What to do when reason is not on the same page as

[Frugal Nurse]

Shanendoah:

My advice to Cawaiu is to listen to his wife, instead of using the opinions presented in this thread to argue his case to his wife. He seems to run to these boards any time there is an issue with his wife, looking for support for his arguments. I think that is completely disrespectful of his wife. The only two people who have any say on when they have children are Cawaiu and Mrs. Cawaiu. So instead of jumping on the YM bandwagon and badmouthing his wife for every difference of opinion, I am encouraging him to consider her point of view. Talk to her about it, not us. I would be terribly angry with my husband if he brought internet strangers' opinions into our disagreements. It just isn't how two adults who love and respect each other communicate, IMO.

[thyme4change]

I guess you need to speak in 1's and zeros, because there are only two emotions in frugal nurse's dictionary - positive and negative. There are no shades in between. Either something is awesomely great 100% woo hoo, or sucks monkey ass, might as well kill yourself. There is nothing that would present you with mixed emotions, or any emotion except full on good, or full on bad.

[sarcasticgirl]

Jul 8, 2011 16:56:05 GMT -5 Frugal Nurse said:

Jul 8, 2011 16:41:14 GMT -5 sarcasticgirl said:

is it not common place to have a nice sit-down conversation with your sig. other BEFORE you get married and discuss what you want and when you want it regarding kids?

that's what DH and I did... i figured, that's just what reasonable adults do.

This probably depends on how old you are when you get married. DH and I moved in together at 19, married at 21. At that point, we both agreed to having kids some day, and even had a time frame in mind of when "someday" should be, but at that age, it seemed like a lifetime away. I wasn't emotional about it then because I didn't care that much. If DH had wanted them then, I would have been fine with it, but it didn't hurt me not to have them either. It came to a point, though, that baby fever came over me in a big way, and that is when it became an issue.

ah i suppose that makes sense. I was married at 30 (no interest in marrying young) and at that point it was something we needed to pinpoint in years, i guess

[Frugal Nurse]

Sarcasticgir - I didn't literally mean that relief automatically = delight. And in my reply to you I remember conceding that what I meant is that relief is a positive emotion, which doesn't usually apply to the loss of a pregnancy. Yes, I understand what you are saying. I don't need any clarification.

[Frugal Nurse]

Thyme - I fully admitted that my personal experiences play a part in my opinions. That is typically how opinions are formed. Again, for the millionth time, I am not for or against Mr. and Mrs. Cawaiu having a baby. I am arguing for them to discuss it as a family, instead of getting opinions from strangers.

[steff]

i have watched a family member fight a loosing battle with cancer and be miserably sick and in pain... when they passed, i felt a sense of relief, because they are no longer hurting. was i delighted? ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY NOT!

Agree 100%. When my grampa with alzheimer's passed away, it was a relief. No one was happy, delighted, or joyful, but it was still a relief to all that he was at peace and no longer suffering.

[thyme4change]

It has been a busy week for this board. We can destroy 2 marriages in 6 days. Pretty impressive.

[zibazinski]

C's wife has SL's to the tune of 100k, hence the grand a month payment. They also have car loans, they also just moved to a 1 bedroom apt to try to save some money. That is not the way to have a baby. In the 3 year time, C has said the cars will be paid off and they could start house hunting plus his career could take a transfer, he has mentioned. Those SL's of hers are a stone around their necks. MAYBE her mom will pay them for them but just MAYBE she won't. Plus, she isn't going to want to go back to work so not only does he lose her income which they need, he still has her school loans to pay. Think Dark and Loop.

[moneymaven]

So, let's agree that your advice to cawiau (if I'm reading it right) is that if it is that much more emotionally important to his wife than it is to him, then he should seriously consider going along with her wishes.

I haven't read on yet, but what I think frugal is trying to say is not that Carl should just go along with what his wife wants, but to be considerate of where she is coming from and have a grown up conversation about it.

I have to agree that Carl really ought to be having more conversations with DW than us... there appears to be a great divide in their communication.

Further, everything gets blamed on their culture... I am not sure what culture it is? I come from a very proud family and culture plays a large role in how DH and I live our lives and raise DS, but that is the choice we have made.

[daylight]

Haitian.

[sarcasticgirl]

Jul 8, 2011 17:05:35 GMT -5 Frugal Nurse said:

Sarcasticgir - I didn't literally mean that relief automatically = delight. And in my reply to you I remember conceding that what I meant is that relief is a positive emotion, which doesn't usually apply to the loss of a pregnancy. Yes, I understand what you are saying. I don't need any clarification.

i told you my relief doesn't always mean delight... and you said "so that means relief is a negative emotion for you?"

THAT is why i was trying to explain that relief is not always POSITIVE and EQUALING DELIGHT

[thyme4change]

I don't think you realize how much your culture influences the way you think about life until you are torn from your culture and submersed in another, and are trying to explain to someone why something is important to you. My DH and I never refer to our culture as a reason for doing something or not doing something, unless we are comparing ourselves to someone who is from another culture and doing it differently.

Example - I never feel like I have to explain why the 2 of us lived in a 4 bedroom house, and my parents lived in a 4 bedroom house just a few minutes away. Then, I lived in the Mexican neighborhood, where we were the only people on the block that had a mere 2 people living in the house. Now that we are back in the euro-hood, guess what, plenty of single dwellers in houses, or just a couple.

[daylight]

Carl,

It really does stand out how you get to an anonymous message board to discuss such a life-altering event as actual child planning. You should take all advice seriously, in which posters suggested you talk this over with your wife. It's nice that you have asked us and all, but it should mainly be discussed between the two of you.

In the last topics I read from you, you just covered up whatever the actual problem was by saying that your DW is not that bad, sex is amazing and you are still young. A friend of mine told me the best advice she had ever heard about marriage: 70% of the problems in a marriage cannot be solved. Whether the marriage will work or not depends on how the husband and wife tolerate the unsolved problems. I often thought of this quote in relation of you. Maybe you and your wife really do love each other and it will be enough to deal with that 70%, which may or may not include the pregnancy issue.

To an outsider, it might seem that your wife got a degree with tons of SL and now she wants to get pregnant and probably not work for a while (not from this post, this is a general impression I got of her).

Her problems and your reactions seem to match each other. I really hope that you can grew together and not apart in the upcoming years.

[zibazinski]

BTW, if posters on a board can destroy a marriage, it wasn't strong to begin with. I think people come here to vent and to ask advice. I know I do and I don't always hear what I want to hear but it helps to get another point (or several) of view.

[Deleted]

carl - I think this topic could be a great way to align your financial goals. I'm serious. Sit down and talk with your wife about what she would like your family life to look like - spin out all her fantasies, price out her baby registry. I'm thinking that she will want to buy her baby nice things, take them to swim class, go to a nice daycare, maybe have a house, take 6 months maternity leave. Show her how much that would cost. Compromise with her - show her that if you guys crack down even harder on paying off debt that you could have a child sooner. Use her baby cravings to motivate you both towards your goals - debt payoff and a family.

edit: I think that your wife will be much more willing to wait if she understands that your hesitation comes because you take the role of fatherhood so seriously. I was surprised by what DH thought was required for him to be comfortable having a child but I was also really touched that it was so important to him.

[lazysundays]

DH and I were financially ready, but he just had doubts because he wanted to be sure he was ready...
We got a puppy first, before we even thought seriously about kids. I think the dog helped us learn about how responsible the other one would be around kids.. The getting up in middle of the night, and religiously staying to a schedule while potty training really tested us.
I knew he would be great with kids because he had been playing with my best friend's kids since DH and I met and her youngest was 1 years old.

When he knew he was ready= we were at a family gathering and he notices and commented that he tends to hold the puppy the same way his cousin was holding her newborn... I think he realized that he had been playing daddy already.

We had planned on going without birth control for 3 months to clean my system of drugs and make sure my uterine lining wouldn't be too thin from years of birth control.. So we had backup protection until 3 months had come up, and I said that we don't have to use anything today, right when we were being intimate.. he lost the mood and freaked and we used backup-- apparently, not good to mention such big stuff while being intimate....
anyway, he was ready, but had to mentally prepare... and as we tried we feared getting pregnant and feared being sterile. less than 2 months later baby was made. yeah, she's work and stress, but she's perfect. and she' daddy's girl. I swear he spends every day playing.

[steff]

Meh....all this over the top planning gets mind numbing. Hubby & I got knocked up....got married....I was bartending & had to quit that...we had 1 used car...1 income....scraped by at first.... kiddo is now 17 and everyone lived thru it and enjoyed it more than feared/hated/worried over it. You'll do what you need to do when you need to.

[Frugal Nurse]

Jul 8, 2011 18:48:13 GMT -5 steff said:

Meh....all this over the top planning gets mind numbing. Hubby & I got knocked up....got married....I was bartending & had to quit that...we had 1 used car...1 income....scraped by at first.... kiddo is now 17 and everyone lived thru it and enjoyed it more than feared/hated/worried over it. You'll do what you need to do when you need to.

Well, that sounds....special. Sorry, I like to plan for big, life changing events and enjoy them, not stress about them. That's just me though.

[saveinla]

Jul 8, 2011 18:48:13 GMT -5 steff said:

Meh....all this over the top planning gets mind numbing. Hubby & I got knocked up....got married....I was bartending & had to quit that...we had 1 used car...1 income....scraped by at first.... kiddo is now 17 and everyone lived thru it and enjoyed it more than feared/hated/worried over it. You'll do what you need to do when you need to.

[steff]

life changing events and enjoy them, not stress about them.

You did read in my post where I said that we enjoyed it much more than worrying about it? Because I did already cover that.

Sometimes you simply can't plan everything down to the bed linen's you want to get knocked up on. Sometimes shit happens and you roll with it. And if you aren't overly anal about every little detail being perfect, you can have a great time rolling with it.

[Malarky]

Jul 8, 2011 18:48:13 GMT -5 steff said:

Meh....all this over the top planning gets mind numbing. Hubby & I got knocked up....got married....I was bartending & had to quit that...we had 1 used car...1 income....scraped by at first.... kiddo is now 17 and everyone lived thru it and enjoyed it more than feared/hated/worried over it. You'll do what you need to do when you need to.

Got married, got pregnant. lost that baby. Got pregnant, bought a house. Oldest is 17. There was not nearly the angst involved that many of you have experienced.

Karma, steff.

No student loans until DH went back to school after we already had two kids.

[Deleted]

Sometimes you simply can't plan everything down to the bed linen's you want to get knocked up on. Sometimes shit happens and you roll with it. And if you aren't overly anal about every little detail being perfect, you can have a great time rolling with it.

I'm sure that's part of the problem. Cawiau has shown himself to be conscientious and caring - he'll be a great father. That probably makes it hard to wait.

[muttleynfelix]

Jul 8, 2011 16:41:14 GMT -5 sarcasticgirl said:

is it not common place to have a nice sit-down conversation with your sig. other BEFORE you get married and discuss what you want and when you want it regarding kids?

that's what DH and I did... i figured, that's just what reasonable adults do.

Yes it is, but that doesn't mean you don't change your mind. DH and I had said before we were married that we would have 2 kids starting around year 4 or so of our marriage and have them 2 years apart.... a year and a half later, DH was like man I don't know if I can be a Dad. My decisions was that we would be happy with or without kids. He came around on his own and DS was born a couple months after our 4th anniversery. For the first year of DS's life, we were like we are NEVER EVER doing this again. Now we are starting to think ok maybe we can do another kid, but it isn't going to be a 2 year age difference since DS is 17 months old now. And that is fine. I think a 3 to 3.5 year age difference will work better for us or maybe DS will be an only. But the point is, you may change your mind. Having kids is freakin scary!

[Miss Tequila]

Jul 8, 2011 13:40:59 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jul 8, 2011 13:39:42 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Don't people only resort to that after they have been trying for a few months and have not had any success?

MOst normal people do, but I think there are some type A's who do that immediately.

I tried for 3 years and never got to that point. I just took the drugs and hoped for the best. Lemme tell you, scheduled sex is just awful.

LOL! I admit it, I'm a Type A and I was charting from the get go. I wound-up with fertility issues and my gyn was thrilled at the detailed records I kept!!!LOL

[Miss Tequila]

Jul 8, 2011 16:21:19 GMT -5 Frugal Nurse said:

Jul 8, 2011 16:06:13 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

Ummmm....there are lots of people who feel relieved after miscarriages. Heck, there are LOTS of people who get abortions. An unwanted pregnancy can make life really difficult for people - being happy that an unwanted pregnancy ended is perfectly normal if you didn't want to be a parent in the first place.

Personally, I've never had an abortion and I probably wouldn't. But, if I were to accidentally get preggo now (DH had a vasectomy after DC#2 so it's unlikely) I would argue with all my heart to give the baby away to a loving couple. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to be a parent. In fact, I'd argue it is better to be honest about it and do something about it than to have the child and neglect it because you aren't cut out to make all the sacrifices parenting entails. We know several fantastic couples who cannot have children. It would give me so much joy to give them a baby.

We will have to respectfully "agree to disagree". I cannot fathom how a human being can feel relief at the death of their perfectly healthy unborn child, even when that child might not have been wanted. I can understand giving a kid up for adoption, my parents adopted my older brother, but it just seems un-human to me to delight in the death of anyone, especially one's own child.

I realize there are people out there who see things differently than I do, they aren't going to convince me that they are right, just as I won't convince them that I am right. It is just one of those topics that gets into an unending argument.

I am very much pro-life and would never ever consider an abortion..my husband is very much pro-choice and he absolutely does not want anymore children (he is 41 and our children are 12 and 10)...I honestly believe if i were to get pregnant and miscarry, he would be relieved.

[Deleted]

OP here.

The issue is not that I don't want kids. I want kids, I always did: the issue is when I want kids. Also, I am not using this board to force my wife to do anything (I can't force my wife to do anything she doesn't want to do period) , I am just putting something out there.

Also we have talked about it. She wanted to start in 2 years, I wanted to wait 5. She said no way in hell she would have her first child when she is over 31 (maybe her second, but she wants to have a kid before she turns 30) and I said no way in hell I am having a kid in 2 years since I don't think we will be financially ready (I want the current credit card and my car loan gone before that).

We both agree that I should also get my MBA prior to that and we came to the decision that 3 years would be appropriate:
- Will allow me to get my MBA
- She would be working 3 years in her current field, so enough work experience
- Credit card debt and my car loan will be gone so an extra $1,000/month
- Savings will be in good standing

Also, that is in 3 years we would start trying.

[Deleted]

I can't really answer all the questions but I will try:

- We don't care about our culture or parents. If we did, I would have knocked up my wife 3 years ago and do like our cousins:
--> I got married August 23rd, my cousin August 24th. She just had her second child last week (a girl), we are still not trying for our first.
--> My wife cousin got married October 4th of last year and just had a baby July 1rst.

Basically in our culture, you are expected or it is the norm to have a child within your first year of marriage, they call it "blessing" the marriage or in their eyes making it official. For Haitians you get married for one reason and one reason only: have kids.

It's only recently, my generation and the one before me, that some of us started braking from that and waiting awhile before having kids. We are still looked at as if we are weird.

Conclusion: We are doing US, not what my family/friends or culture expects.

-> My wife is not trying to force me into knocking her up. As she said, she is completely on board with waiting. It makes logical sense, her head tells her to wait. But her heart tells her to have a kid. Like I said in my first post: she is currently battling it out. Maybe in a week or two she will be over it or maybe not.
--> Like WBBG said, maybe it was just a case of her thinking out loud. I wanted to talk about it because it was the second time she mention it in one week and both time it was before & during sex. I thought it was best if we talk about it instead of letting it bother her.

So that prompt me to start this thread: what are you to do as my wife put it when "your brain tells you one thing and your heart tells you the opposite".

We talked about it last night and again tonight, so far we have decided to wait because we both want to wait. But yes if it really means so much to her that in a few weeks/months she still can't forget about it and her hormones are kicking we might need to reconsider our plan and maybe change course.

[bobosensei]

Jul 8, 2011 13:07:11 GMT -5 moneymaven said:

Saturday night, right in between of you know what, my wife said: Why don't we get pregnant?

BTW, your wife is a genius. I can get DH to say yes to anything while in the midst of sex.

Me too. Works so much better than trying to withhold sex to get your way.

[achelois]

I am 59, so I suppose things have changed a lot since I was young and having children. I was one of seven children my parents had, so I was used to caring for little ones. We were not rich, so not focused on "nice things", although we had what we needed--decent clothes(although not tons of them) and decent food and a rain tight roof over our heads.

When I had my kids, we incorporated them rather seamlessly into our lives without a lot of the fuss, muss and bother that seems to go on these days. I don't remember their having been all that expensive--at least not until they became teens :-).

I sometimes think people make it harder on them selves than it has to be.

[qofcc]

We talked about it last night and again tonight, so far we have decided to wait because we both want to wait. But yes if it really means so much to her that in a few weeks/months she still can't forget about it and her hormones are kicking we might need to reconsider our plan and maybe change course.

If you guys are both on board with waiting 3 years, then maybe you can keep her mind focused on that goal by doing a countdown and having some milestones. Kind of like a long engagement before planning a wedding where you get to think about every detail and get excited about it. If you talk to her about your budget, start calling things like "credit card payment soon to be allocated to daycare" or "car payment soon to be allocated to diapers & formula", etc. Let her daydream about the things she wants to do and have and show her what they cost and let her start saving for those things. Let her think about where the 3 of you want to be living with a baby and what that might cost. Let her price out a working wardrobe of maternity clothes and start saving up for that. Do some couple things that would be difficult to do with a baby around and mention that you are doing this now because after you have a family it will be a long time before you can do it again, so both of you get to enjoy the waiting period. Maybe even label her birth control packets 36, 35, 34, etc. Let her know you're just as excited to have a baby as she is, you just want it to start happening after you guys accomplish certain goals. Maybe that will help get her on board with more of your goals.