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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 3, 2020 14:36:35 GMT -5
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jun 3, 2020 14:44:25 GMT -5
I don't have the words to express how happy I am about this.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 3, 2020 14:47:29 GMT -5
Good..
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jun 3, 2020 14:49:49 GMT -5
Wonder which one makes a deal
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 3, 2020 15:08:12 GMT -5
Wonder which one makes a deal the one watching.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jun 3, 2020 15:25:56 GMT -5
Wonder which one makes a deal the one watching. Don’t know enough details, did some of them do more than watch?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 3, 2020 15:28:24 GMT -5
Don’t know enough details, did some of them do more than watch? I don't know for sure. The one guy was kneeling on floyd's neck, and two guys were right next to him. the 4th guy was in front of the car watching. I think he has hte least culpability unless there is a body cam of him telling everyone what to do.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 3, 2020 15:31:56 GMT -5
While I'm glad the others were charged with something, I am not glad about the upgrade to Murder 2. Murder 3 was good because the odds of conviction were high. Murder 2 means the odds of him only getting convicted on manslaughter charges go way up. I think a good win would be better than what happened to Trayvon Martin and his family in court.
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kadee79
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Post by kadee79 on Jun 3, 2020 15:43:44 GMT -5
While I'm glad the others were charged with something, I am not glad about the upgrade to Murder 2. Murder 3 was good because the odds of conviction were high. Murder 2 means the odds of him only getting convicted on manslaughter charges go way up. I think a good win would be better than what happened to Trayvon Martin and his family in court. The others couldn't be charged without upping the initial charge to man2. Otherwise, the other 3 would get off scott free!..only get fired.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Jun 3, 2020 15:59:37 GMT -5
In Seattle you can pump five rounds into an innocent Native carver and get off scott free due to some special law that protects cops. We’ll see what happens here but the murderer of Philando was acquitted.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 3, 2020 16:22:42 GMT -5
While I'm glad the others were charged with something, I am not glad about the upgrade to Murder 2. Murder 3 was good because the odds of conviction were high. Murder 2 means the odds of him only getting convicted on manslaughter charges go way up. I think a good win would be better than what happened to Trayvon Martin and his family in court. The others couldn't be charged without upping the initial charge to man2. Otherwise, the other 3 would get off scott free!..only get fired. Yes I read why the charge was upped to murder two, but I think it would have been better to stick with Murder 3 AND work on creating laws that will prevent the behavior of the other officers. Not being a lawyer, I can guess that if Chauvin is not convicted of Murder 2 that the other three officers will have charges dropped by default. Not getting anyone convicted of wrong doing is probably going to cause bigger riots than what we have now. I read the article and the lawyer is already using hedging language. He doesn't see convictions in the future either. This is opinion, but I think a worthy read. hotair.com/archives/jazz-shaw/2020/06/01/can-derek-chauvin-convicted/As the case against him moves from the court of public opinion to the Hennepin County District Court, prosecutors will face significant challenges in securing a conviction…
As a former prosecutor, though, I am well aware of the difficulty of convicting a police officer. The odds are against it. Since 2005, approximately 100 officers have been charged with homicide for using deadly force in the line duty. But most of those officers walked; the charges were dismissed or they were acquitted.
As of 2019, there had been only 35 convictions, almost all for manslaughter or negligent homicide, not murder.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Jun 3, 2020 16:58:15 GMT -5
Don’t know enough details, did some of them do more than watch? I don't know for sure. The one guy was kneeling on floyd's neck, and two guys were right next to him. the 4th guy was in front of the car watching. I think he has hte least culpability unless there is a body cam of him telling everyone what to do. I don't know who is who as far as names other than Chauvin, but two were kneeling on his back and then one guy was watching.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 3, 2020 17:01:43 GMT -5
I wonder if any of the three officers will state during their trials they should have said something to Chauvin about getting off of Floyd but then thought better of it because they were afraid of overriding Chauvin.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 3, 2020 17:09:13 GMT -5
While I'm glad the others were charged with something, I am not glad about the upgrade to Murder 2. Murder 3 was good because the odds of conviction were high. Murder 2 means the odds of him only getting convicted on manslaughter charges go way up. I think a good win would be better than what happened to Trayvon Martin and his family in court. The others couldn't be charged without upping the initial charge to man2. Otherwise, the other 3 would get off scott free!..only get fired. Someone on Fox news gave a short legal analysis of why their firings won't hold up and they will get their jobs back
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 3, 2020 17:09:58 GMT -5
"If you see something, say something' comes to mind. That should apply to the police departments too.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 3, 2020 17:33:10 GMT -5
The police system in our country has been a problem across the board for a long ass time. Most people just didn't see it because it effected "bad" white people and black people the most. I still don't know if most see it with the numbers calling for our militarized police to just shut the protests down.
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jelloshots4all
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Post by jelloshots4all on Jun 3, 2020 18:13:00 GMT -5
The others couldn't be charged without upping the initial charge to man2. Otherwise, the other 3 would get off scott free!..only get fired. Yes I read why the charge was upped to murder two, but I think it would have been better to stick with Murder 3 AND work on creating laws that will prevent the behavior of the other officers. Not being a lawyer, I can guess that if Chauvin is not convicted of Murder 2 that the other three officers will have charges dropped by default. Not getting anyone convicted of wrong doing is probably going to cause bigger riots than what we have now. I read the article and the lawyer is already using hedging language. He doesn't see convictions in the future either. This is opinion, but I think a worthy read. hotair.com/archives/jazz-shaw/2020/06/01/can-derek-chauvin-convicted/As the case against him moves from the court of public opinion to the Hennepin County District Court, prosecutors will face significant challenges in securing a conviction…
As a former prosecutor, though, I am well aware of the difficulty of convicting a police officer. The odds are against it. Since 2005, approximately 100 officers have been charged with homicide for using deadly force in the line duty. But most of those officers walked; the charges were dismissed or they were acquitted.
As of 2019, there had been only 35 convictions, almost all for manslaughter or negligent homicide, not murder.Everything I've heard about the MN AG, and watching his comments today, He wouldn't have moved it to murder 2 without enough to prove it. I've watched that 9 minute video too many times. Police officers should not be held above the law they signed up to honor and protect
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 3, 2020 18:43:03 GMT -5
609.19 MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
Subdivision 1.Intentional murder; drive-by shootings.
Whoever does either of the following is guilty of murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:
(1) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of that person or another, but without premeditation; or
(2) causes the death of a human being while committing or attempting to commit a drive-by shooting in violation of section 609.66, subdivision 1e, under circumstances other than those described in section 609.185, paragraph (a), clause (3).
Subd. 2.Unintentional murders.
Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:
(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or
(2) causes the death of a human being without intent to effect the death of any person, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict bodily harm upon the victim, when the perpetrator is restrained under an order for protection and the victim is a person designated to receive protection under the order. As used in this clause, "order for protection" includes an order for protection issued under chapter 518B; a harassment restraining order issued under section 609.748; a court order setting conditions of pretrial release or conditions of a criminal sentence or juvenile court disposition; a restraining order issued in a marriage dissolution action; and any order issued by a court of another state or of the United States that is similar to any of these orders.
History:
1963 c 753 art 1 s 609.19; 1981 c 227 s 10; 1992 c 571 art 4 s 6; 1995 c 226 art 2 s 16; 1996 c 408 art 4 s 8; 1998 c 367 art 2 s 8; 2015 c 21 art 1 s 99
link So they need to prove he was committing felony assault. Off to find what that takes.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 3, 2020 19:03:52 GMT -5
Subd. 10.Assault. "Assault" is: (1) an act done with intent to cause fear in another of immediate bodily harm or death; or (2) the intentional infliction of or attempt to inflict bodily harm upon another. -------- 609.223 ASSAULT IN THE THIRD DEGREE. Subdivision 1.Substantial bodily harm. Whoever assaults another and inflicts substantial bodily harm may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both. --------- 609.222 ASSAULT IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
Subdivision 1.Dangerous weapon.
Whoever assaults another with a dangerous weapon may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than seven years or to payment of a fine of not more than $14,000, or both. -------- 609.221 ASSAULT IN THE FIRST DEGREE. Subdivision 1.Great bodily harm. Whoever assaults another and inflicts great bodily harm may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 20 years or to payment of a fine of not more than $30,000, or both. -------- Subd. 7a.Substantial bodily harm. "Substantial bodily harm" means bodily injury which involves a temporary but substantial disfigurement, or which causes a temporary but substantial loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ, or which causes a fracture of any bodily member. --------- Subd. 8.Great bodily harm. "Great bodily harm" means bodily injury which creates a high probability of death, or which causes serious permanent disfigurement, or which causes a permanent or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ or other serious bodily harm. www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.02
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jun 3, 2020 19:25:33 GMT -5
The others couldn't be charged without upping the initial charge to man2. Otherwise, the other 3 would get off scott free!..only get fired. Yes I read why the charge was upped to murder two, but I think it would have been better to stick with Murder 3 AND work on creating laws that will prevent the behavior of the other officers. Not being a lawyer, I can guess that if Chauvin is not convicted of Murder 2 that the other three officers will have charges dropped by default. Not getting anyone convicted of wrong doing is probably going to cause bigger riots than what we have now. I read the article and the lawyer is already using hedging language. He doesn't see convictions in the future either. This is opinion, but I think a worthy read. hotair.com/archives/jazz-shaw/2020/06/01/can-derek-chauvin-convicted/As the case against him moves from the court of public opinion to the Hennepin County District Court, prosecutors will face significant challenges in securing a conviction…
As a former prosecutor, though, I am well aware of the difficulty of convicting a police officer. The odds are against it. Since 2005, approximately 100 officers have been charged with homicide for using deadly force in the line duty. But most of those officers walked; the charges were dismissed or they were acquitted.
As of 2019, there had been only 35 convictions, almost all for manslaughter or negligent homicide, not murder.Changing that is kind of the whole point of BLM. The system is rigged to encourage these acquittals. From laws that actually make it legal for cops to murder people to coroners that spin the COD so that it sounds like what the cop did didn't cause the death. (see "underlying health conditions killed Floyd after he was strangled for 9 minutes"
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 3, 2020 23:36:12 GMT -5
Subd. 10.Assault. "Assault" is: (1) an act done with intent to cause fear in another of immediate bodily harm or death; or (2) the intentional infliction of or attempt to inflict bodily harm upon another. -------- 609.223 ASSAULT IN THE THIRD DEGREE. Subdivision 1.Substantial bodily harm. Whoever assaults another and inflicts substantial bodily harm may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both. --------- 609.222 ASSAULT IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
Subdivision 1.Dangerous weapon.
Whoever assaults another with a dangerous weapon may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than seven years or to payment of a fine of not more than $14,000, or both. -------- 609.221 ASSAULT IN THE FIRST DEGREE. Subdivision 1.Great bodily harm. Whoever assaults another and inflicts great bodily harm may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 20 years or to payment of a fine of not more than $30,000, or both. -------- Subd. 7a.Substantial bodily harm. "Substantial bodily harm" means bodily injury which involves a temporary but substantial disfigurement, or which causes a temporary but substantial loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ, or which causes a fracture of any bodily member. --------- Subd. 8.Great bodily harm. "Great bodily harm" means bodily injury which creates a high probability of death, or which causes serious permanent disfigurement, or which causes a permanent or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ or other serious bodily harm. www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.02So this is where the case will be lost and it will appear nothing has changed. This is like the NYC chokehold case only worse. The argument will be that it was just a bad restraint technique, the intention was not to kill or cause great bodily harm. Intent will be tough to prove.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 4, 2020 0:04:29 GMT -5
Yes I read why the charge was upped to murder two, but I think it would have been better to stick with Murder 3 AND work on creating laws that will prevent the behavior of the other officers. Not being a lawyer, I can guess that if Chauvin is not convicted of Murder 2 that the other three officers will have charges dropped by default. Not getting anyone convicted of wrong doing is probably going to cause bigger riots than what we have now. I read the article and the lawyer is already using hedging language. He doesn't see convictions in the future either. This is opinion, but I think a worthy read. hotair.com/archives/jazz-shaw/2020/06/01/can-derek-chauvin-convicted/As the case against him moves from the court of public opinion to the Hennepin County District Court, prosecutors will face significant challenges in securing a conviction…
As a former prosecutor, though, I am well aware of the difficulty of convicting a police officer. The odds are against it. Since 2005, approximately 100 officers have been charged with homicide for using deadly force in the line duty. But most of those officers walked; the charges were dismissed or they were acquitted.
As of 2019, there had been only 35 convictions, almost all for manslaughter or negligent homicide, not murder.Changing that is kind of the whole point of BLM. The system is rigged to encourage these acquittals. From laws that actually make it legal for cops to murder people to coroners that spin the COD so that it sounds like what the cop did didn't cause the death. (see "underlying health conditions killed Floyd after he was strangled for 9 minutes" Right. But you aren't going to change the system by overshooting the mark and going into a funk or rioting when it predictably ends without convictions. IMO you need to shoot to what is achievable, get the success on that and then build on it by changing the culture of how police work happens and change or modify laws as well. Because this issue of police not being convicted is not just a black issue. It is a society issue. It hits black men more than average I believe because they are seen as scarier people than others because of their physical strength. So the police use more force because they fear for their lives more than if it was a little old lady or even an average white man who they think will play by the rules. So what can we do to at least stop over reaction from cops when handling low value non violent crimes? Maybe we could advocate to change the process. That alleged perps who are non violent don't have to come down to the station to be booked. Maybe they can be issued some sort of summons for a future local court date or something. I'm not sure what the answer is, but black men have a very reasonable fear of being made to go to the station and be transported there by police.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 4, 2020 8:18:18 GMT -5
Subd. 10.Assault. "Assault" is: (1) an act done with intent to cause fear in another of immediate bodily harm or death; or (2) the intentional infliction of or attempt to inflict bodily harm upon another.intent to cause fear in another of immediate bodily harm or death; -------- 609.223 ASSAULT IN THE THIRD DEGREE. Subdivision 1.Substantial bodily harm. Whoever assaults another and inflicts substantial bodily harm may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both. -------- Subd. 7a.Substantial bodily harm. "Substantial bodily harm" means bodily injury which involves a temporary but substantial disfigurement, or which causes a temporary but substantial loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ, or which causes a fracture of any bodily member. www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.02www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609Okay, I see how they could proceed with 2nd degree. So this is where the case will be lost and it will appear nothing has changed. This is like the NYC chokehold case only worse. The argument will be that it was just a bad restraint technique, the intention was not to kill or cause great bodily harm. Intent will be tough to prove. Leaving the knee in place when Floyd was saying he couldn't breathe shows "intent to cause fear in another of immediate bodily harm or death;". The knee "inflict(ed) substantial bodily harm", " a temporary but substantial loss or impairment of the function of (his heart)".
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 4, 2020 9:00:50 GMT -5
Floyd was already in fear before the police got him on the ground. He was anxious, did not want to go into the police car, and because the cops are told they have to bring people in, the escalation began. Can you disprove that Floyd was not already in fear of bodily harm or death way before he was manhandled down into the pavement?
When you are dealing with a person who is already scared, making them more scared does not make them more cooperative. I do not believe that the cops were trying to scare him into compliance. My guess is they thought restraining him on the ground would eventually tire him out and they could then put him in the cop car. However, by his actions Chauvin wasn't very concerned about making sure the guy was healthy once he stopped restraining him. But proving that was his intention, that he didn't even care if he died, that will be hard.
Leaving the knee in place could also show the cop wasn't listening to Floyd at all. Plus you now have three other cops who have a vested interest in proving it wasn't Murder 2. George Zimmerman walked off with no penalty for stalking a man and eventually shooting him because the charges were too high to be proven in court. Do we really want to do that again?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 4, 2020 9:09:43 GMT -5
I am not happy about the charges because I don't like planning for failure. I would like posters to reread part of the article in the OP as if Ellison is being extremely diplomatic. (Think Trudeau level diplomacy)
At a press conference announcing the charges in St. Paul on Wednesday, Ellison, who is Black, addressed the pain of Minneapolis residents reeling from Floyd’s death and the overall pattern of racist policing practices.
“George Floyd mattered. He was loved. His family was important. His life mattered,” Ellison said. “And we will seek justice for him and for you.”
“But what I do not believe is that one successful prosecution can rectify the hurt and loss that so many people feel,” he added. “The solution to that pain will be slow and difficult work of constructing justice and fairness in our society.”
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jelloshots4all
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Post by jelloshots4all on Jun 4, 2020 9:40:26 GMT -5
They could put trump on the jury if they want the cops to get off. He wants more force and doesn't like black people
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 4, 2020 10:47:07 GMT -5
Floyd was already in fear before the police got him on the ground. He was anxious, did not want to go into the police car, and because the cops are told they have to bring people in, the escalation began. Can you disprove that Floyd was not already in fear of bodily harm or death way before he was manhandled down into the pavement? When you are dealing with a person who is already scared, making them more scared does not make them more cooperative. I do not believe that the cops were trying to scare him into compliance. My guess is they thought restraining him on the ground would eventually tire him out and they could then put him in the cop car. However, by his actions Chauvin wasn't very concerned about making sure the guy was healthy once he stopped restraining him. But proving that was his intention, that he didn't even care if he died, that will be hard. Leaving the knee in place could also show the cop wasn't listening to Floyd at all. Plus you now have three other cops who have a vested interest in proving it wasn't Murder 2. George Zimmerman walked off with no penalty for stalking a man and eventually shooting him because the charges were too high to be proven in court. Do we really want to do that again? There is a two step process here. Step one is to prove felony assault. If they do that, Murder in the Second Degree is a given. I am thinking they will go for Assault in the Third Degree. I question the idea of needing to prove Floyd was in a state of zero fear prior to starting to have trouble breathing. For example, I am at a bar flirting with a woman. Her big bad biker boyfriend walks in. I feel fear something ugly is going to happen. That is on me. When he pulls out a heavy metal bar he is showing "intent to cause fear in another of immediate bodily harm or death;" and thus has committed felony assualt. I have not watched the video. I don't wish to voluntarily witness a murder. I don't know if there is evidence there or if they have evidence from previous situations which can show intent. On a different thread, I questioned this concept of "charges ... too high". Murder is committed in different circumstances. Each falls into a general category. The prosecution needs to make sure charges match circumstance criteria.
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Post by Opti on Jun 4, 2020 11:23:32 GMT -5
OK Bills, how does one flash a knee showing intent to cause fear when someone is already on the ground with their head turned away?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 4, 2020 11:51:32 GMT -5
OK Bills, how does one flash a knee showing intent to cause fear when someone is already on the ground with their head turned away? I think they have him for 2nd degree under this clause:
(2) causes the death of a human being without intent to effect the death of any person, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict bodily harm upon the victim, when the perpetrator is restrained under an order for protection and the victim is a person designated to receive protection under the order. As used in this clause, "order for protection" includes an order for protection issued under chapter 518B; a harassment restraining order issued under section 609.748; a court order setting conditions of pretrial release or conditions of a criminal sentence or juvenile court disposition; a restraining order issued in a marriage dissolution action; and any order issued by a court of another state or of the United States that is similar to any of these orders.
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Post by Opti on Jun 4, 2020 11:59:24 GMT -5
I hope you are right DJ. Local news just had a few examples of people being killed by knees in the back or similar.
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