Does the universe have a purpose ?

[Opti]

Sept 17, 2011 20:45:31 GMT -5 Tosh said:

If one is born with a genetic tendency to be good, and you are brought up in a good environment ( family and social), is the outcome ( a good person) a product of free will or cause and effect determinism ?

IF THE PERSON FALLS ON HIS HEAD DAMAGING HIS BRAIN AND BECOMES A SERIAL KILLER, IS THE OUTCOME A PRODUCT OF FREE WILL OR CAUSE AND EFFECT DETERMINISM ?

From the big bang onwards, step after step of deterministic causes and effects, our consciousness is the sum of all our antecedent causes.

I believe the soul chooses what family to be born into thus setting up initial conditions. The soul could have chosen to become a serial killer by falling on his head creating brain damage or perhaps it was an unintentional side effect. In any event, if he becomes a serial killer IMO it was because he chose it at a soul level intentionally or accidentally and if accidentally it will not put him off the path he chose for this life.

Choice always.

[Tosh]

What is the purpose of your question? Understanding, learning other points of view or posting your understanding of the universe is better than all other posters on your thread?

Does it offend you that I do not accept primitive reincarnation myths ?

Our consciousness is an emergent property of the brain, we measure it, we can trace it and we can identify its patterns.

Our brain function is not some ghost in the machine, I can not accept the whole concept that the universe is one big human consciousness. The problem with quantum mechanics is that it has created a whole new pseudo science built on a logical fallacy. Our consciousness may be quantum, and the universe has a quantum level, this does not lead to the conclusion that the universe is one consciousness.

Sorry.

[ktunes]

Does the universe have a purpose ?

yes, it does...

[Tosh]

yes, it does...

Is it a secret, or do you intend to share it with me ?

[Tosh]

I believe the soul chooses what family to be born into thus setting up initial conditions. The soul could have chosen to become a serial killer by falling on his head creating brain damage or perhaps it was an unintentional side effect. In any event, if he becomes a serial killer IMO it was because he chose it at a soul level intentionally or accidentally and if accidentally it will not put him off the path he chose for this life.

Choice always.

Why would a soul choose a family where it is going to be physically and mentally abused ?

I would imagine even a soul would be interested in its well being.

[ktunes]

my personal belief is that God intends to reproduce...

[Tosh]

Not sure of your point. "Good people" are produced from all kinds of environments. "Good" people have come out of many terrible and hellacious situations so the "plug and play" scenarios and simplistic 1 +1 doesn't seem to apply as you are saying it does. If true, then good situations would always produce good people and bad situations always produce bad people and we know that isnt true. As for your person falling on their head, we realize and recognize that there are indeed some people who lack the conscious ability to form notions of morality and right and wrong. However, that in no way eliminates those concepts as we still recognize and expect to uphold them.

My point is simply one of cause and effect, I did not suggest it is always as simple as 1+1, however everything has a determined cause regardless of its complexity or simplicity, ergo, no free will.

The notions of right, wrong and responsibility are integral components of a deterministic system, our environment effects our behaviour and our thoughts.

We are products of our genes and environment, no one is good or bad for no reason, everything must have a cause in a deterministic system.

We are held accountable for our actions but we dd not choose them freely.

Depression is not a choice, it is an effect with causes.

[Tosh]

my personal belief is that God intends to reproduce...

Your idea is not as daft as it first appears, it is on my short list.

God is a conscious being and creates the conditions where consciousness will be reproduced in the universe, since humanity was born from our consciousness one could argue that God is humane. The purpose of the universe is to reproduce God's nature through its children.

The kingdom of God is within us and all around us.

I quite like that.

[jemima]

What is the purpose of your question? Understanding, learning other points of view or posting your understanding of the universe is better than all other posters on your thread?

I was thinking the exact same. Each and every individual will have a different yet a unique answer to the thread title's question unless it's a yes or no. If the opinions and views of posters cannot be accepted then they cannot be dismissed entirely either and if so then the OP knows more about the universe and its purpose than what he is leading on.

[Tosh]

was thinking the exact same. Each and every individual will have a different yet a unique answer to the thread title's question unless it's a yes or no. If the opinions and views of posters cannot be accepted then they cannot be dismissed entirely either and if so then the OP knows more about the universe and its purpose than what he is leading on.

Now ladies, no ganging up on me, I am a lovely guy. I apologise if my style is a tad dismissive, I am all ears from now on in.

Fire away with your beliefs and I will try and understand them all, can I debate just a little ? ;D

[Deleted]

Quite a good read, I must say.

Tosh. Hi.

I offer you a proposition should you accept.. If not, continue on in your same manner.

Why not you settle your facts according to your truths about our universe in one post? That way, it cuts way down on our being wrong in your eyes. Most men really believe they are right in their own eyes as they see truth. And is why the responding posts. Allow us to just sit back and hear your take on the facts concerning our universe.

I promise I will not interrupt, but will listen readily..

[Tosh]

I offer you a proposition should you accept.. If not, continue on in your same manner.

Why not you settle your facts according to your truths about our universe in one post? That way, it cuts way down on our being wrong in your eyes. Most men really believe they are right in their own eyes as they see truth. And is why the responding posts. Allow us to just sit back and hear your take on the facts concerning our universe.

I promise I will not interrupt, but will listen readily..

If only it was that simple, I have a few thoughts on what is false and what is true, but there is the messy bit in the middle I am pontificating on.

In a nutshell, I am a realist, I believe in a cause and effect physical deterministic universe, I do not accept the supernatural exists but I am open to the possibility that there is an intentionality behind the universe.

The question is then, what is the intended purpose(s).

[ktunes]

In a nutshell, I am a realist, I believe in a cause and effect physical deterministic universe, I do not accept the supernatural exists but I am open to the possibility that there is an intentionality behind the universe.

for those that do not believe in the "supernatural" or any possibility of life after death, then life should be pretty simple...you live, then you die so you might as well enjoy the ride...

if cause and effect is your thing, then study what causes determine the desired effect and chose accordingly...(no disrespect intended)

[Tosh]

for those that do not believe in the "supernatural" or any possibility of life after death, then life should be pretty simple...you live, then you die so you might as well enjoy the ride...

Cause and effect determinism does not make the universe nor our consciousness simple, you seem to be confusing purpose, significance, meaning and the nature of existence with death denial. Why you consider the natural world less complex than the supernatural world is beyond me, the world of the supernatural is purdy darn simple.

if cause and effect is your thing, then study what causes determine the desired effect and chose accordingly...(no disrespect intended)

This is exactly what I am doing my friend, I do not know all the causes and effects so bear with me, I am enjoying the ride of complex discovery.

No offence taken, I am very thick skinned.

[Tosh]

Ask yourself why in all cultures forgiveness and compassion are considered essential to our well being in all cultures, why did early Christians use the death of Jesus to promote the concept of forgiveness ?

We have always been aware of our susceptibility to our genes and our environment, we recognise the need to forgive ourselves and others to achieve a healthy mind.

Forgiveness is an effect of cause and effect.

[mmhmm]

Sept 17, 2011 18:28:14 GMT -5 Lady Gaga Gaga Snerd said:

Sept 17, 2011 10:34:19 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Science does, indeed, offer such explanations. We, as human beings do not know all, and will probably never know all. We do not know, for absolute certain, beings do not occur from inanimate, or nonliving things. Because we have not seen it, does not mean it has never happened. To derive that meaning from something we haven't encountered is to close one's mind to possibilities beyond our simple understanding.

Nonliving does not produce living. If you have some science to demonstrate that nonliving, inanimate objects somehow spontaneously produce a living creature or being or cell, then lets' see it. And, to say we do not know and probably will never know, and that science does indeed offer such explanations, well you might as say the same about the possibility of God as well.

The concept of God does, indeed, offer explanations. For some people, those explanations are all that's required, just as for some the explanations offered by science are all that's required.

[ktunes]

you seem to be confusing purpose, significance, meaning and the nature of existence with death denial

there is no confusion in my belief system here...humans die

Why you consider the natural world less complex than the supernatural world is beyond me

i see it a little differently, life should be fairly simple...it's us humans that make it complicated...

the world of the supernatural is purdy darn simple.

i thought you didn't believe in the supernatural...i imagine it may be complex to try to keep us from completely destroying each other and this planet...imho

[Tosh]

you seem to be confusing purpose, significance, meaning and the nature of existence with death denial

there is no confusion in my belief system here...humans die

No argument, but you are forgetting the in-betweens.

Quote:Why you consider the natural world less complex than the supernatural world is beyond me

i see it a little differently, life should be fairly simple...it's us humans that make it complicated...

Life is as different as we make it, we can make it simple or complicated, there is no should about it.

Quote:the world of the supernatural is purdy darn simple.

i thought you didn't believe in the supernatural...i imagine it may be complex to try to keep us from completely destroying each other and this planet...imho

I don't, and my statement does not infer I do, I am reluctant to give a belief in the supernatural much credit for anything to be honest, some would argue the reverse.

Peace.

[Deleted]

Tosh. Tosh. Tosh.

You would not consider my truth to your question if I told you, now would you? So I withhold my response, in part..

If I told you forgiveness and compassion comes from God and was He who gave men forgiveness of sin, first by the death of his Son Jesus and we (who believe this truth) are to extend the same to others..

Now Tosh.. Would you really believe what I just shared with you if I told you so? ;D

[Tosh]

If I told you forgiveness and compassion comes from God and was He who gave men forgiveness of sin, first by the death of his Son Jesus and we (who believe this truth) are to extend the same to others.. Now Tosh.. Would you really believe what I just shared with you if I told you so?

Forgiveness and compassion are intrinsic to our well being, we only disagree on its origins.

As for the moral philosopher, Rabbi, martyr and Jewish apocalypticist, Jeshua Ben Joseph, I think he would have problems believing the spin surrounding his message and sacrifice.

In my most humblest of humblest Scottish opinion.

There is an old saying attributed to Jesus from Leviticus, " love thy neighbour as yourself ", this is not much good if one does not learn to forgive and love oneself.

So sayeth the soothsayer from Thotland.

Forgive my lithp.

Peath. ;D

[Opti]

Sept 18, 2011 5:03:14 GMT -5 Tosh said:

I believe the soul chooses what family to be born into thus setting up initial conditions. The soul could have chosen to become a serial killer by falling on his head creating brain damage or perhaps it was an unintentional side effect. In any event, if he becomes a serial killer IMO it was because he chose it at a soul level intentionally or accidentally and if accidentally it will not put him off the path he chose for this life.

Choice always.

Why would a soul choose a family where it is going to be physically and mentally abused ?

I would imagine even a soul would be interested in its well being.

Souls can't be hurt, they are eternal. A soul might choose such a family for several reasons one being if a soul wants to get better at forgiveness one needs to experience bigger things to forgive.

[Opti]

Depression is not a choice, it is an effect with causes.

Strongly disagree with this opinion Tosh. In most cases choices are what create the causes that result in depression.

I used to drink beverages with Sucralose in them until I discovered what some people told me was true. It does indeed cause depression in susceptible people. I avoid it now. Likewise, I had a prescription for an antibiotic which had me at the door of major depression in just three days of taking it. Lastly, I had a clinical depression mostly as a result of being depressed about my life and luckily I pulled myself out with the help of a BF. I got divorced and I'm still struggling with the employment/money thing, but learned optimism saved me not waiting for some cause to smack me back into being OK.

[Tosh]

Souls can't be hurt, they are eternal. A soul might choose such a family for several reasons one being if a soul wants to get better at forgiveness one needs to experience bigger things to forgive.

If souls can not be hurt then they can not experience anything hurtful to forgive, I am now completely confused.

Is this your own idea or is it a common belief ?

[Opti]

Tosh, perhaps I didn't explain it well enough. One's soul is not hurt in the way one's physical self is. The soul knowing it is eternal experiences the situation differently than those of us here who believe this one life is it. Not sure how the Dalai Lama says it, but its something like pain is inevitable; suffering is not.

IMO no experience is inherently bad although certainly we can choose to feel bad about any situation. While I agree being mentally and physically abused is not something I would choose now in this life I totally understand why a soul might choose such a life or to be a rapidly cycling bipolar individual or autistic or rich or poor or many parts of the human condition.

Life can be an amusement park. I think some souls are willing to go on all the rides even the painful and scary ones.

ETA: It is my belief but it is also held by hundreds if not thousands of like minded people.

[Tosh]

Strongly disagree with this opinion Tosh. In most cases choices are what create the causes that result in depression.

Sorry to hear about your difficulties.

The choices one makes may indeed cause depression, this is not the same as choosing depression.

Please remember ones choice also has a cause, the choice is the effect which becomes the cause of another effect.

We never make choices without a cause.

A cause has the effect of making you drink, the drink causes another effect, it makes you depressed.

CAUSE-EFFECT-CAUSE-EFFECT....................all the way back to the big bang.

[Tosh]

Tosh, perhaps I didn't explain it well enough. One's soul is not hurt in the way one's physical self is. The soul knowing it is eternal experiences the situation differently than those of us here who believe this one life is it. Not sure how the Dalai Lama says it, but its something like pain is inevitable; suffering is not.

IMO no experience is inherently bad although certainly we can choose to feel bad about any situation. While I agree being mentally and physically abused is not something I would choose now in this life I totally understand why a soul might choose such a life or to be a rapidly cycling bipolar individual or autistic or rich or poor or many parts of the human condition.

Life can be an amusement park. I think some souls are willing to go on all the rides even the painful and scary ones.

I feel I know you well enough to be open and frank with you, do you really believe all this stuff ?

I know there are a lot of benefits to ones inner self in Buddhism, spirituality is an excellent form of self help, but is all this eternal soul stuff really necessary ?

I consider myself to be more spiritual than most, and I am a full blown atheist who discards the very notion of the supernatural and the soul.

It is a logical fallacy to assume spirituality and morality are dependent on supernatural beliefs.

[Deleted]

Oh, Tosh..
You are in there somewhere, right? You are one one of the most analytically thinking individuals I have ever read..

I bet you can pick the above comment apart too..

Tosh. It mean what it says.

[Deleted]

Re: Does the universe have a purpose ?

To do my bidding! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA!
<<< twirls handlebar moustache >>>

[Tosh]

You are in there somewhere, right? You are one one of the most analytically thinking individuals I have ever read..

Why thank you, I am of course assuming you read a great deal.

[Tosh]

To do my bidding! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA!
<<< twirls handlebar moustache >>>

You are a lovely lady, I think.