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Post by privateinvestor on Jul 23, 2011 8:34:41 GMT -5
You can argue about marriage till your blue in the face. Marriage is simply NOT a govt institution but an institution ordained by God. It wasn't a creation of the State. Now be prepared for some pushback by our Atheist Members here as always, I guess... But just do as I try to do...IGNORE, IGNORE & then move on to other topics...seems to be working OK
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humok
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Post by humok on Jul 23, 2011 8:42:22 GMT -5
Well mmhmm.....just what do you think our Laws are based on....maybe you think they were dreamed up from the depths of mans own perverse mind and will. It is quite evident that not everybody believes as snerdley and many others or we would not even be debating this.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 23, 2011 8:56:10 GMT -5
Our laws are based on what human beings need to survive in society, humok. Murder is wrong because it threatens survival, as does drunken driving, armed robbery, and any number of other crimes. They're also based on basic matters of property ownership; ergo, theft is illegal. People must be able to live together as a societal whole. That cannot be done unless certain rules are in place. To think laws might come from something perverse in man is ... well, it's ludicrous. There's nothing perverse about law. Law is logical and necessary to protect and advance society as a whole.
There's no way you'll ever convince me our laws are based on the bible, humok. You might believe that and that's fine. I'm very happy for you. Spiritual beliefs are important to people and should be respected. However, one cannot demand that others believe as they believe. That's simply not going to happen. I won't try to convince you of anything; nor, will I argue the point of law with you. You're welcome to believe as you wish. What you (or Snerdley) are not welcome to do is tell me what to believe.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 23, 2011 9:03:03 GMT -5
..... just what do you think our Laws are based on....maybe you think they were dreamed up from the depths of mans own perverse mind and will. ... Actually our laws are based on something that was dreamed up from the depths of man's own perverse mind and will
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 23, 2011 9:05:13 GMT -5
Heh. Well, billis, I guess in some perverse way, that's right. If man weren't perverse we wouldn't need laws, eh? ;D
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Jul 23, 2011 10:30:33 GMT -5
What is the big deal over Bachmmann's husband and counseling? Was he counseling people against their will at gunpoint? If people want to change the direction and course of their lives with the help of counseling, so what? Counseling involves the applications of evidence based theory and techniques. "Conversion therapy", otherwise known as "reparative therapy" is not evidence based, is potentially harmful, is not recognized as a theraputic intervention by the APA and is considered unethical practice in the psychological community. When a client shows up to this type of a "clinic" they are often desperate and wiling to submit themselves to anyone who might have a cure. Likewise for family members. To offer this "therapy" as a "cure" or "help" of any kind is taking advantage at best.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Jul 23, 2011 10:35:51 GMT -5
You can argue about marriage till your blue in the face. Marriage is simply NOT a govt institution but an institution ordained by God. It wasn't a creation of the State. You should probably do some reading on the history of marriage.Marriage in it's earliest beginnings of recorded history had nothing to do with God or love, instead it was about wealth, and keeping it in the family. It remained tat way for many, many centuries.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jul 23, 2011 10:40:22 GMT -5
Our laws are based on what human beings need to survive in society, humok. Murder is wrong because it threatens survival, as does drunken driving, armed robbery, and any number of other crimes. They're also based on basic matters of property ownership; ergo, theft is illegal. People must be able to live together as a societal whole. That cannot be done unless certain rules are in place. To think laws might come from something perverse in man is ... well, it's ludicrous. There's nothing perverse about law. Law is logical and necessary to protect and advance society as a whole. There's no way you'll ever convince me our laws are based on the bible, humok. You might believe that and that's fine. I'm very happy for you. Spiritual beliefs are important to people and should be respected. However, one cannot demand that others believe as they believe. That's simply not going to happen. I won't try to convince you of anything; nor, will I argue the point of law with you. You're welcome to believe as you wish. What you (or Snerdley) are not welcome to do is tell me what to believe. Well, let me say, there is no way you'll ever convince me our laws are not based on the Bible. You might believe they are not, but that does not make you correct. Then again, if you have not read the Good Book, I can see where you might believe our laws are not based on the Bible, or God forbid, Jewish Law. I have even seen arguments here by the left claiming Jefferson even used Muslim law in writing the Constitution.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Jul 23, 2011 10:54:10 GMT -5
"Well, let me say, there is no way you'll ever convince me our laws are not based on the Bible. You might believe they are not, but that does not make you correct. Then again, if you have not read the Good Book, I can see where you might believe our laws are not based on the Bible, or God forbid, Jewish Law. I have even seen arguments here by the left claiming Jefferson even used Muslim law in writing the Constitution."
Look up the word "Jurisprudence".
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Jul 23, 2011 11:19:02 GMT -5
Marriage is simply NOT a govt institution but an institution ordained by God.
If anything were 'ordained' by God it is that men have their naughty bits and women have theirs. From the drive to put those bits together or prevent the unwanted advances of another's bits, just about all laws sprang.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 23, 2011 11:24:10 GMT -5
Marriage is simply NOT a govt institution but an institution ordained by God. If anything were 'ordained' by God it is that men have their naughty bits and women have theirs. From the drive to put those bits together or prevent the unwanted advances of another's bits, just about all laws sprang. That is bringing it down to the basics.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 23, 2011 14:29:49 GMT -5
Our laws are based on what human beings need to survive in society, humok. Murder is wrong because it threatens survival, as does drunken driving, armed robbery, and any number of other crimes. They're also based on basic matters of property ownership; ergo, theft is illegal. People must be able to live together as a societal whole. That cannot be done unless certain rules are in place. To think laws might come from something perverse in man is ... well, it's ludicrous. There's nothing perverse about law. Law is logical and necessary to protect and advance society as a whole. There's no way you'll ever convince me our laws are based on the bible, humok. You might believe that and that's fine. I'm very happy for you. Spiritual beliefs are important to people and should be respected. However, one cannot demand that others believe as they believe. That's simply not going to happen. I won't try to convince you of anything; nor, will I argue the point of law with you. You're welcome to believe as you wish. What you (or Snerdley) are not welcome to do is tell me what to believe. Well, let me say, there is no way you'll ever convince me our laws are not based on the Bible. You might believe they are not, but that does not make you correct. Then again, if you have not read the Good Book, I can see where you might believe our laws are not based on the Bible, or God forbid, Jewish Law. I have even seen arguments here by the left claiming Jefferson even used Muslim law in writing the Constitution. I'd never try to convince you, Value Buy. That's not my place and I know it. I have read the bible. Did that while still a teen. There were certain laws in place then, as there are now. Throughout history, those laws that have worked well for society have been retained, while those that became outdated, or didn't work well, have been dropped, or changed. There's nothing odd about correlations to Jewish law being found in today's law. It's to be expected.
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humok
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Post by humok on Jul 23, 2011 14:57:41 GMT -5
Angeld wrote: Marriage has been ever changing since recorded history. This idea that we are messing with something sacred that has been unchanged forever is a bunch of BS. Historically there have been same-sex marriages, polygamous marriages, even relatives marrying each other. So let's step down off the soap-box & stop pretending that today's idea of marriage is somehow what marriage has always historically been or something sacred that can't be changed. mmhmm wrote: There's no way you'll ever convince me our laws are based on the bible, humok. You might believe that and that's fine. I'm very happy for you. Spiritual beliefs are important to people and should be respected. However, one cannot demand that others believe as they believe. That's simply not going to happen. I won't try to convince you of anything; nor, will I argue the point of law with you. You're welcome to believe as you wish. What you (or Snerdley) are not welcome to do is tell me what to believe. There's no way you'll ever convince me our laws are based on the bible, humok. You might believe that and that's fine. I'm very happy for you. Spiritual beliefs are important to people and should be respected. However, one cannot demand that others believe as they believe. That's simply not going to happen. I won't try to convince you of anything; nor, will I argue the point of law with you. You're welcome to believe as you wish. What you (or Snerdley) are not welcome to do is tell me what to believe. Angel are you saying we justify a new law based on old perversions and that should make it acceptable?
mmhmm I see you at leasst admit that our laws are based on the religious laws of the Jews which were by the way handed to them from God. Ironic don't ya think!
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 23, 2011 15:05:00 GMT -5
... ... which were by the way handed to them from God. ... No they weren't.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 23, 2011 15:07:24 GMT -5
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humok
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Post by humok on Jul 23, 2011 15:07:53 GMT -5
prove it? hahahaha At leaset I have a book that says he did. What do you have that says he did not? Jewish Laws is what I stated about mmhmm's comment.
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humok
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Post by humok on Jul 23, 2011 15:11:06 GMT -5
10 commandments? ?and how many commandments did Jesus add?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 23, 2011 15:11:26 GMT -5
prove it? hahahaha At leaset I have a book that says he did. What do you have that says he did not? Jewish Laws is what I stated about mmhmm's comment. Yes, there are plenty of books that state there is no God to hand anything to anyone.
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humok
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Post by humok on Jul 23, 2011 15:15:46 GMT -5
One thing for sure...We are all free to think and beleive whatever we want!!!!!!!
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 23, 2011 15:16:06 GMT -5
10 commandments? ?and how many commandments did Jesus add?
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humok
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Post by humok on Jul 23, 2011 15:17:54 GMT -5
I have seen that and have to admit it was funny!!!!!
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 23, 2011 15:18:07 GMT -5
One thing for sure...We are all free to think and beleive whatever we want!!!!!!! True, however in this country you are not free to use the power of government force your religious beliefs on others.
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humok
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Post by humok on Jul 23, 2011 15:20:35 GMT -5
I am not a fanatic and like to laugh with the best of them and think God also has a sense of humor.. hELL HE MADE WOMAN DIDN'T HE.
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humok
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Post by humok on Jul 23, 2011 15:24:03 GMT -5
Hmmm...well even leaving God out of it you would be hard pressed to win this discussion based on the fact "Nature" has yet to make a way for two men or two women have children to raise.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 23, 2011 15:30:19 GMT -5
Two men and/or two women raise children every day, humok. They've been doing so for quite some time now.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 23, 2011 15:34:57 GMT -5
prove it? hahahaha At leaset I have a book that says he did. What do you have that says he did not? Jewish Laws is what I stated about mmhmm's comment. Jewish laws were there before they were written humok. They developed as a result of societies needs. The Jewish Law of which you speak is simply a compilation of the societal rules to which people of the time were expected to adhere. As billis said, there are plenty of books that deny the existence of God. So what? It doesn't really matter. You're as entitled to believe as I am to disbelieve. It's not I who questions that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2011 15:43:07 GMT -5
This is going to be hard to phrase but here it is:
Regardless of where laws came from (which is really a side point), we have to look at the laws on the books NOW in this COUNTRY. Our nations laws are (or at least should be) based on one of the written founding blocks of our country which is all men are created equal. The points that are argued here are 1. Everyone should be able to marry who they want to or 2. Every man should be able to marry any woman he wants to (but not men marring men etc). Which way you side on that really comes down to your religious believe. As pointed out before even though our country was founded on religious beliefs, our forefathers knew that it was a dangerous slope so they specifically wanted the separation of church & state.
So less try another tact with the all men are created equal (where people are splitting hairs about the men marring men thing). If you look at it that way, where does it stop? Could you sue someone because they wouldn't sell you a 1974 Vega for the same price someone else sold one? After all things wouldn't be equal then. Far our principle? Not really in todays society. Someone will sue someone else for reasons that most people wouldn't even think of.
If your going to narrow it down to make your point. Why can't someone else narrow it down even more (thus screwing you) to make their point. Where does it stop? I say it stops where 2 people in love can get married regardless of their sex.
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Tigerwife3
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Post by Tigerwife3 on Jul 23, 2011 18:05:19 GMT -5
I ask again-Why not have church services called civil union blessings? That way we get rid of the term marriage and everyone is equal with civul union..
Why do we need two terms for the exact same thing?
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Tigerwife3
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Post by Tigerwife3 on Jul 23, 2011 18:06:09 GMT -5
Sorry-duplicate post.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Jul 23, 2011 18:31:09 GMT -5
"It isn't the same. "
Yes, it is. Frankly, I think all of it should be called "marriage" since that is what it is.
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