kent
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Post by kent on Jun 22, 2011 14:40:40 GMT -5
We've been there for seems like forever and now the plan is to draw down troop levels. We've spent countless dollars and lost many troops trying to make life "better" for people content with living in the 5th century. Most are illiterate and apparently highly supportive of tribal law.
As one commentator said the other day, when a bomb is dropped anywhere in the country, the likelihood it will hit something of equal more value than the bomb itself is pretty darn small.
So, is getting out the right thing to do?
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Post by privateinvestor on Jun 22, 2011 15:00:45 GMT -5
Obama is in a tough place because I think he wil not be able to please anyone with his withdrawal speech tonight....The Liberals want everyone out of the Afghanistan ASAP and the Conservatives want a slow withdrawal to limit the Taliban from returing to power....so I wish him well...I know personally some families of Marines in the Afghan and they think after 10 long tough years it is time to bring all the troops home ASAP and I support them...plus we cannot afford to keep pouring $Billions down that Rat Hole called Afghanistan
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Post by privateinvestor on Jun 22, 2011 15:07:08 GMT -5
Obama likely to bring 10K troops home this year By JULIE PACE and ROBERT BURNS, Associated Press Wednesday, June 22, 2011 More... (06-22) 12:08 PDT WASHINGTON, (AP) -- President Barack Obama will map a course for drawing down the nearly 10-year war in Afghanistan Wednesday, when he is expected to set a target of bringing home about 30,000 troops by the end of 2012. The president is likely to pull out 10,000 troops by the end of this year, administration and Pentagon officials said, and aims to bring another 20,000 home by the end of next year. But with 100,000 U.S. troops currently in Afghanistan, that drawdown may not be substantial enough to satisfy some lawmakers on Capitol Hill and a war-weary public. The initial withdrawal is expected to happen in two phases, with 5,000 troops coming home this summer and an additional 5,000 by the end of the year, a senior U.S. defense official said. The pace of bringing home the other 20,000 forces was unclear heading into Obama's primetime address to the nation Wednesday. The White House opted not to give the president's speech the weight of an Oval Office address. Instead, Obama was to speak for about 10 to 15 minutes from the East Room of the White House. Obama's expected blueprint focuses on the 30,000 surge forces he ordered to Afghanistan as part of his 2009 decision to send reinforcements to reverse the Taliban's battlefield momentum. The president reached his decision a week after receiving a range of options from Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan. Obama informed his senior national security advisers, including outgoing Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, of his plans during a White House meeting Tuesday. "The president is commander in chief," spokesman Jay Carney said. "He is in charge of this process, and he makes the decision." The administration has begun briefing NATO allies on its plans. British Prime Minister David Cameron's office confirmed that officials there have been informed but declined to offer comment, or to make any immediate statement on the plans for about 9,500 British forces in Afghanistan. The withdrawals would put the U.S. on a path toward giving Afghans control of their security by 2014 and ultimately shifting the U.S. military from a combat role to a mission focused on training and supporting Afghan forces. The Obama administration has said its goal in continuing the Afghanistan war is to blunt the Taliban insurgency and dismantle and defeat al-Qaida, the terror network that used the country as a training ground for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the U.S. As of Tuesday, at least 1,522 members of the U.S. military had died in Afghanistan as a result of the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan in late 2001, according to an Associated Press count. The U.S. and its allies have set Dec. 31, 2014, as a target date for ending the combat mission in Afghanistan. A reduction this year totaling 10,000 troops would be the rough equivalent of two brigades, which are the main building blocks of an Army division. It's not clear whether Obama's decision would require the Pentagon to pull out two full brigades or, instead, withdraw a collection of smaller combat and support units with an equivalent number of troops. If Obama were to leave the bulk of the 30,000 surge contingent in Afghanistan through 2012, he would be giving the military another fighting season — in addition to the one now under way — to further damage Taliban forces before a larger withdrawal got started. It also would buy more time for the Afghan army and police to grow in numbers and capability. Under that scenario, the emphasis in U.S.-led military operations is likely to shift away from troop-intensive counterinsurgency operations toward more narrowly focused counterterrorism operations, which focus on capturing and killing insurgents. Afghan security forces and judicial institutions are expected to take up many aspects of the counterinsurgency fight by establishing the rule of law and respect for government institutions, U.S. officials in Afghanistan said Tuesday. In recent speeches, Afghan President Hamid Karzai has criticized American forces, suggesting his ally is in danger of becoming an occupying force. He has even threatened action against international forces that conduct airstrikes and has accused allies of undermining and corrupting his government. Yet there are concerns in his country about the withdrawals. Some of the areas slated to transition to Afghan control have been struck by attacks in recent weeks despite assertions by Karzai that peace talks have started between the U.S., his Afghan government and Taliban emissaries. Publicly, the Taliban say there will be no negotiations until foreign troops leave Afghanistan. The transition to full Afghan control will begin in earnest on July 20 in five provincial capital cities and two provinces. The provincial capitals identified for transition are Lashkar Gah in Helmand province, plus capitals from provinces in the west, east and north and most of Kabul, the nation's capital. The largely peaceful northern provinces of Bamyan and Panjshir will also start to transition to Afghan control. Some U.S. military commanders have favored a more gradual reduction in troops than Obama is expected to announce Wednesday night, arguing that too fast a withdrawal could undermine the fragile security gains. But other advisers have backed a more significant withdrawal that starts in July and proceeds steadily through the following months. That camp believes the slow yet steady improvements in security, combined with the killing of Osama bin Laden and U.S. success in dismantling much of the al-Qaida network in the country, give the president an opportunity to make larger reductions this year. Obama previously has said he favors a "significant" withdrawal beginning in July, his self-imposed deadline for starting to bring U.S. troops home. Aides, however, have never quantified that statement. Pressure for a substantial withdrawal has been mounting from the public and Congress. Even Gates, who has said he favored a "modest" withdrawal, said Tuesday that Obama's decision needed to incorporate domestic concerns about the war. "It goes without saying that there are a lot of reservations in the Congress about the war in Afghanistan and our level of commitment," Gates said during a news conference at the State Department. "There are concerns among the American people who are tired of a decade of war." According to an Associated Press-GfK poll last month, 80 percent of Americans say they approve of Obama's decision to begin withdrawal of combat troops in July and end U.S. combat operations in Afghanistan by 2014. Just 15 percent disapprove. On Capitol Hill, even the more moderate or conservative members of his party, such as Sen. Bob Casey of Pennsylvania and Sen. Joe Manchin of West Virginia, are pressing for significant cuts and a shift in mission. "The question the president faces — we all face — is quite simple: Will we choose to rebuild America or Afghanistan? In light of our nation's fiscal peril, we cannot do both," Manchin said Tuesday. Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said improved conditions in Afghanistan would permit Obama to withdraw at least 15,000 troops by the end of the year. Obama aides have sidestepped questions about what role the cost of the war in Afghanistan played in Obama's decision, saying only that the president was focused on meeting the goal of transferring security by 2014. Following the announcement on the drawdown, Obama will visit troops Thursday at Fort Drum, the upstate New York Army post that is home to the 10th Mountain Division, one of the most frequently deployed divisions to Afghanistan. ___ Associated Press writers Lolita C. Baldor, Matthew Lee and Donna Cassata in Washington and Solomon Moore in Kabul, Afghanistan, contributed to this report. ___ Robert Burns can be reached at twitter.com/roburtburnsAP. Julie Pace can be reached at twitter.com/jpaceDC. sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/06/19/national/w060051D39.DTL © 2011 Hearst Communications Inc. |
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 22, 2011 15:08:10 GMT -5
This is one of those issues that doesn't divide nicely into "liberals" / "conservatives".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2011 15:27:32 GMT -5
I'm curious-- do any of you military people, including Molly, have an opinion on this? I want the wars to end, but I'm not military, and don't know what it means to end them. I DO know I don't want NEW wars, and I don't want the lives lost already to be for nothing IF there is a chance of winning.. which seems slim..
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jun 22, 2011 15:42:16 GMT -5
I am not sure about liberals, but true conservatives would have never went in in the first place. You can't kill an ideal (terrorism) with money, weapons and soldiers lives. The only way to kill an ideal is to make it look ludicrous, insignificant or make the people who support the ideal fear for their lives(whichever one will work mind you). For instance the Taliban if their ideals and thoughts are so imbedded to the point of lunacy, then you kill and slaughter them in the most inhumane ways without mercy. Also you have to convince the people of reason and have them support you, if they don't then they are supporting evil by letting it grow and fester. The only way to defeat evil is to be as merciless as it is with out losing yourself to it. I say if we keep fighting this war that we go full board and just start wiping the heck out of them or just come back and defend our homes from them.
I personally don't think we should have troop deployments there in the first place, but 30k by the end of his term is better than 0 or additional. The original surge Obama put in was 30k I think and he did agree to go into(support role) Libya, so I think they should revoke his Nobel Peace award.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2011 15:45:56 GMT -5
I just have to ask: Is this news really "Breaking News" PrimetimeTV cut in worthy? Seriously, it's not like it's something that hasn't been discussed for days or weeks and had plenty of articles written about it in the last few days. The last time I saw anything worth cutting into a Breaking News segment was for 9/11.
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Post by marshabar1 on Jun 22, 2011 16:02:13 GMT -5
I met a 19 year old who was just deployed to Afghanistan. He went into the Army to train for a tank brigade but he explained that tanks aren't used in Afghanistan because tanks are perceived as unfriendly and their mission is "TO WIN HEARTS AND MINDS."
THAT IS THE MISSION: "TO WIN HEARTS AND MINDS."
Not to defeat and destroy an enemy.
TO WIN HEARTS AND MINDS.
When the leadership of Afghanistan is corrupt and constantly sniping at the U.S. efforts how do you think we are doing at this winning of hearts and minds?
When there has been a resurgence in the trade of little boy whores are we winning hearts and minds?
This president doesn't like to use the word victory remember?
I say get our people out of there. If they make trouble bombs away. No more troops.
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Post by marshabar1 on Jun 22, 2011 16:03:53 GMT -5
I just have to ask: Is this news really "Breaking News" PrimetimeTV cut in worthy? Seriously, it's not like it's something that hasn't been discussed for days or weeks and had plenty of articles written about it in the last few days. The last time I saw anything worth cutting into a Breaking News segment was for 9/11. The Showboat in Chief will take any excuse to bore the nation with his lofty pronouncements.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2011 16:08:52 GMT -5
I have to agree, I think. I'm thinking they will revert to back where they were in no time at all. I think we just need to defend OUR country, but in the current political climate that is not happening. They won't even secure the borders!!! And all you have to do is say the word Muslim and Democrats go insane. This country needs to tighten up-- inside the country, not in foreign places. But tightening up infringes on our rights so people go nuts there.. don't know what the answer is at this point.
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kent
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Post by kent on Jun 22, 2011 16:29:52 GMT -5
I have to agree, I think. I'm thinking they will revert to back where they were in no time at all. I think we just need to defend OUR country, but in the current political climate that is not happening. They won't even secure the borders!!! And all you have to do is say the word Muslim and Democrats go insane. This country needs to tighten up-- inside the country, not in foreign places. But tightening up infringes on our rights so people go nuts there.. don't know what the answer is at this point. Can't add much to that Krickitt
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kent
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Post by kent on Jun 22, 2011 16:30:22 GMT -5
This is one of those issues that doesn't divide nicely into "liberals" / "conservatives".
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Post by marshabar1 on Jun 22, 2011 16:49:33 GMT -5
I have to agree, I think. I'm thinking they will revert to back where they were in no time at all. I think we just need to defend OUR country, but in the current political climate that is not happening. They won't even secure the borders!!! And all you have to do is say the word Muslim and Democrats go insane. This country needs to tighten up-- inside the country, not in foreign places. But tightening up infringes on our rights so people go nuts there.. don't know what the answer is at this point. Can't remember who backed McCain up today on his statement that the fires were caused by people crossing the border illegally. What's to stop a terrorist from doing this very expensive, very dangerous damage to our nation? These fires have a widespread destructive effect and will even result in more people losing their homes due to increased insurance rates.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jun 22, 2011 18:36:44 GMT -5
The CA Dems wrote a letter to Obama caling for @30,000 to @50,000 withdrawal from the Afghan by the end of 2012 and signed by Mike Honda and Barbara Lee both liberal dems from the Bay Area..
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Jun 22, 2011 20:33:34 GMT -5
Thanks to Raygun for abandoning Afghanistan in the late 80's and Boooosh ditto in 2003 for the stupidest war EVER in Iraq. It will take 2 terms to clean up all this Pubcrappe... ;D Neocon adventurist/deregulationists never again....
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Jun 22, 2011 20:35:39 GMT -5
Nobody should EVER listen to anybody from California
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Post by privateinvestor on Jun 22, 2011 20:47:53 GMT -5
Nobody should EVER listen to anybody from California Have you now dumped Nancy Pelosi (Dem San Francisco, CA)
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❤ mollymouser ❤
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Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on Jun 22, 2011 21:20:25 GMT -5
I'm curious-- do any of you military people, including Molly, have an opinion on this? I want the wars to end, but I'm not military, and don't know what it means to end them. I DO know I don't want NEW wars, and I don't want the lives lost already to be for nothing IF there is a chance of winning.. which seems slim.. What do I think? The Department of Defense announced today that Lance Cpl. Jared C. Verbeek, 22, died from wounds received while conducting combat operations in Helmand province, Afghanistan. He was assigned to 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, Camp Pendleton, Calif. This was in our local news tonight. He leaves behind a wife, and a very young son. He's not the first local young man to die in Afghanistan, but I pray that he will be the last.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2011 22:00:31 GMT -5
Okay.. I don't hear anybody here, or on TV, or anywhere that wants these wars to go on. Someone that knows tell me why Obama is not pulling out until 2014? That is a long way off. I don't hear anybody say we can "win" this, so why stay? Does anyone have an answer? I don't understand at all. It would be a huge boost for Obama to end the wars, so what is it? Is he too afraid the fallout after we leave will cost him the next election? Why are we there??? Terrorists are everywhere now, heck, they are HERE, so why Afghanistan?
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Jun 22, 2011 22:19:48 GMT -5
Molly, I wish i could answer your question, but of course I can't. Your newspaper ran the notice of one of your local young men losing his life. My own has run similar sad news. And the Memorial day edition of the Marine Corps Times ran the names and faces of 556 young Americans who had lost their lives during the lat 12 months, and mentioned 12 more dead and 300 wounded at press time since Osama bin Laden was taken down. It is above my ability to put it into words, but I just received an email that shows it can be done, and done very well. These are from a retired Marine: As a man of ethics, experience and political integrity, Allen West is so right for America, right now(!), that it's scary.
As for Obama's teleprompter speech -- did you watch his eyes clicking left and right as he read? -- this is what I posted on my Facebook Wall:
Listening to President Obama's speech tonight about pulling U.S. troops out of Afghanistan, it is obvious this is another instance where he intends to ignore the hard-won expert, experienced advice of U.S. Generals, and do it his way. This will have consequences, as we have seen before. But this President is not a student of history.
Here are some instances of his speech that jumped out at me:
He claims HE ordered 30,000 additional troops as a “surge,” but I clearly remember he was one of those AGAINST the surge ordered by Pres. George W. Bush. Yet he takes credit for the "surge."
He will have brought 40,000 troops home by next year, men and women trained at great expense, and because there will be no longer a need for that many troops under arms, they will be released onto an economy that has no jobs for them. This in a nation that already has 14 million jobless. And the reservists will not be going back to their old jobs, because we've already seen the news stories of that law being ignored, and the Obama administration will not fight for them.
Our mission will change, Obama said, from combat to support, obviously not understanding that with his massive drawdown of troops, those left behind will have to fight a rear guard action to get out of Afghanistan alive. We don't learn from history.
Despite what he said, killing Osama bin Ladin has not stopped al Qaeda. They are still armed, dangerous, and attacking us.
Contrary to what he said, we do not have widespread support among our allies in NATO, as many of our former allies are crying poormouth and want to disengage.
He complemented the Afghan Police Force, which is known as a national disgrace. He is obviously out of touch. Reality has no meaning for this man.
He stated we have ended our combat mission in Iraq. What in the world makes him think that? Some wounded veterans at Walter Reed Army Hospital and Bethesda Naval Hospital may want to talk to him about that. They may be arriving by aircraft this afternoon or tomorrow morning.
I have never ... never ... never been more disgusted with not just our President, but with our elected officials who see America being beaten to her knees economically, socially, and morally, and will not take the action available to them to save this nation. Disgusted. Disgusted. Disgusted!!!
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 22, 2011 22:42:26 GMT -5
At least get the basic facts straight.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Jun 22, 2011 23:06:52 GMT -5
If you have anything to say to Allen West, here is one place to do it, by use of his personal email address: gowest@allenwestforcongress.com
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2011 23:07:55 GMT -5
So, Henry, is the situation as you read it that pulling these 30,000 out is going to really endanger the ones left behind? That makes sense since they really needed those troops, and more. I'm going to listen to the West interview again, re-run, right now, and see if I can understand this better. My son-in-law just re-enlisted in the Reserves. I'm surprised they let him. I wonder what the plan is for all these troops now if 30,000 come home?
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Post by marshabar1 on Jun 22, 2011 23:23:23 GMT -5
So Obama is continuing to play politics with people's lives. First to appease the left he sent fewer troops than the generals requested. Now he is taking out troops who are doing a good job at the wrong time combat wise and leaving behind expensive government contractors who are doing a bad job. This according to Former UN Ambassador John Bolten. He said the amount of money we are sending in to Afghanistan is fueling corruption. That a nation like Afghanistan doesn't have the absorptive capacity to handle (honestly) the money we are pouring in there. The are government contractors getting rich on our tax dollars and not accomplishing diddly. tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/so_how_many_private_contractors_are_there_in_afgha.php
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 22, 2011 23:38:37 GMT -5
Obama is in a tough place because I think he wil not be able to please anyone with his withdrawal speech tonight.... Looks like you are being proven correct.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Jun 22, 2011 23:40:01 GMT -5
krickitt, we have seen it happen so many times that our allies are dwindling world wide, and some of the ones we still have are becoming lukewarm.. . . .You heard West say it: The tribal leaders are going to go where the strength is. If the local leaders can't be depended on the entire country is lost, and as our forces pull back they will be lost.
On a bigger scale, we will have lost another part of our station in the free world. Our friendships will be less genuine, which means our trading partners will demand more. Communications alone will slow down. Every aspect of our foreign policy will be affected.
So with that as background, yes, the troops that remain will be at greater risk. How could it be any other way?
Some will say that if the Afghanis want our help they need to do more for themselves. I don't think asking a man who can't read or write, who has a wife who can't even buy her own clothing, who has kids that have no idea what the words "coloring book" mean, what they think of not having hot and cold running water is very meaningful. The man knows one thing: If he wants to keep what he has, he will conform to whatever he perceives as his long range best interests.
We do need, and we need it badly, a new president.
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Jun 22, 2011 23:48:07 GMT -5
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Jun 22, 2011 23:53:29 GMT -5
#37- Bush made us the world's a-hole and laughingstock, and we haven't been more popular in 10 years, but thanks for the BS Pub propaganda big lie recitation....
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Jun 22, 2011 23:59:33 GMT -5
#25John Bolton is the biggest a-hole and war mongering arrogant joke we've ever put on the world stage ;D- leave it to Booooosh to but in an ambassador to the UN who wants to leave it....ay caramba- at least he kept Cheney in his bunker...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 23, 2011 0:13:12 GMT -5
Some people were concerned on another thread about Obama's "abuse" of recess appointments: On August 1, 2005, Bush officially made a recess appointment of Bolton, installing him as Permanent US Representative to the UN. A recess appointment lasts until the next session of Congress ends or until the individual is renominated and confirmed by the Senate. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_R._Bolton#Recess_appointment
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