Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Nov 1, 2011 13:43:38 GMT -5
Which is why faith and reason so often cannot co-exist despite the claims of someone else on this thread.
An interesting observation in the research that I do is that the existence of God always has to play a factor. In other words, scientists, researchers, and authors always have to leave a little wriggle-room in their theories to allow for God - even if they have to shoehorn it in. It's almost a knee-jerk defensive move to a) not anger all the believers and to b) have their theories more widely accepted.
Now, when scientists, researchers, and authors have to nail square pegs into round holes just to appease religion, the idea of faith and reason holding hands and skipping together through a flower-filled meadow doesn't seem all that likely.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2011 14:01:48 GMT -5
Which is why faith and reason so often cannot co-exist despite the claims of someone else on this thread. An interesting observation in the research that I do is that the existence of God always has to play a factor. In other words, scientists, researchers, and authors always have to leave a little wriggle-room in their theories to allow for God - even if they have to shoehorn it in. It's almost a knee-jerk defensive move to a) not anger all the believers and to b) have their theories more widely accepted. Now, when scientists, researchers, and authors have to nail square pegs into round holes just to appease religion, the idea of faith and reason holding hands and skipping together through a flower-filled meadow doesn't seem all that likely.
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Nov 1, 2011 18:41:48 GMT -5
Evening all, hope you are all well.
FF, please tell good old Rick that I am a lovely lovely guy, his displays of animosity are quite amusing but totally unfounded.
Snicks,
I have watched countless lectures and debates from Christian apologists ranging from young earth creationists to biblical literalists. Each and every one of them can not answer the same two questions I have asked on this thread.
Why is the bible true and why do you reject basic high school science ?
None of their explanations or proof contain any evidence or logic, the two most important requirements in determining truth and knowledge. I want to repeat this statistic, none, not on, this is not some minor discrepancy, there is no grounds for a reasonable doubt.
Every single physical or supernatural claim in the bible is considered by most scientists and historians as false. If creationism was taught as an alternative theory in our education system, there would be literally riots on the streets. We do not need a constitution to separate church and state, the vast majority of British people demand it.
Take the resurrection as just one example, Christian apologists put forward one piece of evidence, a book written by the followers of Jesus called the NT ?
These scriptures were written by religious zealots, volunteering to be a persecuted Christian under the brutal fist of Rome requires a certain fanaticism.
They were unauthored and not eye witness accounts, they have been altered and extrapolated on by countless biased scribes, they are copies of copies of stories of stories. Can you imagine how accurate this story was after 30 years of oral evangelizing ?
As for the evidence in the scriptures, the tomb was empty is not evidence of resurrection, it is evidence that Jesus body was not there, that is all. Anecdotal conjecture about 500 witnesses from a person who was not there, conflicting accounts and new endings being added etc etc. The Romans recorded mundane events meticulously, yet no record of any execution never mind resurrection claims.
Here is my 3rd question Snicks, if a Christian accepts this low level proof and evidence to believe then you must also believe the Koran is true and a historically accurate book.
Do you consider the Quran to be true ?
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Post by femmefatale on Nov 1, 2011 18:53:14 GMT -5
Hi Tosh! Nice seeing you. I really have no control over how Rick feels. I think you re a relatively nice guy or else I wouldn't say hello and goodbye every day. I realize we definitely have different points of view on God, so I feel it's best to not stay over here and hash it out with anyone. Know what I mean? Simply isn't worth it to me. I don't think there is anything or anyone that will ever convince you that God indeed exists, and I don't think you can make we believers belive he DOES NOT exist, so with that being said...I will just speak to you cordially and leave you and whomever else wants to fight about this matter to yourselves. No offense.
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Post by femmefatale on Nov 1, 2011 18:58:36 GMT -5
Hi Rick!
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Post by femmefatale on Nov 1, 2011 19:16:47 GMT -5
Hi Rick! Hi Femm, Looking good You like my new look, eh? She's one of my fave Musicians. Sassy and wild. But of course, I'm nothing like that.
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Nov 1, 2011 19:16:52 GMT -5
Lost your faith ? ;D
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Nov 1, 2011 19:19:01 GMT -5
Is the wedding off ? ;D
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Post by femmefatale on Nov 1, 2011 19:21:21 GMT -5
Tosh? Proposal? So soon? ;D
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Nov 1, 2011 19:34:13 GMT -5
I need scientific proof. I'm trying to be objective here Excellent, it seems my job is done. Peace, welcome to the world of critical thinking.
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Post by femmefatale on Nov 1, 2011 19:40:41 GMT -5
I need scientific proof. I'm trying to be objective here Excellent, it seems my job is done. Peace, welcome to the world of critical thinking. Oh Brother!
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Nov 1, 2011 21:08:44 GMT -5
Oh I get it you want proof, I exist because I say I exist ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D,
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Post by femmefatale on Nov 1, 2011 21:16:14 GMT -5
Hi Boys!
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Post by femmefatale on Nov 1, 2011 21:40:27 GMT -5
Wassup Snerd?
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Post by femmefatale on Nov 1, 2011 21:56:09 GMT -5
You did it Snerd!! And you have the sunglasses like me...You go girl! ;D
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Post by femmefatale on Nov 1, 2011 21:56:32 GMT -5
Peeps going to think we're twins now. Lol
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Post by femmefatale on Nov 1, 2011 22:04:37 GMT -5
Am i your evil twin or are you my evil twin? Bwaaahhhhaaa!!! I'm the good one.
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Post by femmefatale on Nov 1, 2011 22:09:28 GMT -5
I hope i didn't lose my blue spiky ball though. I will have to keep that in reserve as that reflects the real me. For now, i get to put on my Gaga hookah pumps! Mwahaha! You should lose the last one I told you I liked. That one's hot and sassy! ;D
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Post by femmefatale on Nov 1, 2011 22:10:33 GMT -5
Message deleted by femmefatale.
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Nov 2, 2011 6:31:56 GMT -5
I give you the same proof you accept for the bible, my word is proof enough. Critical thinkers must be if nothing else consistent.
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Nov 2, 2011 7:06:39 GMT -5
Snicks, historians do not accept the gospels as eye witness accounts, they do not accept the gospels as contemporary accounts, they do not accept the gospels as original accounts and there are no other documented accounts that corroborate the NT accounts.
All 4 of these criteria are standard prerequisites for establishing historical validity, the NT fails all 4 tests.
Put your case to me and we will discuss it, telling me to read books from biased Christian apologetics is not evidence of the historical accuracy of the NT.
You have read the NT, give it your best shot, explain to me how the accounts in Mark and John can possibly be both true ? I know witness testimony can vary in some details but the only commonality between the two is the name Jesus.
Are you aware the oldest Greek manuscript in existence is dated around 250 bce, some 2 centuries after the events it describes ?
The NT states John was illiterate, the gospel of John was written at the end of the first century in sophisticated Greek, how can anyone suggest this is an original eye witness account ?
You seem to be saying the NT is true because some crackpot says it is true, this is not much of a defense in my eyes.
Anyone who links UFOs and Satan is mentally ill.
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Post by jarhead1976 on Nov 2, 2011 7:17:22 GMT -5
3 eye witnesses enough?
The Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, appeared six times to three shepherd children ("The Three Seers") near the town of Fatima, Portugal between May 13 and October 13, 1917. Appearing to the children, the Blessed Virgin told them that She had been sent by God with a message for every man, woman and child living in our century. Coming at a time when civilization was torn asunder by war and bloody violence, She promised that Heaven would grant peace to all the world if Her requests for prayer, reparation and consecration were heard and obeyed. "If My requests are granted ... there will be peace" Our Lady of Fatima explained to the children that war is a punishment for sin and warned that God would further castigate the world for its disobedience to His Will by means of war, hunger and the persecution of the Church, the Holy Father and the Catholic Faithful. God's Mother prophesied that Russia would be God's chosen "instrument of chastisement," spreading the "errors" of atheism and materialism across the earth, fomenting wars, annihilating nations and persecuting the Faithful everywhere. "If My requests are not granted, Russia will spread its errors throughout the world, raising up wars and persecutions against the Church. The good will be martryed, the Holy Father will suffer much and various nations will be annihilated." In all Her appearances at Fatima, the Blessed Mother repeatedly emphasized the necessity of praying the Rosary daily, of wearing the Brown Scapular of Mount Carmel and of performing acts of reparation and sacrifice. To prevent the terrible chastisement at the hands of Russia and to convert "that poor nation", Our Lady requested the solemn public Consecration of Russia to Her Immaculate Heart by the Pope and all the Catholic bishops of the world. She also asked that the Faithful practice a new devotion of reparation on the first Saturday of five consecutive months ("The Five First Saturdays")
The heart of Our Lady's Message to the world is contained in what has come to be called the "Secret" which She confided to the three child seers in July 1917. The Secret actually consists of three parts, the first two of which have been publicly revealed. The first part of the Secret was a horrifying Vision of hell "where the souls of poor sinners go" and contained an urgent plea from Our Lady for acts of prayer and sacrifice to save souls. The second part of the Secret specifically prophesied the outbreak of World War II and contained the Mother of God's solemn request for the Consecration of Russia as a condition for world peace. It also predicted the inevitable triumph of Her Immaculate Heart following Russia's consecration and the conversion "of that poor nation" to the Catholic Faith.
The last part of the Secret (often called the "Third Secret") has not yet been made public, but was written down by Lucy Dos Santos, the last living Fatima seer, in 1944 and has been in the possession of the Holy See since 1957. Most informed sources speculate that this portion of the Secret concerns chaos in the Catholic Church, predicting widespread apostasy and a loss of faith beginning in the seventh decade of the 20th Century
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2011 7:39:46 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2011 7:55:42 GMT -5
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Nov 2, 2011 9:19:49 GMT -5
Jarhead,
I reject your 3 eye witness testimonies on sanity grounds, dead people do not talk.
Snicks,
Read back, my comment on mental illness was directed at those who think UFOs are Satanic, it was not as you indicated directed at those who are religious.
Historians establish what is historically true regardless of their beliefs, it is an objective process, Geisler is not objective, he builds his case around his beliefs.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2011 9:25:44 GMT -5
Why all the secrecy anyway? 1970 was 40 years ago for crying out loud! Whatever it is should have happened by now. 1970 was the year I was born. You don't think I could have anything to do with it, do you?!?!?!
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Tosh
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Post by Tosh on Nov 2, 2011 9:32:21 GMT -5
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Post by jarhead1976 on Nov 2, 2011 9:32:44 GMT -5
Of course you would Tosh. Proof is not to your liking , so you reject it. As smart as you seem to be your arguments lack even less facts then Ive presented in reply to all your outlandish statements. For such an esteemed historian your lack of knowledge is , well lacking. Still waiting on the location of that "nurturing gene" found in our DNA you say you have found ... lol ....Keep pushing the snake oil.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2011 9:41:40 GMT -5
From The Harvard Mahoney Neuroscience Institute: A gene for nurturing Scientists tracking physical events in animals all the way to their genetic origins are starting to turn up intriguing insights into behavior. One investigation has found a gene, in the family called fos, that prompts adult animals to take care of the young.
Fos genes were speculated to play a critical role in trained responses of the nervous system. For example, activated by sensory perception of daily light cycles, a fos gene turns on in a brain region called the "suprachiasmatic nucleus" (known to the jet-lagged and to shift workers as the body's circadian clock).
Now Mike Greenberg, Jennifer Brown and their colleagues at Harvard Medical School have shown for the first time that a fos gene, fos-B induces a mother mouse to gather in the nest and feed newborn pups. In a series of experiments, Greenberg's group mutated the fos-B gene so that it was no longer expressed and found that the mutation led to a loss of nurturing behavior. The mice that lack the fos-B gene developed normally except, when the mothers gave birth to pups, they ignored them. All the newborns would die within a day, unless fostered to a normal mother, where they then thrived.
Greenberg says that nurturing behavior seems to be "experience dependent." Repeated exposure to newborn pups induces fos-B and dependent-nurturing behavior in adults both male and female. However, just after a normal mother has given birth to pups, the nurturing response is primed by hormones in the hypothalamus, so that the mother takes proper care of her offspring.
So, since fos genes are put in play by neurotransmitters, Greenberg's group is now trying to identify the hormone that gives fos-B the critical signal to activate the nurturing neuronal circuitry. Having the hormonal protein would pave the way to learning how to make those neurons fire more effectively.
Greenberg says the findings might be relevant to the human condition, but that the research is along way yet from showing very much about how.
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Post by jarhead1976 on Nov 2, 2011 9:54:10 GMT -5
Should this be titled " Of Mice and Men" Beer? Because the genetics is not even close. " Experience dependent" as in learned behavior, not genetic.
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