide to consciousness than Cartesian dualism, the answers to our consciousness lie in the physical world, not in some primitive alternative reality.

[Opti]

Just because you believe the answers to our conciousness lie in the physical world doesn't make it true. The fact that you think Buddhism which sees reality as the dream as a primitive reality says we are very far apart in our world views.

Yes I was talking about reincarnation but that's only one aspect of conciousness I decided to post about.
My worldview is that the universe doesn't need a purpose of its own and if it had one it is free to change it at any time like all beings. My quest is joy and understanding.

What is the purpose of your question? Understanding, learning other points of view or posting your understanding of the universe is better than all other posters on your thread?

[Tosh]

If one is born with a genetic tendency to be good, and you are brought up in a good environment ( family and social), is the outcome ( a good person) a product of free will or cause and effect determinism ?

IF THE PERSON FALLS ON HIS HEAD DAMAGING HIS BRAIN AND BECOMES A SERIAL KILLER, IS THE OUTCOME A PRODUCT OF FREE WILL OR CAUSE AND EFFECT DETERMINISM ?

From the big bang onwards, step after step of deterministic causes and effects, our consciousness is the sum of all our antecedent causes.