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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2011 11:37:45 GMT -5
Does it offend you on political grounds? Why?
I've been having an argument with a fellow homseschooler who unschools. She prefers a Sudbury schooling model, and methods which are child focused, do not make any requirement on the child except what the child chooses for himself, and everyone in the school is given a vote, kids and adults alike, about things that like rules and goals, and resources are shared/allocated.
I am trying to explain to her that this is actually a very SOCIALIST form of schooling she prefers...
She insists she is libertarian because she dislikes compulsory education laws.... because no one should ever have to do anything they don't want to do.... and children's rights to not go to school if they don't want to should be respected.
I'm pointing out that 1) compulsory education laws do not say WHAT kind of education you must give your child, you can homeschool, unschool, private school, public school... it only says that you must offer some type of opportunity for children to learn and develop... and that this actually PROTECTS the child's rights... because parents cannot ignore/abuse/neglect the rights of children to be exposed to educational opporutnities.
IF compulsory education laws said you MUST attend public school... then I would be against them. If homeschooling laws stopped people from homeschooling... then i'd be against them... but given that I know people who strict curriculum, relaxed homeschool and unschool in PA... our laws are NOT interfering with our rights to homeschool... just protecting children to ensure that they are getting some kind of educational opportunities...
At the same time that she is saying that parents should have absolute authority... with no compulsory ed laws... she is trying to make the argumetn that sending a child to school is akin to abuse/neglect... because no child should be forced to do anything they don't want to to.
I think she sounds more like an anarchist than a libertarian....
So... contribute... please....
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Jul 4, 2011 11:49:35 GMT -5
I think no compulsory ed laws are dangerous, your friend might have her children's best interest at heart which is in alignment with society but not all do. I know from reading about this, it is for protecting children from things like religious groups who do not believe girls should have an education and in the case of unschooling to make sure they can at least read and write at some point. I agree unschooling is not very libertarian I knew a family of unschoolers very socialist leaning toward anarchists, but that is 1 family. From what I understand there are no rules no guidelines little discipline so pretty much anarchy.
I will add I have no problem with home schooling, unschooling not so sure. You have to be pretty careful to make it effective. The family I knew son showed obvious traits of autism, same as my son did. To expect an autistic child to learn on their own with little guidance or expert help is not the best idea in my opinion.
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Malarky
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Post by Malarky on Jul 4, 2011 11:56:21 GMT -5
At the same time that she is saying that parents should have absolute authority... with no compulsory ed laws... she is trying to make the argumetn that sending a child to school is akin to abuse/neglect... because no child should be forced to do anything they don't want to to.
Wow, I wonder what bedtime is like in her house? I'm a firm believer that children thrive on structure. Whether you choose to send your kid to public school or school them at home, kids don't know enough to choose what to learn. Or to discern what might be useful. I never would have believed that I would use algebra every day back when I was complaining about having to the class. I'm glad someone made me.
The "no child should be forced to do anything they don't want to" is scary as hell. Where do they learn a sense of responsibility?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2011 11:57:54 GMT -5
Bedtime in her house is kids sleep wherever they want, whenever they want, including with her... she was highly offended by the Go the F@#$ to Sleep book...
Why do i bother? grrrr... we are not going to agree... i just want to make sure i'm not totally crazy here... and politically speaking trying to align her claims to libertarianism with her other statements...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 4, 2011 12:03:53 GMT -5
For me, a key element is that your child is my fellow United States citizen. There is a difficult balancing act between the rights of a parent to raise their child as they see fit and the obligation that they have to raise our fellow citizen. I believe that generally our society is doing a reasonable job of balancing them.
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Jul 4, 2011 12:05:43 GMT -5
This model is democratic, not socialist. Socialism doesn't lean toward anarchy.
I don't have a position on "unschooling." Mandatory education laws are necessary to avoid child abuse/neglect. "Permissive" parenting [which is what I see here] is possible, just not easy and not possible for many parents/families. I do think that parents should have maximum freedom to raise their children as they choose, but lawlessness and anarchy aren't very practical.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2011 12:09:01 GMT -5
It pretends to be democratic ... well actualy is democratic... but in many of the ways that our founding fathers rejected when they made us a republic, and not a democracy. It is a very socialist model.
Actually anarchy IS a form of socialism, combined with liberalism.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 4, 2011 12:12:07 GMT -5
It pretends to be democratic... and is democratic... in many of the ways that our founding fathers rejected when they made us a republic, and not a democracy. It is a very socialist model. Actually anarchy IS a form of socialism, combined with liberalism. Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are own by society. To use the term in this discussion is to miss use it entirely.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Jul 4, 2011 12:12:25 GMT -5
"I agree unschooling is not very libertarian I knew a family of unschoolers very socialist leaning toward anarchists, Socialism doesn't lean toward anarchy." Yeah I thought that after I wrote it but from what I can see they believe the state should provide for them, but not be restricted by any authoritive figure such as the state. You know the best of both worlds
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2011 12:18:40 GMT -5
I don't understand billlis... socialism is not just an economic system...
Still, in a sudbury school model the means of production are controled by the society.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 4, 2011 12:20:44 GMT -5
It's pretty obvious: when the government takes our money at gun point and uses it to control education, there's an obvious conflict of interest. The government has an interest in protecting itself from competition; government has an interest in educating children to believe in, trust, and grow up to believe the government is good, correct, morally right, etc.
I can't believe we ever got to the point where we tolerate this, let alone get to the point where we take it for granted. It's outrageous on its face. I can't see how a free people can ever stay free while the government runs education.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 4, 2011 12:23:44 GMT -5
It pretends to be democratic... and is democratic... in many of the ways that our founding fathers rejected when they made us a republic, and not a democracy. It is a very socialist model. Actually anarchy IS a form of socialism, combined with liberalism. Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are own by society. To use the term in this discussion is to miss use it entirely. That's why I frequently use the more accurate term, "statism". Socialism is the economic model of statists. By allowing the people to believe that they own the means of production, they'll object slightly less to the notion of a tyrannical government taking everything away from them and doing as they please while the people are actually slaves.
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Jul 4, 2011 12:28:47 GMT -5
Historically, anarchy has been a means of leading society to socialism, but they really aren't logically related. Anarchy is total lack of structure while socialism is total structure. In the US, revolutionaries used the idea that you had to destroy the current system [capitalism] in order to enable the desired system [communism]. That's why some relate anarchy to socialism. It is evidence of this kind of thinking which warns us of the true motives of some. Education has been involved in politics [in the US] since Dewey came up with the "whole child" concept, but Dewey himself was a Fabian socialist. Probably, experimentation will eventually prove to be beneficial if only because it will expose some fallacies.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2011 12:29:09 GMT -5
If compulsory education laws said you MUST attend the state school... then i would agree with you Paul... but they do not. Compulsory education laws simply say that you must offer your child some form of opportunities to learn/develop....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2011 12:30:06 GMT -5
What are your feelings on unschool Paul? Is it libertarian?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 4, 2011 12:37:18 GMT -5
...imo, we need to get the feds out of public education...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2011 12:41:00 GMT -5
In some countries which tried to achieve socialism, the result was a tyranical central government... but that is neither the goal, nor the aims of socialism. Socialism has a goal of self government, and cooperative governance and allocations of resources, and a main ideal of Marx was to liberate people from alienating work so that they might, to more efficiency and productivity, pusue their own interests and strengths. The ultimate goal of communism is actually the ABOLISHION of the state... just like anarchy... in favor of common tenancy and self governance...
I think a problem is that many governments which are named socialist/communist are judged by what they are and not what theory intended them to be? ... not that i'm saying the theory is attainable as intended...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 4, 2011 12:44:12 GMT -5
I don't understand billlis... socialism is not just an economic system... .. Yes it is. People misuse the word to cover all sorts of other things but that does not alter the fact it is an economic system.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2011 12:49:55 GMT -5
Socialism is an economic system, but it is not JUST an economic system. Its a system of social organization.
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Mad Dawg Wiccan
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Post by Mad Dawg Wiccan on Jul 4, 2011 12:51:16 GMT -5
I hate to think of how these kids are going to react when they get out into the real world and find out that you can't always just do what you want to do.
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Malarky
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Post by Malarky on Jul 4, 2011 12:54:04 GMT -5
she was highly offended by the Go the F@#$ to Sleep book...
<<snicker>> My kids are teens and to this day I am so glad that I put the time and effort into raising them in a somewhat structured environment. They actually put themselves to bed at a reasonable hour and they choose to be home for dinner. Dinner at our house has a pretty loyal following among their friends because rare is the day that a healthy meal doesn't hit the kitchen table at 6 pm.
I wonder what she thinks her kids will be like as adults? I work with 20 somethings who acknowledge that the way they were raised sometimes makes it difficult to adjust to the working world. When I was still managing, I fired several people who simply could not understand that their schedule was not flexible, that I truly expected them to show up at a particular time and execute certain responsibilities.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2011 12:58:02 GMT -5
Her 17 year old is currently pregnant to a 15 year old... and this is his second child.
I am trying not to bring it up... because my whole thesis was that she should not be judging parents who send their children to school. That once we pass the outright abuse/neglect rule, we do not have a right to pass judgement...
... which is why i'm so confused. She wants to judge what everyone else does, and rip down public schools... but doesn't think there should be any laws except basically you can't murder anyone, and you can't destroy their property... a few things like that...
I want to ask if her libertarian raised daughter will be getting WIC and welfare... but i DO have to see these people occasionally... i'm not sure i want to make the break so publically...
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Mad Dawg Wiccan
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Post by Mad Dawg Wiccan on Jul 4, 2011 13:08:37 GMT -5
She sounds like one of those who carry libertarianism to the extreme, which I agree is near anarchy.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 4, 2011 13:33:56 GMT -5
... Education has been involved in politics [in the US] since Dewey .... Although this might be true, politics have always been involved in education in the US.
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Jul 4, 2011 13:35:23 GMT -5
Re: Public school... What matters is results. To some degree, but not to the degree it has since the advent of the socialist movement [in the US]. Actually, education tends to be at the leading edge of revolutionary reform all over the world. That goes back at least to Socrates ~ although that didn't work out too well for him, or Greece.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 4, 2011 13:36:30 GMT -5
Socialism is an economic system, but it is not JUST an economic system. Its a system of social organization. It is not "a" system of social organization. There are multiple ways that society can be organized while having a socialistic economic system.
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Jul 4, 2011 13:41:34 GMT -5
Socialism as a system of social organization is, or will become, communism.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 4, 2011 13:45:45 GMT -5
Socialism as a system of social organization is, or will become, communism. That was Marx's concept. The National Socialist German Worker's Party had a different concept.
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Jul 4, 2011 14:08:25 GMT -5
Actually bills, German social organization was simply totalitarianism. It was the economic system which was a form of socialism. Public school... is the topic....we've gotten off topic....Sorry.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 4, 2011 14:16:25 GMT -5
It's not socialist, or statist because it's a voluntary association. If you agree to share, then that's your decision- and by definition if your decision is respected- it's not socialist. I think the woman is a kook. I don't know if she's a libertarian or not- but I am very libertarian on this issue, so I'm a fan of her right to be a kook.
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