hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 20, 2011 13:22:06 GMT -5
sorry hoops My business was very dependent on myself as are most small businesses run by "rich" people. I sold the building, sold the equipment, let the employees go, farmed out my existing business, etc. No one else is running my business. It is gone as are the taxes the government collected from it. Unless no one else is servicing your prior customers someone is making that money you used to make though. You might be rich running a tire shop and decide to close down and retire. Someone is still selling tires to your old customers and paying those same taxes though. Unless all of your customers also went out of business, your "tax money" didn't actually go anywhere, it simply transferred to another entity. Retirement does little to nothing to change taxes at the macro level, it simply shifts the taxes from one entity to another. Without knowing specifics, it seems unlikely that your entire industry shut down when you retired. That money you used to make went somewhere, and someone is being taxed on it instead of you.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 20, 2011 13:25:25 GMT -5
Dark have you ever owned a business? It does not work that way except perhaps in the economics classroom or the white house strategy room. It doesn't? So if you own a grocery store and sell everything off and retire...people simply stop buying groceries? It most certainly does work that way in nearly every segment of the economy. I leave room for some special exceptions, but it absolutely works that way the majority of the time.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 20, 2011 13:27:03 GMT -5
have you ever owned a business? Briefly, I made the mistake of hiring a friend who screwed me over and cost me our only customer. It was a service business, and you better believe that they hired somebody else to provide the service the day after they let me know that I wouldn't be doing so anymore.
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brdsl
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Post by brdsl on Apr 20, 2011 13:27:57 GMT -5
How is that theory working out right now in Detroit?
People in the south love the new jobs....guess what, they still pay $$$ in taxes to the fed.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 20, 2011 13:30:32 GMT -5
How is that theory working out right now in Detroit? What one person in Detroit retired and thereby stopped all income taxes in the entire sector from being collected?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 13:32:36 GMT -5
have you ever owned a business? Briefly, I made the mistake of hiring a friend who screwed me over and cost me our only customer. I think having only one customer is a bigger mistake.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 20, 2011 13:35:33 GMT -5
I think having only one customer is a bigger mistake. Give me a break, I was just getting started. I worked the one account, built up a good relationship, then hired somebody else to work it, while I looked for other accounts. I though I could trust my friend to do a decent job without somebody there supervising him, but not so much.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 13:36:11 GMT -5
Just busting balls.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 13:36:18 GMT -5
We are now at about 50% that "earn too little to have a federal tax liability." Something is wrong. Actually only about 10% have no federal tax liability. 50% have no federal income tax liability. Poor pay most of their federal taxes through other taxation means. Sorry, my mistake in wording. Does this mean we consider 50% poor, because they are paying their federal taxes through other taxation means?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Apr 20, 2011 13:41:27 GMT -5
We could spend hours (and we do) debating the craziness of the tax code. My point is just that high earners threatening to move out of the US is a bullsh*t threat. There is no place better to go to. Sure, people may move from state to state to avoid state taxes, but I challenge anyone to move to another country to avoid paying Federal income taxes. It's not a BS threat. The rich are leaving. Look it up. They are paying a lower effective rate than they have in years. So, why are they supposedly all leaving now?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 20, 2011 13:42:31 GMT -5
Just busting balls. It's all good. I was young and stupid. I learned a lot though, and I didn't have very much tied up in the business anyway.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Apr 20, 2011 13:46:33 GMT -5
Actually only about 10% have no federal tax liability. 50% have no federal income tax liability. Poor pay most of their federal taxes through other taxation means. Sorry, my mistake in wording. Does this mean we consider 50% poor, because they are paying their federal taxes through other taxation means? I don't necessarily assume someone paying 0 in federal income taxes is poor. A family making 60K could pay 0, while a single person making 15K could be paying several hundred. I think you tax liability isn't a good indicator of how poor a person is.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Apr 20, 2011 13:46:37 GMT -5
Definitely raise taxes on wealthy and do not cut social spending. We do have the lowest tax rate pretty much ever for the rich and one of the lowest for industrialized nations. If corporations move fine then impose tariffs, stop making it easy for them to leave. The cuts have not improved our economy or the middle class in fact the opposite has happened, still no proof at all we have gained from them. As far as social spending we spend the least on those programs for industrialized nations as well. To cut programs we have had for decades even though we already had welfare reform while decreasing taxes for the rich is cruel and really does make us look bad to other nations. We happen to be at a critical point of need for these programs with record unemployment, record bankruptcies, stagnant to decreasing wages, high food inflation. People who vote for things might want to look at their faith a little closer if they have one because I do not believe any true Christian would condone such things.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 20, 2011 13:51:57 GMT -5
I have to question the idea that a business will leave. As I stated before, taxes are at historic lows, so why didn't the wealthy businessmen leave then when taxes were higher?
As far as a businessman retiring. Yes, many will, but let's think this out.
If a business is sucessful, there's demand for that product or service.
If a business closes it's doors due to taxes, that doesn't stop the demand for that good or service.
So if there's profit to be made, then another business will step in to fill the void and they'll pay the taxes.
So from the government's perspective, it doesn't matter who pays the taxes. All you've accomplished by closing your business is shift the tax burden to someone else.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 20, 2011 13:57:08 GMT -5
"It most certainly does work that way in nearly every segment of the economy. I leave room for some special exceptions, but it absolutely works that way the majority of the time."
Agreed. The demand doesn't change just because the supply changes. If you run a successful business that means that there's a demand for that product or service. That demand isn't just going to disappear because you decide to shut everything down. A competitor will take over or someone will start up a new business to fill the void.
Besides, I thought if there was an increase in taxes the owner would simply pass the increase along to the consumer via higher prices.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Apr 20, 2011 13:57:14 GMT -5
Also if corporations leave it could create ease of entry for smaller businesses..do we really need to have an oligarchy?
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Apr 20, 2011 13:58:44 GMT -5
Sorry didn't see my point already made.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 14:16:21 GMT -5
So they'd be better off with student loan debt while being a fry cook or working at Walmart? There are fewer jobs out there than people to fill them. That means some people that want a better job are going to be stuck working a crap job instead. Some of those that want to work won't even be able to get a crap job. I'm not so sure student loan debt is the slam dunk it used to be.
I dont know anyone that has a degree in engineering that is unemployed. There are probably some....but i dont know any. I also dont know anyone with a degree in nursing that is currently unemployed....again...there probably are some.
Degrees in certain fields lead to JOBS. Others lead to debt and desperation. And it seems like the HARDER disciplines lead to more jobs....and higher incomes. Fair....maybe not.....true....absolutely
Again...pretty simple. How many other people have YOUR same skills. The more there are, the less the wages will be in that job or field.
There is no simple answer to all the problems...but teaching our children that fact, will lead them to better decision making, and a better life.
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Post by lonewolf2019 on Apr 20, 2011 14:38:13 GMT -5
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Apr 20, 2011 15:22:55 GMT -5
Might better do a bit of research first - could be in for a surprise ;D
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Apr 20, 2011 15:36:27 GMT -5
More often than closing up shop, businesses leave through indirect means. The company I work for sells products that use castings. The cost of the castings is affected by, among other things, income taxes. The more income taxes an employee must pay, the higher wages the employee demands from the employer, so the cost of castings goes up. About 10 years ago, all of the castings came from foundries located in the US. During the last year, we quit buying castings from the last US foundry. All castings are now purchased from Korea, China, and India. Why? One of the last castings to move off shore cost about $23.25 from the US supplier. For $3.17, an off shore supplier provides the same casting, only the offshore supplier provides it painted, rather than as raw cast iron. Part of the $23.25 cost is the taxes on owners and employees. Now how many jobs do you suppose could have existed in the US if all of those castings continued to be made in the US? How much of our 15% unemployment is related to business activities being moved out of the US while the "name" stays here? Or how many "names" have moved their headquarters to places like Switzerland in order to not pay US income taxes on income earned in foreign countries? Close up shop? No. Relocate operations to more tax favorable countries? Yes! Whether you close up shop or relocate operations, the effect is the same. Tax revenues and jobs move outside the US.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Apr 20, 2011 16:05:42 GMT -5
Even completely elimating taxes would not make up the difference in prices on these. There is a lot more going on than just taxes when companies choose to move overseas, although taxes factor into the equation. Cheap labor & lack of a lot of the working requirements from osha & the govt has a huge impact.
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Post by lonewolf2019 on Apr 20, 2011 16:11:47 GMT -5
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Post by illinicheme on Apr 20, 2011 16:12:59 GMT -5
Isn't it pretty much a guarantee that everything is going to get outsourced overseas regardless of the US tax picture? Lower taxes won't necessarily equal "Hooray! We can keep using US-manufactured components and maintain our profits!" It'll probably equal "Hooray! Now we can continue with our outsourcing plan and also increase our profits!"
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Post by lonewolf2019 on Apr 20, 2011 16:17:34 GMT -5
Isn't it pretty much a guarantee that everything is going to get outsourced overseas regardless of the US tax picture? Lower taxes won't necessarily equal "Hooray! We can keep using US-manufactured components and maintain our profits!" It'll probably equal "Hooray! Now we can continue with our outsourcing plan and also increase our profits!" You're right. It's not just the taxes, it's all the other government BS, included. Unless you are wading in this carp, you will have no idea how deep it is.
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Post by illinicheme on Apr 20, 2011 16:20:29 GMT -5
Isn't it pretty much a guarantee that everything is going to get outsourced overseas regardless of the US tax picture? Lower taxes won't necessarily equal "Hooray! We can keep using US-manufactured components and maintain our profits!" It'll probably equal "Hooray! Now we can continue with our outsourcing plan and also increase our profits!" You're right. It's not just the taxes, it's all the other government BS, included. Unless you are wading in this carp, you will have no idea how deep it is. I understand the reasoning behind some of the trickle-down theories and whatnot, but I don't have much confidence in them. I do have confidence that unmitigated greed will continue to drive most everything in the world.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 20, 2011 16:21:31 GMT -5
My point was the idea that taxing the rich = taking from those who "have" and via numerous numerous numerous programs giving to the ones who "don't have" does not work.
Not only people who get paid little don't pay, they receive, receive, receive. Why should they?
And please spare me the "elderly and sick" examples.
Lena
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Apr 20, 2011 17:08:38 GMT -5
I understand the reasoning behind some of the trickle-down theories and whatnot, but I don't have much confidence in them. I do have confidence that unmitigated greed will continue to drive most everything in the world. Well, you may be a bit too cynical. The trickle-down theories actually worked well (particularly Art Laffer's theory) - it was the Left Media that had invented the pejorative and gave it the bad press. As for the unmitigated greed - the most successful of the SP500 companies (80% of US corporate capital) operate on an average margin of only 8% to 10%, and they compete diligently for our business to maintain that margin. The few that are in the 'unmitigated' category (Enron, etc) tend to crash & burn due to their faulty management. As others said, high taxes and heavy regs are part of what is driving production offshore. Another factor is unions, hard to compete when paying $40/hr for $18/hr worth of work. That aside, we can compete - we have the skills to invent/build automated equipment where a single operator can do the work of 10 laborers. And literally make it up in volume - ie, make 10X as many parts and sell them (competitively) in foreign markets. With a little help on taxes, regs, and unions, we would like to do exactly that.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Apr 20, 2011 17:18:59 GMT -5
"Not only people who get paid little don't pay, they receive, receive, receive. Why should they?"
Why shouldn't they? The system is rigged to have winners and losers not by design but in nature. Those who benefit the most keep gaining more and more unfair advantage. Spare me the they work hard crap, because so do the poor in majority (yes some do not but those are unintended consequences that happens with everything). We pride ourselves as one of the most powerful and prosperous nations why would we not take care of our poor? They do contribute to society maybe not the way YOU think they should but they still do. We are not hyenas that devour the weak we are Americans that care for our fellow citizens and neighbors. It is obvious that most people see these values as very important to this country others not so much luckily it is not the majority.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Apr 20, 2011 17:26:44 GMT -5
And can I just say I think Ayn Rand is seriously demented...just my opinion.
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