Would healthcare be better if it was cash only?

[NoMoreLunacy]

Jun 10, 2011 13:17:38 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Unfettered free markets create so much prosperity, that we really don't have to "choose". It's not this, or that. It's both, and.

This is not true at all, and thankfully so. Unfettered free market creates massive inequality. I like it just that way. It is great to be rich in an unfettered free market. However, we do need to regulate the capital flow to the middle and low income speculators. Otherwise there are housing and equity bubbles.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

www.freemarketcure.com

[hannah27]

Yes, I think we should back to paying cash (which includes credit cards and checks) as we did before the insurance companies got a stronghold on us all - and employers began using it as a bargaining tool. Take health insurance out of the employment picture altogether as they've done in most Western European countries.

When people begin to pay with their own hard-earned money for medical treatment, they will allocate the resources more wisely. Prices will drop.

There was a time when being a doctor did not automatically conjure up images of wealth. It was simply a profession.

[hannah27]

Jun 9, 2011 20:44:59 GMT -5 handyman2 said:

Actually you can buy insurance for legal services they are called retainer services.. The established doctors will be there cash only which will eleminate many patients.
With a medical degree costing upwards of half a million dollars today you won't see many new ones you can bet.

Why does it cost so much to get a medical degree nowadays? Do you think that's an accident, when you can get a doctorate at a state university for under $100k?

[reasonfreedom]

Jun 9, 2011 16:25:44 GMT -5 ugonow said:

Very true,Incorrect. Unfortunatly all this medical care nonsense... is a needed evil... and no one wants to pay for it.

maybe for unhealthy people, speak of necessity for yourself not others.

[reasonfreedom]

This message has been deleted.

[ugonow]

Jun 9, 2011, 4:25pm, ugonow wrote:Very true,Incorrect. Unfortunatly all this medical care nonsense... is a needed evil... and no one wants to pay for it.



maybe for unhealthy people, speak of necessity for yourself not others.

No one is healthy forever.Everyone uses the healthcare industry.You can't even enter life or leave it without their services.

[NoMoreLunacy]

Jun 12, 2011 10:53:10 GMT -5 Lady Gaga Gaga Snerd said:

No. You are missing my point. Nobody is saying don't give treatment. But, you also know there are lots of people who are not proactive in caring for themselves and then just expect some miracle pill to do the work they don't want to do. As for who will say who needs what, well someone has to make that decision. Eveyone simply cannot have everything they want whenever they want it without some cost somewhere. We have to balance the costs somewhere. There IS healthcare rationing. There always will be. Either through payments, access or whatever.

I am. If you can't pay for it in cash, no service for you.

[NoMoreLunacy]

Jun 12, 2011 10:45:51 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

I am able to see and work today because of my access to healthcare. If I had not been able to afford drugs to bleed pressure from my eyes, I would be a completely blind woman dependent on the charity of others. For close to two years, I had to support myself on sporadic temp work while seeing an eye surgeon every six weeks.

Tests included MRI's, dye angiograms, field of vision tests, spinal taps, you name it. It was two years of hell, but I am able to work today and support myself. The "less healthcare" of which some speak would have left me destroyed. Is that what you would want for you and yours? How much would be "saved" by putting me and others like me on permanent charity?

Be careful what you wish.

As a Republican my heart goes out to you and your situation. That's my compassionate side. However, I am still a conservative. So, I cannot be OK with someone else paying your medical bills, nor supporting you when you do on charity. That's the cornerstone of Republicanism - compassionate conservatism. Let me just say again that my heart goes out to you.

[NoMoreLunacy]

Jun 12, 2011 11:12:46 GMT -5 Lady Gaga Gaga Snerd said:

Jun 12, 2011 11:04:00 GMT -5 NoMoreLunacy said:

I am. If you can't pay for it in cash, no service for you.

That may be your opinion. But, i think that is totally ridiculous. And, there is some point where we care for others as human beings.

I am all for caring but not for paying.

[handyman2]

The idea that doctors are getting rich is baloney. The cost of medical school, the cost of setting up and maintaining an office, now the high cost of compliance being part of the health care package the margins for getting rich are not there.
By the way those that think government provided health care is so great in places like the UK. Just a quick point, a few years ago Britain allowed a US hospital group to build a for profit hospital there. Guess what? Those that could pay for individual service chose to do so because the service and results were much higher quality. Those that cannot pay are stuck with the national second rate system.
One thing that puzzles me is do those that bash insurance companies really know anything about the business or are just spouting off to have something to write.
If they think the government plan is going to give them better and cheaper service they need to think again.
They also might want to research countries where they have universal health care and see just how much of their pay check the government takes to provide those socialized services even if they do not need care.

[reasonfreedom]

Jun 12, 2011 11:00:46 GMT -5 ugonow said:

Jun 9, 2011, 4:25pm, ugonow wrote:Very true,Incorrect. Unfortunatly all this medical care nonsense... is a needed evil... and no one wants to pay for it.



maybe for unhealthy people, speak of necessity for yourself not others.

No one is healthy forever.Everyone uses the healthcare industry.You can't even enter life or leave it without their services.

not true, you don't have to be born in a hospital and you don't have to die in one. Keep on thinking though you might be able to open your mind a little further and realize before commenting.

[reasonfreedom]

Jun 12, 2011 11:22:19 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

Preventative care is no panacea. I had an ovarian torsion from a dermoid cyst. This problem would have killed me within 72 hours if left untreated. The only signs of a problem was persistent pain that was repeatedly mis-diagnosed as an infection and the antibiotics I was given temporarily masked what was going on.

I had an ovarian cyst the size of a small grapefruit cause my fallopian tube to twist over and stop all blood flow causing a rapid-onset infection. I had been to GYNs who had palpated me and noticed nothing mere days before.

When I asked what caused this, I was told it was congenital. Nothing I did ever caused it, I was born with it, and possibly might have been spared the experience if I had been imaged instead of palpitated on the early trip to the hospital over it. It was a judgement call to save the insurance company money, but then, there are economic realities and most of the time it is a urinary tract infection.

My point is that you can do everything right and still be dropped. I was 40 when this happened to me and I received last rites of the Catholic Church. I am a hale and hearty 51 today. This is one of several bad brushes with disability that I have had and survived and I keep going. That is the difference between me and the underserved who are merely invited to drop dead.

University of Michigan did a study on cancers that I read. It basically stated we are all born with cancer cells(congenital), but we actually contract the issue of cancer because something in your daily surroundings or from habits that actually trigger it. It is like I may be more prone to get heart cancer if it runs in my family, but I can prevent it by keeping my body healthy and keeping it in check. I am not saying everything is 100% preventable, but what would happen to health insurance or health care cost if it 95% and everybody decided to take of themselves? I have a hard time believing what a lot of doctors say as the cause or cure, because I have seen them proved wrong a lot of times. Mainly from the people that come to see my herbalist that end up being cured after having seen the doctor for months and on multiple subscriptions. My brother was told he needed his tonsils removed by a few doctors, but he still refused to do it. Needless to say that he does have any problems with his tonsils anymore. I have always wondered if some of these issues from birth could be prevented from parents that are healthy. Who knows for sure, since the human body has to be one of the most complex systems that we are still studying.

[reasonfreedom]

I agree if you take herbal remedies that you should consult a professional herbalist(or do mass research), same as consulting a doctor with prescription drugs. My herbalist said the he found most of the people that come to him are cured by cleansing there system with natural herbs more times than needing specific ones for treatment. A lot of times it is the buildup of years of toxins and waste in our system that contribute to most of our problems.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

When you think about the areas of your life that are the least pleasant- or just the areas of the economy where there is the most trouble, and the least pleasant, they are ALL government (or inlaws). Amtrak? Airports? Wall Street? Banking? Post Office?

When you think about the areas of your life that are the MOST pleasant- you are likely thinking of a part of life that is the LEAST regulated by government.

To the extent government becomes more involved, things become less pleasant, less efficient, and usually-- more expensive.

To ask the question whether or not healthcare would be better if it were cash-only (with true catastrophic insurance available) is like asking if grocery stores would be better if the government ran them? Or whether or not your house would be better if government built it?

If every industry were regulated like healthcare, if your car insurance was like your health insurance-- it'd be worse. Guaranteed.

Hell, just wait-- they're introducing pet health insurance. See if that gets better as it moves away from cash only.

[hello fromWarsaw]

Time to get ridiculous costs under control, and this health reform could not be more of a compromise, a more American type plan. It's amazing how obstructionist and bought off elitist pubs are, AND how much they can mislead the public.
There IS no other way. It's interesting that Obama started out not thinking an individual mandate was necessary- it was added by congress. In reality people would want the reformed health plans anyway, and it would take away the major pub fear tactic.

[reasonfreedom]

Jun 12, 2011 14:00:44 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

By the way, my ovarian cyst was not cancerous and it was something I was born with and had for many decades. All the herbs in the world would not have made a difference. That die was cast long ago. One would be surprised how many of us are carrying around "slow bullets" that will eventually get them.

www.bettermedicine.com/article/dermoid-cyst-1

Did you try all the herbs in the world? Could it have been prevented by not eating certain foods? Could it have been prevented by not having certain things around in your day to day surroundings? Just want to see the research that disproves it, that's all.

[reasonfreedom]

Jun 12, 2011 14:35:43 GMT -5 reasonfreedom said:

Jun 12, 2011 14:00:44 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

By the way, my ovarian cyst was not cancerous and it was something I was born with and had for many decades. All the herbs in the world would not have made a difference. That die was cast long ago. One would be surprised how many of us are carrying around "slow bullets" that will eventually get them.

www.bettermedicine.com/article/dermoid-cyst-1

Did you try all the herbs in the world? Could it have been prevented by not eating certain foods? Could it have been prevented by not having certain things around in your day to day surroundings? Just want to see the research that disproves it, that's all.

Here is a link for you. They can be preventable, well according to this link atleast.

ezinearticles.com/?Dermoid-Cysts---Natural-Treatment-Methods-Work-Well-For-This-Type-of-Ovarian-Cyst&id=3777040

[fairlycrazy23]

Jun 12, 2011 9:35:33 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

Hannah, you don't have a clue how expensive serious illness is. What do you say to the twenty-something who needs treatment for a brain tumor? How about the mother with several children and one is epileptic or diabetic.

Serious illness costs big bucks. I am a clerk who has experienced several bouts of illness that would have left me dead or blinded. None of the illnesses were "lifestyle" illnesses brought about by smoking, drinking, drugs or any form of abuse. Exposure to industrial pollutants, genetics and birth defects may have played a part.

When your ovary twists and you need immediate surgery or when you are diagnosed with pressure on the optic nerve that will blind you, you do not have time to negotiate or look for a cheaper provider or less costly method. Every hour or day of hesitation causes irreparable damage as you work against a clock.

Major surgery can easily cost six figures or more. Will you pay that from your 30K job and your 20 K savings? Will you expend your life savings at one go? Illness is the leading cause of bankruptcy in this country.

Read my posts. See how often I bash insurance and the financial industry, but I am wholly and personally convinced that excellent health coverage is your best investment, even if you are footing the bill yourself. There is no investment plan yet made that will raise the dead.

Well, I think the best idea would be to pay out of pocket (or with health care savings plans) for most things, but have insurance with a high deductible for serious costly events.

[reasonfreedom]

Jun 12, 2011 15:04:13 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

Did you try all the herbs in the world? Could it have been prevented by not eating certain foods? Could it have been prevented by not having certain things around in your day to day surroundings? Just want to see the research that disproves it, that's all.



No herb could have prevented my problem because it was caused by a defect during fetal development. That is what the definition of the word "congenital" means, "present at birth." If you read the link that describes what a Dermoid Cyst is you can see for yourself.

There is an old saying that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Herbs, weight-control, etc. are all well and good, they have their place, but many, many things will not respond to one's pet ideas. Should your leg be amputated, you will not grow another by taking the correct herb, nor will you grow extra organs if you are born without the correct ones or with defective ones.

I read your link did you read the one I placed, it seems that these are preventable. Obviously if it is a birth defect then there is something wrong with the host. People have children without this congenital defect, it seems to me that just because you had to have surgery that was the only way it can be. If I was a doctor I would tell you the same way, because that AMA tells me I have to or they lose their license.

[achelois]

Morticians would be in demand, though, if we did away with all insurance.

I was admitted recently for hypertensive crisis. Was in the hospital 15hrs. Over $8,000. Insurance covered $6,000 of it.

I was happy it covered THAT much.

[NoMoreLunacy]

I still don't want to pay for that.

[NoMoreLunacy]

Jun 12, 2011 17:40:09 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

"Well, I think the best idea would be to pay out of pocket (or with health care savings plans) for most things, but have insurance with a high deductible for serious costly events."

That is one school of thought, but of course this is still paying with insurance, not cash. Such plans are not cheap either. They will cost an individual several thousand dollars a year even with a very high deductible and the tax advantages are about nil for people in the lower brackets.

So what's your proposal? Have the rich pay for all of it, eh?

[hannah27]

Jun 12, 2011 9:35:33 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

Hannah, you don't have a clue how expensive serious illness is.

Yes, I do know how expensive serious illness is nowadays. Even with top of the line insurance, a few years ago my out-of-pocket expenses were over $20k.

The point is that the ridiculous cost of health care in this country is fabricated *because* of health insurance. (And non-payers, who are often unable to pay because the costs are so far out of balance with reality.) Get RID of health insurance companies and the costs of doing business for doctors and hospitals will drop drastically. Prices for health care in this country have escalated beyond all reason in the past few decades.

Pity the poor person without health insurance nowadays. Instead of paying the same rate as the insurance companies, he pays triple - or more - because that is how hospitals and doctors have coped with insurance companies deciding what constitutes "fair and reasonable."

Let the market decide what is fair and reasonable. If people can't - or won't pay - these ridiculous prices, the market will adjust. There is no free market in health care in America. Prices are being held at an artificially high level by insurance companies.

[ugonow]

Quote:
Jun 9, 2011, 4:25pm, ugonow wrote:"Very true,Incorrect. Unfortunatly all this medical care nonsense... is a needed evil... and no one wants to pay for it. "

maybe for unhealthy people, speak of necessity for yourself not others.

No one is healthy forever.Everyone uses the healthcare industry.You can't even enter life or leave it without their services.

not true, you don't have to be born in a hospital and you don't have to die in one. Keep on thinking though you might be able to open your mind a little further and realize before commenting.

Even in home births there is a midwife... And a medical examiner must sign your death certificiate or you are not legally dead.

[Angel!]

Jun 13, 2011 6:09:31 GMT -5 hannah27 said:

Jun 12, 2011 9:35:33 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

Hannah, you don't have a clue how expensive serious illness is.

Yes, I do know how expensive serious illness is nowadays. Even with top of the line insurance, a few years ago my out-of-pocket expenses were over $20k.

LOL. If your out-of-pocket was 20K, then that is not even close to top of the line insurance.

[reasonfreedom]

Jun 13, 2011 13:54:17 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Jun 13, 2011 6:09:31 GMT -5 hannah27 said:

Yes, I do know how expensive serious illness is nowadays. Even with top of the line insurance, a few years ago my out-of-pocket expenses were over $20k.

LOL. If your out-of-pocket was 20K, then that is not even close to top of the line insurance.

Are you saying there are no surgeries that cost over 20k with top of the line insurance? I am assuming that you know that for a fact.

[floridayankee]

Jun 13, 2011 15:06:28 GMT -5 reasonfreedom said:

Jun 13, 2011 13:54:17 GMT -5 Angel! said:

LOL. If your out-of-pocket was 20K, then that is not even close to top of the line insurance.

Are you saying there are no surgeries that cost over 20k with top of the line insurance? I am assuming that you know that for a fact.

Personally, If my insurance policy had an annual max Out-of-Pocket expenses at more than $10k, I probably wouldn't consider it top of the line either. I say probably, because it would depend on the other coverages.

[Angel!]

Jun 13, 2011 15:06:28 GMT -5 reasonfreedom said:

Jun 13, 2011 13:54:17 GMT -5 Angel! said:

LOL. If your out-of-pocket was 20K, then that is not even close to top of the line insurance.

Are you saying there are no surgeries that cost over 20k with top of the line insurance? I am assuming that you know that for a fact.

Yes that is exactly what I am saying - top of the line would mean something that is great. A top of the line insurance would not have an out-of-pocket of 20K. I have mid-level insurance at best & my max out-of-pocket is 4K for the entire family.

I am sure there are insurances with 20K out-of-pocket maxes, but I certainly wouldn't consider those top of the line.

[hello fromWarsaw]

People in ALL other modern countries are absolutely aghast at such talk- how can Americans put up with such an obscenity of a a Pub system? Thank god SOMETHING is FINALLY being done ...Obamahhhhh....
If you ddon't agree you are seriously misled.