Shirina
Well-Known Member
Card carrying member of the Kitty Klub!!
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 23:15:55 GMT -5
Posts: 1,200
|
Post by Shirina on Oct 12, 2011 14:18:49 GMT -5
Considering people are over there on the "God Loving People" thread making rules on a public message board in an attempt to insulate themselves from non-believers, I think my last post has been proven to be correct. They do not want to be questioned, and one has to ask why.
What's worse are the accusations of how atheists are trying to "convert" people, but I could easily pull half a dozen quotes from this very thread showing believers flagrantly bemoaning the fact that they want to convert non-believers. The hypocrisy is so unsettling as to be difficult to fathom.
Needing to hit the "ignore" button on people to avoid discussion or even debate about religion - as some on that thread have threatened to do - is the epitome of religion's insular nature. Instead, you're just supposed to see how many times one can use the words "God, Jesus, and Lord" in a one-sentence forum post.
I really don't care what I write or who I anger ... no one is paying attention anyhow aside from perhaps one or two. The rest are too busy trying to impress Tosh to take notice of anyone who isn't Tosh.
|
|
Tosh
Senior Member
Philosophy is dead.
Joined: Sept 15, 2011 11:24:54 GMT -5
Posts: 2,227
|
Post by Tosh on Oct 12, 2011 14:23:05 GMT -5
I concur.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 4, 2024 10:27:46 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2011 14:28:10 GMT -5
Considering people are over there on the "God Loving People" thread making rules on a public message board in an attempt to insulate themselves from non-believers, I think my last post has been proven to be correct. They do not want to be questioned, and one has to ask why. What's worse are the accusations of how atheists are trying to "convert" people, but I could easily pull half a dozen quotes from this very thread showing believers flagrantly bemoaning the fact that they want to convert non-believers. The hypocrisy is so unsettling as to be difficult to fathom. Needing to hit the "ignore" button on people to avoid discussion or even debate about religion - as some on that thread have threatened to do - is the epitome of religion's insular nature. Instead, you're just supposed to see how many times one can use the words "God, Jesus, and Lord" in a one-sentence forum post. I really don't care what I write or who I anger ... no one is paying attention anyhow aside from perhaps one or two. The rest are too busy trying to impress Tosh to take notice of anyone who isn't Tosh. It is frustrating, and yes the end result is like trying to speak to a child that is covering their ears and refuses not to be converted but to discuss ...just discuss their beliefs. I'm not interested in "converting" anyone, I am interested in historical fiction though.
|
|
|
Post by femmefatale on Oct 12, 2011 14:29:38 GMT -5
I already know this. That's why I created a thread strictly for God Lovers. Peace.
|
|
Cj
Well-Known Member
Found!
Joined: Aug 27, 2011 12:17:21 GMT -5
Posts: 1,693
|
Post by Cj on Oct 12, 2011 14:31:00 GMT -5
Rarely have I found that level of conversation between believers and non-believers. As I've said in one of numerous unremarked posts I've written on this thread, religion is non-negotiable even in discussion. They really don't want to discuss the merits of their faith, for doing so would require them to discuss the merits of their core being. It is what I have always found dangerous about religion; a person often cannot extricate themselves from it even temporarily. Thus challenging religious belief is the same thing as challenging them personally. Thus discussions like this often result in believers lashing out or drowning out atheists with heaps of "praise the lords" and other platitudes. Granted, there are a few nasty atheists, some of whom I have had the misfortune of meeting, and they are an embarrassment to the atheist belief system. It would appear, however, that many see no value in having a discussion simply for the sake of having it. Instead it comes down to needing to change a person's mind, and if that cannot be done, it's back to the usual banality of flirting and talking about food and weather reports. religion is non-negotiable even in discussionAnd this is where sometimes the wheels come off the cart so to speak. faith in religion is non-negotiable, I get it. Believe in me and have ever lasting life. To do otherwise pretty much depicts dire results - do the non-believers get to spend eternity in hell? This is where interpretation of religion has gone awry imho. It's all or nothing, pffffft I don't believe it. If a singular benevolent God exists, you do not have to believe in some kid he sent to earth when you weren't there to see with your own two eyes, to be able to get that golden everlasting ticket. This is interpretative scare tactics to enlist new followers and grow a base to tithe and donate to the church imho. ETA: I'm zipping up my flame retardant suit now....
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 4, 2024 10:27:46 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2011 14:39:07 GMT -5
FEAR is among the most powerful stimulations a person can experience, yet it is used so mundanely by every human institution under the sun, from parenting to advertising, from socializing with others to religion and politics. And to be afraid of someone or something will often change your life profoundly it that person is in a position of authority over you. Although a proper respect of one's fears can be healthy and counterbalancing, it can also become a powerful tool in the hands of unscrupulous leaders everywhere. When those wishing to dominate you are aware of what you are afraid of, they can use that human impulse against you, your will and your very soul in some of the most manipulative of compulsions known to man.
|
|
Tosh
Senior Member
Philosophy is dead.
Joined: Sept 15, 2011 11:24:54 GMT -5
Posts: 2,227
|
Post by Tosh on Oct 12, 2011 14:40:13 GMT -5
Ahem....tap....tap...tap. ....and what is wrong with that ? eh ?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 4, 2024 10:27:46 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2011 14:40:54 GMT -5
People can and do change their minds. If not, there would never be any converts to anything. My beliefs and values have "evolved" (heh, heh) over time. I was not a "believer" until i knew what i believed and why. I couldn't understand going to church unless you were really committed to it. It took me years to come the conclusion that we see through the mirror darkly. When you look out the window, you only see what is in front of you and with a haze. You will never know that you know that you know as you can't see all sides and behind. So, at some point you have to make a decision one way or the other based on what you observe to be true. The easiest thing in the world is to just sit on the fence and be a naysayer . I don't have a lot of respect for that. I have respect for people who analyze and understand their beliefs. But, i also have respect for the simple childlike innocence of faith as well and it just seems to be understood. It takes a lot of courage and intelligence to refuse to drink the koolaid when everyone else is.
|
|
Shirina
Well-Known Member
Card carrying member of the Kitty Klub!!
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 23:15:55 GMT -5
Posts: 1,200
|
Post by Shirina on Oct 12, 2011 14:41:45 GMT -5
My point of contention is, and has always been, the adherence to a particular religion. One can believe in God and generally not get the Third Degree from me, but given the thousands of religions in the world, and the thousands more that once existed, picking just one and claiming it is the TRUTH has never sat well with me. This is especially pertinent given that the religion we decide to follow has more to do with demographics than any inherent truths to be found within the dogmas of a particular faith.
Had any of these devout Christians been born in rural India, Christianity would not be their faith, nor would it be had they been born to a remote tribe in Papua New Guinea. They may still believe in a God, or even multiple gods, but the choice of which dogma they follow would be entirely different.
It is woefully easy to believe your faith is the correct one when you are born into a society where the majority follows that faith. Too often the sense of belonging and camaraderie is too overwhelming to even want to question what one believes, for doubting it might place you on the pariah list in a heartbeat.
I doubt many parents present their children with the philosophies of all major religions - and even some minor ones - and allow the children to decide which faith is right for them, if any of them are. Instead, a combination of demographics, social pressures, parental expectations, and a desire to "fit in" plays more of a role in which religion is followed than the actual scriptures or dogmas involved. Belief in that comes later ... for one would have to already believe firmly in their religion before they can truly believe that the earth is 6,000 years old, for example.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 4, 2024 10:27:46 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2011 14:41:48 GMT -5
Ahem....tap....tap...tap. ....and what is wrong with that ? eh ? ;Dnot a thing cousin.
|
|
Cj
Well-Known Member
Found!
Joined: Aug 27, 2011 12:17:21 GMT -5
Posts: 1,693
|
Post by Cj on Oct 12, 2011 14:42:00 GMT -5
I already know this. That's why I created a thread strictly for God Lovers.
PeaceAwww! And again FF, I didn't mean to single you out at all, you have been very sweet in this thread imho, I just saw the wording example is all.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 4, 2024 10:27:46 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2011 14:42:41 GMT -5
My point of contention is, and has always been, the adherence to a particular religion. One can believe in God and generally not get the Third Degree from me, but given the thousands of religions in the world, and the thousands more that once existed, picking just one and claiming it is the TRUTH has never sat well with me. This is especially pertinent given that the religion we decide to follow has more to do with demographics than any inherent truths to be found within the dogmas of a particular faith. Had any of these devout Christians been born in rural India, Christianity would not be their faith, nor would it be had they been born to a remote tribe in Papua New Guinea. They may still believe in a God, or even multiple gods, but the choice of which dogma they follow would be entirely different. It is woefully easy to believe your faith is the correct one when you are born into a society where the majority follows that faith. Too often the sense of belonging and camaraderie is too overwhelming to even want to question what one believes, for doubting it might place you on the pariah list in a heartbeat. I doubt many parents present their children with the philosophies of all major religions - and even some minor ones - and allow the children to decide which faith is right for them, if any of them are. Instead, a combination of demographics, social pressures, parental expectations, and a desire to "fit in" plays more of a role in which religion is followed than the actual scriptures or dogmas involved. Belief in that comes later ... for one would have to already believe firmly in their religion before they can truly believe that the earth is 6,000 years old, for example.
|
|
Cj
Well-Known Member
Found!
Joined: Aug 27, 2011 12:17:21 GMT -5
Posts: 1,693
|
Post by Cj on Oct 12, 2011 14:44:04 GMT -5
And, in my opinion, that is a misintrepetation of faith. God is not asking you to believe in something that isn't based on anything. God is a God of knowledge, evidence and a sound mind, not the author of confusion. You could put forth all evidence i the world and still some will refuse to see.
Exactly! I think what happened, in large part, to religion is interpretation over the years by theologians with an agenda.
|
|
|
Post by femmefatale on Oct 12, 2011 14:47:28 GMT -5
I already know this. That's why I created a thread strictly for God Lovers.
PeaceAwww! And again FF, I didn't mean to single you out at all, you have been very sweet in this thread imho, I just saw the wording example is all. Thank You. I do try.
|
|
|
Post by femmefatale on Oct 12, 2011 14:49:44 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 4, 2024 10:27:46 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2011 14:52:36 GMT -5
FEAR is among the most powerful stimulations a person can experience, yet it is used so mundanely by every human institution under the sun, from parenting to advertising, from socializing with others to religion and politics. And to be afraid of someone or something will often change your life profoundly it that person is in a position of authority over you. Although a proper respect of one's fears can be healthy and counterbalancing, it can also become a powerful tool in the hands of unscrupulous leaders everywhere. When those wishing to dominate you are aware of what you are afraid of, they can use that human impulse against you, your will and your very soul in some of the most manipulative of compulsions known to man. Fear is a motivator. But, there are reasons to be fearful. You can pretend the wolf isn't at the door if you wish. There are real and valid reasons. But, God also said "Fear not" as He attempts to remove all your fears. In the Beatitudes, Christ told us to "cast our cares" , to not be anxious and so forth. Not only do I not fear the "wolf at the door", I don't believe there is a wolf. I have no need to fear. Wanting to do the right thing with a clear conscience and having a healthy respect for my fellow human beings is something I do without having to be threatened.
|
|
Cj
Well-Known Member
Found!
Joined: Aug 27, 2011 12:17:21 GMT -5
Posts: 1,693
|
Post by Cj on Oct 12, 2011 14:54:45 GMT -5
My point of contention is, and has always been, the adherence to a particular religion. One can believe in God and generally not get the Third Degree from me, but given the thousands of religions in the world, and the thousands more that once existed, picking just one and claiming it is the TRUTH has never sat well with me. This is especially pertinent given that the religion we decide to follow has more to do with demographics than any inherent truths to be found within the dogmas of a particular faith. Had any of these devout Christians been born in rural India, Christianity would not be their faith, nor would it be had they been born to a remote tribe in Papua New Guinea. They may still believe in a God, or even multiple gods, but the choice of which dogma they follow would be entirely different. It is woefully easy to believe your faith is the correct one when you are born into a society where the majority follows that faith. Too often the sense of belonging and camaraderie is too overwhelming to even want to question what one believes, for doubting it might place you on the pariah list in a heartbeat. I doubt many parents present their children with the philosophies of all major religions - and even some minor ones - and allow the children to decide which faith is right for them, if any of them are. Instead, a combination of demographics, social pressures, parental expectations, and a desire to "fit in" plays more of a role in which religion is followed than the actual scriptures or dogmas involved. Belief in that comes later ... for one would have to already believe firmly in their religion before they can truly believe that the earth is 6,000 years old, for example. Another inconsistency I found was the Catholic religion which attempted quite successfully to propagate their religion throughout the new world under the auspices of saving souls.
|
|
Shirina
Well-Known Member
Card carrying member of the Kitty Klub!!
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 23:15:55 GMT -5
Posts: 1,200
|
Post by Shirina on Oct 12, 2011 14:58:55 GMT -5
Atheism is by far the harder choice than being a believer in any religion, and perhaps doubly so when measured against Christianity. Not only do we not have a crutch to lean on whenever things go awry in our lives, we do not necessarily entertain the idea of a grandiose paradise awaiting us after death.
It is much easier and, in fact, much more desirable psychologically to believe that a benevolent super-being is watching us, guiding us, and who wants only the best for us. It is certainly easier, as old age approaches, to believe that we will be in a "better place" when we leave this one.
In addition, an atheist does not have organized churches and events to belong to or participate in. There is no sense of belonging for an atheist that comes with being a member of a church or religion ... so not only do atheists forfeit a paradise, we forfeit many benefits to religion here on earth.
One only makes such a decision when faith and belief has been quite thoroughly analyzed.
I do find it insulting and highly irritating when Christians whine about atheists trying to convert them when atheists can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Christian looking to impose their "values" onto everyone else. Most of the time, you never hear about it - like the hundreds, if not thousands, of times Christians try to get books banned from public and school libraries. One Christian at a library where I worked was herself banned from the library because she would literally come in and deface/destroy books that depicted any form of nudity - such as books showing classical art.
Then there are the street corner mobs who have no qualms about trapping you at a red light and barraging you with an unwanted sermon as you sit there in your car, powerless to escape it (fortunately my loud car stereo served as my personal escape).
Or we could go to the macro level such as the American Family Association and One Million Moms who have 35 pages on their website listing hundreds of shows and television commercials they want taken off the air ... and not for swearing or nudity, but for committing blasphemy! In other words, if a show has an atheist character practicing his atheism, it is blasphemy and needs to be banned.
And do we even need to mention the horrifically illegal state constitutions defining marriage as between a man and a woman? I have to remind myself that I live in America when I see congressmen and women citing the Bible as justification for such amendments. Have we suddenly become a theocracy without my knowledge? And since when can religion be used as justification for a state amendment when it clearly violates the US Constitution?
Oooh, no. No more "atheists are trying to convert people" nonsense. It rings hollow in my ears, and in the ears of anyone who really knows what's going on in this country.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 4, 2024 10:27:46 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2011 15:02:54 GMT -5
In addition, an atheist does not have organized churches and events to belong to or participate in. There is no sense of belonging for an atheist that comes with being a member of a church or religion ... so not only do atheists forfeit a paradise, we forfeit many benefits to religion here on earth. Um, yeah they do. I think is call a Bar. I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. My paradise is my family and my dear friends. I have a house filled with love and laughter. I must be doing something right.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 4, 2024 10:27:46 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2011 15:04:14 GMT -5
Oh what a bunch of BUNK. And, as a Christian i am not afraid of my beliefs or to discuss with atheistslol, is the irony of the above statement making anyone else chuckle...just a bit?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 4, 2024 10:27:46 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2011 15:05:01 GMT -5
I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. My paradise is my family and my dear friends. I have a house filled with love and laughter. I must be doing something right. Why are you arguing with me. Shira said she forfeited pardise, not me. Your version of paradise perhaps.
|
|
Shirina
Well-Known Member
Card carrying member of the Kitty Klub!!
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 23:15:55 GMT -5
Posts: 1,200
|
Post by Shirina on Oct 12, 2011 15:05:20 GMT -5
No, but it was brought to America by the European settlers. And how many native religions were pushed to near extinction because of it? Just ask the Native Americans, or for that matter, the Aztecs, all about how their religions were forcefully eradicated. And if you think they all willingly converted because they "saw the light," you need to read more history.
What a stupid thing to say. Let me guess, you think atheists are all alcoholics, drug addicts, and promiscuous nymphomaniacs, right? Is that what you really think, or are you just lashing out without thought or regard for the facts?
|
|
Tosh
Senior Member
Philosophy is dead.
Joined: Sept 15, 2011 11:24:54 GMT -5
Posts: 2,227
|
Post by Tosh on Oct 12, 2011 15:06:51 GMT -5
I resent that remark, fricks...snitz....hic....hic..or whatever your name is. ;D
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 4, 2024 10:27:46 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2011 15:07:18 GMT -5
Stay strong, Snerd! I know you can do it.
|
|
|
Post by femmefatale on Oct 12, 2011 15:07:22 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by femmefatale on Oct 12, 2011 15:07:51 GMT -5
Stay strong, Snerd! I know you can do it. She seems pretty darn strong to me.
|
|
Shirina
Well-Known Member
Card carrying member of the Kitty Klub!!
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 23:15:55 GMT -5
Posts: 1,200
|
Post by Shirina on Oct 12, 2011 15:09:31 GMT -5
If what I said is bunk, then I can only assume that what I said is in error. Would you like to take a crack and providing a counter-point or do you plan to "discuss" by making absolute declarations?
The difference between you and I is that if I claim that something is "bunk," I attempt to back it up with something more tangible than my "belief."
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 4, 2024 10:27:46 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2011 15:13:46 GMT -5
No, but it was brought to America by the European settlers. And how many native religions were pushed to near extinction because of it? Just ask the Native Americans, or for that matter, the Aztecs, all about how their religions were forcefully eradicated. And if you think they all willingly converted because they "saw the light," you need to read more history. What a stupid thing to say. Let me guess, you think atheists are all alcoholics, drug addicts, and promiscuous nymphomaniacs, right? Is that what you really think, or are you just lashing out without thought or regard for the facts? It was a very offensive thing to say. Play nice now, I thought all you religious people were supposed to be nice.
|
|
chiver78
Administrator
Current Events Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:04:45 GMT -5
Posts: 39,472
|
Post by chiver78 on Oct 12, 2011 15:17:24 GMT -5
Rarely have I found that level of conversation between believers and non-believers. As I've said in one of numerous unremarked posts I've written on this thread, religion is non-negotiable even in discussion. They really don't want to discuss the merits of their faith, for doing so would require them to discuss the merits of their core being. It is what I have always found dangerous about religion; a person often cannot extricate themselves from it even temporarily. Thus challenging religious belief is the same thing as challenging them personally. Thus discussions like this often result in believers lashing out or drowning out atheists with heaps of "praise the lords" and other platitudes. I saw this just last week on a thread about astrology. I'd said that I can't explain why I believe in astrology any more than a Christian can explain why he believes what he does, and did any Christians want to take a swing at it. <crickets> and when I asked a second time, the single reply that came back was snippy and condescending.
|
|
Shirina
Well-Known Member
Card carrying member of the Kitty Klub!!
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 23:15:55 GMT -5
Posts: 1,200
|
Post by Shirina on Oct 12, 2011 15:18:03 GMT -5
If it was meant in jest, then I apologize.
It's just that I have heard from MANY believers that morality comes from a belief in God, ergo, atheists are all immoral and relish in non-stop debauchery.
I am a bit prickly on that line of reasoning.
I'm actually a major teetotaler though I might have a beer in a social setting.
|
|