Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 10:54:12 GMT -5
I don't think 50% of the U.S. makes too little to trigger taxes so there is something inherent in the tax codes that makes 50% of them not pay.
I think it would be worth examining different income bands and the percentage they pay . . . and why.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 11:14:57 GMT -5
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Post by lonewolf2019 on Apr 20, 2011 11:15:08 GMT -5
Sure, let's slam the rich, then watch them take their games to another country. Sounds good to me. Where would they go? I hear this argument a lot and seriously can't imagine. What country is better to live in? Other western countries have higher taxes than us. Countries with lower taxes are not exactly ones I want to live in. It's a hollow threat. Are you kidding? Ask any businessman how he deals with the thousands of pages of laws ranging from tax, to labor, to OSHA, EPA etc., and he will tell you why he can't do business here in the US. If taking a business out of the country is so bad, why would a company like John Deere be spending a 100 million to build in China and India? Go ahead and raise the taxes on the producers and then come here and ask why no one is hiring.
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parker1b2
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Post by parker1b2 on Apr 20, 2011 11:44:13 GMT -5
Karma to you lonewolf... just politicians trying to start class warfare and make the "rich" the villain. Most people come to these boards to better themselves financially and I think hopefully become rich and wealthy. And honestly do you think the will just stop at 250K? If they tax them, then all of a sudden we need to tax people making 150K then 100K etc. Once they start raising taxes they won't stop. And if raising taxes increases revenue (which has been shown time and time again LOWERING taxes raises revenue) they will just spend it, not cut debt,
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Apr 20, 2011 11:45:31 GMT -5
Nit-Pick One trillion is one thousand billions, not one billion billions.
Nope, no nit-picking, my bad...
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 20, 2011 11:51:58 GMT -5
I am no economist and even though familiar with our tax laws, by no means an expert. But I do know one thing - taking and taking and taking more and more and more from people who have it to give it to people who don't - DOES NOT WORK. It never did and never will. It's quite that simple.
The fact that 72% of our country is that stupid that they think it will work is very troubling.
Lena
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Apr 20, 2011 11:52:30 GMT -5
Where would they go? I hear this argument a lot and seriously can't imagine. What country is better to live in? Other western countries have higher taxes than us. Countries with lower taxes are not exactly ones I want to live in. It's a hollow threat. Are you kidding? Ask any businessman how he deals with the thousands of pages of laws ranging from tax, to labor, to OSHA, EPA etc., and he will tell you why he can't do business here in the US. If taking a business out of the country is so bad, why would a company like John Deere be spending a 100 million to build in China and India? Go ahead and raise the taxes on the producers and then come here and ask why no one is hiring. Yes but those are business taxes. We're talking personal income taxes. I don't think the OWNERS of companies are moving to China or India. I'd like to know where high personal income earners would move to that is better than the US.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 20, 2011 11:53:42 GMT -5
"There's no reason why close to 50% of Americans don't pay federal income tax." But they don't mind using services that cost! So trying to squeeze more out of 1% of the population makes no numerical sense." Bottom 50% = 13.5% of total US AGI Top 1% = 20% of total US AGI ... Theres some numerical information for you... Oped don't you know by now that using facts to win an emotional argument never works?
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Apr 20, 2011 12:00:16 GMT -5
One trillion is one billion billions. Wrap your heads around that one to really understand the problem. One billion is 10^9 One Trillion is 10^12 One Trillion is one thousand Billions. A Billion Billions would be 10^18, or a quintillion.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Apr 20, 2011 12:01:44 GMT -5
I am no economist and even though familiar with our tax laws, by no means an expert. But I do know one thing - taking and taking and taking more and more and more from people who have it to give it to people who don't - DOES NOT WORK. It never did and never will. It's quite that simple. The fact that 72% of our country is that stupid that they think it will work is very troubling. Lena I don't know where this idea comes from - "the people who don't work".... The working poor DO work! I was a member of the working poor class for years. Believe me, they WORK! They simply do not earn a lot of money.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 20, 2011 12:03:13 GMT -5
I didn't say "people" don't work, I said that idea doesn't work. Read my post again
Lena
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Apr 20, 2011 12:06:30 GMT -5
Any sort of additional levy, or increase in rates on higher income earners will barely raise $10 billion in marginal revenue. And that guestimate completely ignores the multitude of other variables in the equation. That is why I favor raising taxes on everyone.
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Post by lonewolf2019 on Apr 20, 2011 12:08:14 GMT -5
Skinny...How taxes work has never made any sense to me. Why do people feel that Joe Ditch Digger should keep more of his tax money than Joe Businessman, who is earning a much better living? Didn't they both make decisions to be where they are? When it comes to taxes, why should one be favored over the other?
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Post by lonewolf2019 on Apr 20, 2011 12:11:28 GMT -5
I am no economist and even though familiar with our tax laws, by no means an expert. But I do know one thing - taking and taking and taking more and more and more from people who have it to give it to people who don't - DOES NOT WORK. It never did and never will. It's quite that simple. The fact that 72% of our country is that stupid that they think it will work is very troubling. Lena I don't know where this idea comes from - "the people who don't work".... The working poor DO work! I was a member of the working poor class for years. Believe me, they WORK! They simply do not earn a lot of money. Why do you think that some work and earn the money, while others work and don't earn the money? Not being snarky, just curious to know what you think.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 20, 2011 12:17:42 GMT -5
I don't know where this idea comes from - "the people who don't work".... The working poor DO work! I was a member of the working poor class for years. Believe me, they WORK! They simply do not earn a lot of money. Why do you think that some work and earn the money, while others work and don't earn the money? Not being snarky, just curious to know what you think. She didn't say they don't earn money. She said that the poor work and earn very little money.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 20, 2011 12:21:58 GMT -5
"If taking a business out of the country is so bad, why would a company like John Deere be spending a 100 million to build in China and India?"
First of all 100 million isn't an extreme amount of money to an enormous company like that. 2nd of all, John Deere is building in many countries in the world because they are selling in many countries in the world. They also have operations in Europe and South America. It's a lot easier to build what you are going to sell in that location than to build everything in the US and ship massive machines around the world. It also has plenty to do with the cost of labor.
"Ask any businessman how he deals with the thousands of pages of laws ranging from tax, to labor, to OSHA, EPA etc., and he will tell you why he can't do business here in the US. "
Where will we find them to ask them this? Oh, right, in the US.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Apr 20, 2011 12:27:59 GMT -5
taking and taking and taking more and more and more from people who have it to give it to people who don't
This is what I was referring to. There are plenty of people who work, but earn too little to have a federal tax liability. They still pay payroll, sales and (sometimes) property taxes.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 12:32:07 GMT -5
As the saying goes
"skills pay the bills"
be it education, a trade, or being an athlete
If you can do something other people cant, you can make more money than the average Joe
Not a hard concept....too bad some will NEVER get it
Bad decisions lead to bad income....which leads to them leeching off those that made the right decisions
Not all.....some HAVE to be helped....but the rolls of the poor continue to grow every year....and poor decisions is the main reason behind it
How many drop out of school every year...and are forever destined to be fry cooks or work at Walmart
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Apr 20, 2011 12:37:28 GMT -5
Skinny...How taxes work has never made any sense to me. Why do people feel that Joe Ditch Digger should keep more of his tax money than Joe Businessman, who is earning a much better living? Didn't they both make decisions to be where they are? When it comes to taxes, why should one be favored over the other? We could spend hours (and we do) debating the craziness of the tax code. My point is just that high earners threatening to move out of the US is a bullsh*t threat. There is no place better to go to. Sure, people may move from state to state to avoid state taxes, but I challenge anyone to move to another country to avoid paying Federal income taxes.
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Post by lonewolf2019 on Apr 20, 2011 12:38:13 GMT -5
Why do you think that some work and earn the money, while others work and don't earn the money? Not being snarky, just curious to know what you think. She didn't say they don't earn money. She said that the poor work and earn very little money. Beach...That's what I meant. Thanks.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 12:41:50 GMT -5
This is what I was referring to. There are plenty of people who work, but earn too little to have a federal tax liability. We are now at about 50% that "earn too little to have a federal tax liability." Something is wrong. If raising taxes is the solution than increase taxes. Don't say we will just increase taxes on those people. They won't do that though, because they will lose votes.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 20, 2011 12:48:08 GMT -5
How many drop out of school every year...and are forever destined to be fry cooks or work at Walmart So they'd be better off with student loan debt while being a fry cook or working at Walmart? There are fewer jobs out there than people to fill them. That means some people that want a better job are going to be stuck working a crap job instead. Some of those that want to work won't even be able to get a crap job. I'm not so sure student loan debt is the slam dunk it used to be.
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brdsl
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Post by brdsl on Apr 20, 2011 13:00:58 GMT -5
I guess I have a problem with the poor vs rich definition.
I have never been rich, I have been poor, but have paid some federal taxes for the last 17 years.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Apr 20, 2011 13:01:45 GMT -5
This is what I was referring to. There are plenty of people who work, but earn too little to have a federal tax liability. We are now at about 50% that "earn too little to have a federal tax liability." Something is wrong. Actually only about 10% have no federal tax liability. 50% have no federal income tax liability. Poor pay most of their federal taxes through other taxation means.
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Post by lonewolf2019 on Apr 20, 2011 13:02:21 GMT -5
Skinny...How taxes work has never made any sense to me. Why do people feel that Joe Ditch Digger should keep more of his tax money than Joe Businessman, who is earning a much better living? Didn't they both make decisions to be where they are? When it comes to taxes, why should one be favored over the other? We could spend hours (and we do) debating the craziness of the tax code. My point is just that high earners threatening to move out of the US is a bullsh*t threat. There is no place better to go to. Sure, people may move from state to state to avoid state taxes, but I challenge anyone to move to another country to avoid paying Federal income taxes. It's not a BS threat. The rich are leaving. Look it up.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Apr 20, 2011 13:08:28 GMT -5
To where? Seriously, some 45yo lawyer/doctor/banker making 500K/yr with a wife and three kids is going to leave the US because income taxes go up? Where do they go to? Where can they go where they get the same education/amenities/cultural environment. Most every other western country has HIGHER taxes than us. Countries with lower taxes...I'm not so sure you want to raise a family there. People may RETIRE somewhere 3rd world to get the most bang for their buck (although I think that sucks from a grandparent point of view) but high-income working people are not going anywhere.
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ugga81
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Post by ugga81 on Apr 20, 2011 13:12:45 GMT -5
This message has been deleted.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 20, 2011 13:13:02 GMT -5
I am an example of a former business person that sold out at of a very successful business at age 49 after the Clinton tax increases. All taxes combined put me over 50% in what was being taken for taxes at all levels. I had the ability to retire so I did. It was not worth the constant risk to my personal assets to continue in business even though I was very successful if I had to pay the government over 50% of what I made. Beleive me the "rich" have many ways to lower their income and retiring is one of them. If you sold your business then someone else is running it. You did nothing to change the taxes, you only shifted the taxes from yourself to someone else.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 20, 2011 13:18:56 GMT -5
Which means there's a whole in your market that some other guy can come fill. From the government's perspective it doesn't really matter whether you personally pay those taxes or a competitor does.
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Post by robbase on Apr 20, 2011 13:21:56 GMT -5
I said this before on another thread, but I'll say it again
first let the government PROVE for 2 years it can live within its means or on a fixed budget, until then you cannot convince me any increased tax revenue will be used for "savings" or reducing our debt.
After this 2 year period I will support a modest tax hike on whoever (for argument sake I will agree raising taxes will lead to more gov revenue (although really I don't believe this will happen))
otherwise it would be like a kid that you give him a $5 weekly allowance and he spends $8 every week (for the last ten years), do you really think giving him more money will solve the problem?
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