Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Apr 20, 2011 17:33:39 GMT -5
"Not only people who get paid little don't pay, they receive, receive, receive. Why should they?" Why shouldn't they? The system is rigged to have winners and losers not by design but in nature. Those who benefit the most keep gaining more and more unfair advantage. Spare me the they work hard crap, because so do the poor in majority (yes some do not but those are unintended consequences that happens with everything). We pride ourselves as one of the most powerful and prosperous nations why would we not take care of our poor? They do contribute to society maybe not the way YOU think they should but they still do. We are not hyenas that devour the weak we are Americans that care for our fellow citizens and neighbors. It is obvious that most people see these values as very important to this country others not so much luckily it is not the majority. Why shouldn't they receive, receive, receive on top of paying nothing? For several reasons... the first being that it sends the wrong message if you get everything for free (Poor choices should not be positively reinforced). The second being that people value things less when they get them for free (vs. having to pay for them). Work with anyone on govt assistance and you will find this out quickly (Other examples are the people who walked away from their homes even though they could afford them because they had no "skin in the game"). The third reason is that is not the attitude that made America great. What made us great was asking what we could do for ourselves and our communities, not sitting around whining about what we are entitled to (based on someone else's work). I understand that not all people who are poor are there because of bad choices. Unfortunately, a good number of them are. By rewarding this kind of behavior and these poor choices, you get more of the very behavior you don't want. If you chose to drop out of high school because you were too lazy to go, the taxpayers DON'T owe you a comfortable life. You want more in this world, pull up your bootstraps and start doing things right. Don't have kids that you can't support at age 16 (No, they aren't a "blessing".... not when you expect the taxpayer to pay to feed and clothe them). I came from an area which is economically depressed and have seen the differences that can be made by people making the right choices. I can still see the people that were worthless growing up complaining about the "govt owes them"... These are people that are drains on society and just want more and more. The sucking never ends. As far as the rich moving, I think some of the arguments here are to tax them heavily because "where else are they going to go?". That sounds a little like extortion to me. Taking someone's money because you perceive that you have them trapped in a corner and they can't go anywhere else is despicable. It is no better than the schoolyard bully who steals lunch money from the smaller kids. If we want to raise taxes, make it part of a sensible budget reform where spending is cut and everyone gets to pay for being a citizen of this great country. Don't just raise taxes "because you can".
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 20, 2011 17:41:00 GMT -5
The fact that most people think the way you do is not an indication that they have certain values, but simply shows that there are plenty of people who don't understand that giving people things for nothing will not result in anything good or benefit a society.
And you are really talking to the wrong person about a "rigged" system.
Lena
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Apr 20, 2011 17:45:28 GMT -5
Do you not understand there will ALWAYS be those on the bottom it is the nature of capitalism. We cannot have a society of winners with pure capitalism we would have to incorporate some socialism, which I know you would HATE. Maybe you do not see the people who work HARD and still need help like your secretary, construction worker, grocery clerk none of those jobs pay a true living wage try living on that and saving for retirement while raising a family. I am not talking about people who do nothing all day I am talking about the working poor and I guarantee if I mentioned raising the minimum wage or demanding a living wage (unions) you will scream at the top of your lungs about them being losers. So what is it you want people to do certainly not fight against corporations for there own interests. See only those at the top have the right to fight for themselves in your world view. The rich will move anyway they have been moving raising taxes or not, but no not for greed but out of respect for the country and people who worked so hard for them...yeah right.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 20, 2011 17:58:28 GMT -5
"Maybe you do not see the people who work HARD and still need help like your secretary, construction worker, grocery clerk none of those jobs pay a true living wage try living on that and saving for retirement while raising a family."
Here's a novel idea, if you can't afford to raise a family, stop reproducing like rabbits. Those jobs all pay plenty for a person to live off of, they just don't pay enough to live off of if you make stupid decisions that you can't afford. You don't have some inalienable right to pop out kids you can't afford to take care of.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Apr 20, 2011 18:02:19 GMT -5
And you want FREEDOM constitionality and no government interference? obviously not....why don't you move to china.
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Post by illinicheme on Apr 20, 2011 18:03:32 GMT -5
I understand the reasoning behind some of the trickle-down theories and whatnot, but I don't have much confidence in them. I do have confidence that unmitigated greed will continue to drive most everything in the world. Well, you may be a bit too cynical. The trickle-down theories actually worked well (particularly Art Laffer's theory) - it was the Left Media that had invented the pejorative and gave it the bad press. As for the unmitigated greed - the most successful of the SP500 companies (80% of US corporate capital) operate on an average margin of only 8% to 10%, and they compete diligently for our business to maintain that margin. The few that are in the 'unmitigated' category (Enron, etc) tend to crash & burn due to their faulty management. As others said, high taxes and heavy regs are part of what is driving production offshore. Another factor is unions, hard to compete when paying $40/hr for $18/hr worth of work. That aside, we can compete - we have the skills to invent/build automated equipment where a single operator can do the work of 10 laborers. And literally make it up in volume - ie, make 10X as many parts and sell them (competitively) in foreign markets. With a little help on taxes, regs, and unions, we would like to do exactly that. Maybe I am too cynical, but I see a lot of short-term kowtowing to the whims of Wall Street and not a lot of long range sustainable planning. I see a lot of scrambling to pick up shiny pennies while ignoring the dollars. I've been burned by a CEO telling me to my face "we have plenty of operating cash to survive for at least three years" and then laying off 50% of the company a mere two weeks later. (And then bolting a month after that for another company to cut some more jobs.) I also see a lot of attacking of things like planned parenthood, with arguments like "cutting every little bit of spending helps" - but if you suggest the same thing with regards to CEO compensation? Heck no. They deserve it and it's such a small fraction of the overall budget anyway. Mostly I'm just tired of hearing how tough it is to be a well-off American. And I'm on track to be one.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Apr 20, 2011 18:09:01 GMT -5
"Here's a novel idea, if you can't afford to raise a family, stop reproducing like rabbits. Those jobs all pay plenty for a person to live off of, they just don't pay enough to live off of if you make stupid decisions that you can't afford. You don't have some inalienable right to pop out kids you can't afford to take care of. This.... even in the animal kingdom, creatures take care of their offspring. Why do I want to work harder to pay for your kids? Why is someone entitled to another person's money because they managed to pop out kids? It's not like it takes alot of talent or effort to reproduce... As far as making a living wage... how much do you want to pay for your foods? How about your home? Or your energy? You do realize that raising the wages through artificial means (i.e. minimum wage) just causes prices to rise, right? Businesses aren't some endless pool of $$ that employ people for fun. They employ the people they need to create the product they need to sell at a price that the market will buy at. If you raise all the salaries, guess what happens? The prices go up. Now, the worker is in the same predicament. Sure, you make $10 an hour but a loaf of bread costs $7 and a gallon of milk costs $8. Does that help you if you are the worker? As for people saving who are blue collar workers, that is most of my family and friends. They have managed to save despite being the secretary, the construction worker, the security guard, the LVN. They did this by managing expectations and not buying everything in sight. They lived within their means and saved appropriately. Did this mean that their kids didn't get a new video game every year? Sure... but they had what they needed and they were able to save. I speak from personal experience on this... my parents are blue collar workers and have managed to own their home, save some $$, and live a fairly good life in a HCOLA. They did it by living frugally and not whining about how unfair life is.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Apr 20, 2011 18:18:36 GMT -5
And I'm on track to be one. I've been burned by a CEO telling me to my face "we have plenty of operating cash to survive for at least three years" and then laying off 50% of the company a mere two weeks later. That is not an unusual situation in today's market. Many companies are now flush with cash. But there is no market for their products. So, if you can't find buyers for your product, you have to slow down production - you can't just stack the goods in the parking lot. The point - the layoff had nothing to do with the 3-yr supply of money in the company treasury, it had to do with the poor economy. Believe me, he would much rather have a high demand for his product so that he could invest that money to add more workers, more equipment, etc.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Apr 20, 2011 18:21:10 GMT -5
"As far as making a living wage... how much do you want to pay for your foods? How about your home? Or your energy? You do realize that raising the wages through artificial means (i.e. minimum wage) just causes prices to rise, right? Businesses aren't some endless pool of $$ that employ people for fun. They employ the people they need to create the product they need to sell at a price that the market will buy at. If you raise all the salaries, guess what happens? The prices go up. Now, the worker is in the same predicament. Sure, you make $10 an hour but a loaf of bread costs $7 and a gallon of milk costs $8. Does that help you if you are the worker?"
No but apparently cutting the worker off at the knees to appease his employers does. Then after you do that lets cut all safety nets he may have when hard times come. Yes I so want to live in your world.
Tired of hearing about what your parents did or people in another generation, sooo frickin tired of it. Have you not read any news or economic reports that it is getting HARDER for average workers? Do you really not see the glaring hypocrisy in what you are saying? How do you feel about planned parenthood? Should we defund that, then afterward mandate who can and cannot have children? This is insane...I cannot be in this conversation anymore.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Apr 20, 2011 18:34:27 GMT -5
"Tired of hearing about what your parents did or people in another generation, sooo frickin tired of it. Have you not read any news or economic reports that it is getting HARDER for average workers? Do you really not see the glaring hypocrisy in what you are saying? How do you feel about planned parenthood? Should we defund that, then afterward mandate who can and cannot have children? This is insane...I cannot be in this conversation anymore. Maybe you should come live in my world... spend many years working full time while going to college full time. Live with roommates and don't have the latest gadget. I'm not going to apologize for what I have.. I've worked hard to get here. Everyone has the same 24 hours in their day.. it is up to you how you use them. Don't want to use them to take actions which will get you more? Well, that's your choice. But you get to deal with the results of that choice. You want to talk about "fair"... complaining when you don't have what someone else has even though they put in more effort, work, and risked more to get where they are? What is that? As far as not wanting to hear about what my parents and people in other generations did? Well, what do you think we learn from? HISTORY. If you don't pay attention to history, there is no way to learn what worked and what didn't work without paying the price of making mistakes over and over. My parents had to raise children during the recession of the late 1970s/early 1980s. The time of rampant inflation and college grads having to fight for jobs at McDonalds (per my stepmother). Does this sound familiar? My parents had to by food and gas for a family of 4 for a week on $18 (Looking at inflation calculators... that would be about $43 today). Could you do this? They did.... and didn't whine about what the govt owed them and how the rich were evil. They pulled up their big boy pants and took care of business. Maybe we should learn a little more from the past and not spend so much time whining...
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Apr 20, 2011 18:34:57 GMT -5
"Maybe you do not see the people who work HARD and still need help like your secretary, construction worker, grocery clerk none of those jobs pay a true living wage try living on that and saving for retirement while raising a family." Here's a novel idea, if you can't afford to raise a family, stop reproducing like rabbits. Those jobs all pay plenty for a person to live off of, they just don't pay enough to live off of if you make stupid decisions that you can't afford. You don't have some inalienable right to pop out kids you can't afford to take care of. While I agree completely you shouldn't have kids if you can't afford them, how sad is it that 50% of the country is too poor to pay taxes - and therefore shouldn't have children. Doesn't that say something horrible about the quality of our system?
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Apr 20, 2011 18:39:13 GMT -5
Skinny, Not paying taxes does not mean that you are poor. The tax code is so backwards that what you pay is dependent upon deductions, credits, and a million other factors. Just because you don't pay taxes doesn't mean that you can't afford to have children and take care of them. There are people across the tax brackets that pay no taxes but I certainly wouldn't say that all of them can't afford kids. you can have an income of $100k and pay no taxes.. it just depends on what it going on. I certainly wouldn't say that person couldn't afford children so the 50% statistic really means nothing about the system except that a good number of people pay nothing in t axes.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Apr 20, 2011 18:53:43 GMT -5
You can say people are whining or jealous of what you have or someone else has but it has no validity in this conversation. I never said anything about me or anyone else wanting what you have I don't even know what you and don't care. Unless you are talking about the ability to feed and clothe their family as the things you have WHILE working than yes. These are not unreasonable requests in a civilized productive society. Please understand my point that there will ALWAYS be a large percent of people who will live in poverty. Even if everyone got a college degree the standards would just change and their would still be the poor. IT IS THE NATURE OF THE GAME, got it.
As for your parents I am sure they struggled as many do, so maybe you should realize how many people still do. What they would think about the current state of the country I do not know, they lived in an era of rapid growth available even increased social services, higher tax rate on the rich, strong unions. So if you are telling me they would have voted against these things during those years I would call your bluff.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Apr 20, 2011 19:43:45 GMT -5
Another thing is all the blue collar people can live a modest life but only in spite of the current republican agenda, not because of it. Even though it has been eroding away for quite a few years, now people are fighting to stop it at least not make it any worse.
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Post by illinicheme on Apr 20, 2011 20:15:26 GMT -5
And I'm on track to be one. I've been burned by a CEO telling me to my face "we have plenty of operating cash to survive for at least three years" and then laying off 50% of the company a mere two weeks later. That is not an unusual situation in today's market. Many companies are now flush with cash. But there is no market for their products. So, if you can't find buyers for your product, you have to slow down production - you can't just stack the goods in the parking lot. The point - the layoff had nothing to do with the 3-yr supply of money in the company treasury, it had to do with the poor economy. Believe me, he would much rather have a high demand for his product so that he could invest that money to add more workers, more equipment, etc. I understand why it was done, but it doesn't leave a good taste in the mouth. (In this case, there is no product....yet. It was a typical biotech cycle of fire people as soon as they get you far enough along in the pipeline. Always try to run with the minimum until you can get the company sold and escape out the door with your pile of money. Damn the talented technical folks who got you there. Damn the rest of the potential products. Stop work on that innovation. Was just a lesson that all CEOs are essentially the same, and not to put any faith in any "we're different" bullcrap messages.)
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Apr 20, 2011 20:18:11 GMT -5
Because, according to the UHC in Britain, women only need pap smears every 5 years. Sorry ladies, no more annuals; they aren't needed.
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Post by lonewolf2019 on Apr 20, 2011 20:21:46 GMT -5
"As far as not wanting to hear about what my parents and people in other generations did? Well, what do you think we learn from? HISTORY. If you don't pay attention to history, there is no way to learn what worked and what didn't work without paying the price of making mistakes over and over. My parents had to raise children during the recession of the late 1970s/early 1980s. The time of rampant inflation and college grads having to fight for jobs at McDonalds (per my stepmother). Does this sound familiar? My parents had to by food and gas for a family of 4 for a week on $18 (Looking at inflation calculators... that would be about $43 today). Could you do this? They did.... and didn't whine about what the govt owed them and how the rich were evil. They pulled up their big boy pants and took care of business."
My parents didn't stand around, wringing their hands and demanding more from the rich. They were grateful that someone was rich enough to give them employment. Today so many don't know which side their bread is buttered on.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Apr 20, 2011 20:36:51 GMT -5
"Today so many don't know which side their bread is buttered on."
Apparently neither do you. Show where or how trickle down economics works. Show me how reducing the tax rate on the rich has made this economy better and created jobs. Show me how eliminating social programs has improved any society. Show me how your parents lived in a time and prospered with low tax rate on the rich and minimal social programs. She me a time your economic theory has been played out in history without negative consequence. Because you cannot do any of these things but believe in a failed and dangerous policy.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 20, 2011 21:22:10 GMT -5
Actually, it seems that YOU do not understand that. I have no problem with the fact that some people will be on top and some will not. I do have a problem with the fact that those on the bottom seem to think that the ones on top owe them something. Even if the work really hard.
Lena
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Apr 20, 2011 21:29:53 GMT -5
So it is NOT about working hard, which I seem to hear constantly from the republicans especially ayn rand loving wierdos. But actually about who got there first and screw the rest of you. Is that what you are saying? Because it sounds exactly like that. I guess the true colors come out when pressed hard enough.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 20, 2011 21:31:41 GMT -5
No, that wasn't what I was saying, but I don't like talking to you. You are too emotional and you are getting quite personal with me for no reason.
So, have a good night. I am done
Lena
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Apr 20, 2011 21:48:08 GMT -5
OK sorry I offended this is a very emotional topic for me. I really don't like what I see and hear going on right now. I will admit I get very hot headed about this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 21:48:19 GMT -5
A lot of people who earn more than 250k actually own small businesses and pay their taxes as income. DH owns a percentage in some businesses. While higher taxes won't make him close those businesses it will make him invest his dollars elsewhere. Until I married him I had no idea of the vagaries of tax code in relation to small businesses. Some years we've have made a lot of money - in other years we have paid more in taxes than we have received in income in order to reinvest in the businesses. Frankly it takes a lot of fortitude and savings to be willing to deal with the ups and downs in revenue and taxes.
While I think that we could probably stand to have taxes be a little higher (on most income groups) I think people really don't understand who is paying these taxes. It's not all doctors and lawyers - it's people with choices about where they invest their capital.
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Post by lonewolf2019 on Apr 20, 2011 21:55:07 GMT -5
So it is NOT about working hard, which I seem to hear constantly from the republicans especially ayn rand loving wierdos. But actually about who got there first and screw the rest of you. Is that what you are saying? Because it sounds exactly like that. I guess the true colors come out when pressed hard enough. It's more than just working hard. It's about making the right choices in your life. Why should someone who has made the right choices, supplement someone who hasn't? Why do you feel like you've been screwed? Weren't you given the same opportunities to make it as the rest of us?
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Apr 20, 2011 21:57:41 GMT -5
lonewolf I don't think you get my points at all and you are just arguing principle not reality.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 20, 2011 22:05:46 GMT -5
This is not a forum that embraces the "handout" mentality in case you haven't noticed.
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Post by lonewolf2019 on Apr 20, 2011 22:16:25 GMT -5
lonewolf I don't think you get my points at all and you are just arguing principle not reality. Shelby, trust me...I know both sides of the reality. It's you who I don't think does.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Apr 20, 2011 22:32:47 GMT -5
I don't think anybody embraces the handout mentality. The issue goes much deeper than that and don't let that one piece of it blind to you to the rest of the issues. You can agree or disagree with any part, I have stated many times I am talking about people who work for a living. I am advocating for them who already walk a very fine line of financial despair and inability to feed there families, not because they want free everything but because it is increasingly harder to find good jobs and jobs that pay a living wage. This is the biggest discrepancy I have with republican policy. How can you tell people to go fend for themselves but not advocate for workers rights or living wages. Telling people to not have kids but not give them access to cheap family planning. Do you not see the cruel irony here? I know I am not alone maybe on this board but the polls show far from alone.
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lurkyloo
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Post by lurkyloo on Apr 20, 2011 23:03:02 GMT -5
We're also not big on emotional outbursts to the exclusion of logic. Most of the board will agree with the "a hand up is fine, a hand out is not" mentality. We believe in a safety net, not a safety hammock--that people who are truly down on their luck should be able to obtain the bare necessities, NOT be given a comfortable living. That's what motivates people to better themselves--to go take night classes or whatever, to acquire new skills, to find a (better) job that enables a better standard of living. America was founded largely on the idea that you could be whatever you wanted--but you had to work for it, to earn it. A big part of society seems to be diverging away from the concept of personal responsibility, which isn't good. If you don't have to work to ensure survival (especially when you're not allowed to keep what you earn when you do work) then there's no motivation to work hard/develop new technology/etc. Why get off your ass to go learn to program in HTML when it's easier to sit on the couch and stare at the TV? But don't take my word for it; go ask the former Soviet Union.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Apr 20, 2011 23:05:16 GMT -5
Add an "even if it costs me my job, they pass the costs on to me, or I take a pay cut" to the question. You'll get a more honest answer.
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