djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 4, 2020 16:12:55 GMT -5
this article hit home for me. I have minor quibbles with some of the passages, but the core of it is spot on:
eand.co/the-far-right-takeover-of-america-is-almost-complete-67e9810d846b?gi=492fb78f5f7
When I look at America, here’s what I see. A country where the extreme, fanatical right wing takeover of its institutions — all of them — is almost complete. From laws to courts, representation to presidency, norms to rules, from press to public sphere — America is now controlled almost entirely and exclusively by the most fanatical kind of right wingers the rich world hasn’t seen for decades, probably since Nazi Germany. Yes, I mean that. Let me make my case — and you can judge for yourself whether my words carry any weight.
it takes maybe 15 mins to read it through, but I think it is worth the effort.
-dj
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 4, 2020 16:51:42 GMT -5
Read it. Don't think we are as far over the edge as is suggested but do believe this next election can take us there.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Feb 4, 2020 17:58:29 GMT -5
""Bang! Soon enough, it was game over. By 2019 — now — the following institutions had all fallen to the fanatical extreme right. The executive. The judiciary. The legislature. The press. The public sphere. What was left?
Not much, my friends, not much. And that is the point. The extreme right wing takeover of America is almost complete, finito, over and done with. There is very little standing in the way now. By my reckoning, one last barely functioning institution. An election. Will it matter — or will apathy and fear carry the day? You be the judge of that.
Written by umair haque
vampire. """
I looked up his bio, he is an interesting guy, authored several provocative articles. (I don't get why he signs his articles as 'vampire' ?) I'm a Repub capitalist - IMO socialism is a failed system- no initiative to work, to pride of ownership, the gov't owns the means of production, factories, land, etc. All people are equally rich/poor. Mostly poor, due to the inevitable inefficiency of Central Planning of govt. Actually, we had Central Planning here, during WW2 - most here don't remember it - we were allowed a ration of sugar, gasoline, tires, cloth, etc, No vehicles, no farm machinery, you made do with what you had. Fortunately it was for only 4 years.
A 'pure' side-by-side example was East-West Germany, for 28 years the communist side and the capitalist side were totally separated. The populations of both sides were genetically the same, had the same educational & cultural upbringing - but after 28 years , a full generation, the two populations had grown very different - quite a proving ground for sociologists. I read the article a second time, I could replace the term "extreme right wing takeover" with "extreme left wing takeover" and arrive at mostly the same conclusions. Ie, maybe the author selected a topic metric that isn't actually the 'key'?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 4, 2020 18:20:12 GMT -5
maybe. but let me state my opinion.
America has been obsessed with socialism/communism since WW2. we are the LEAST STATIST of all Western Democracies. if you don't know what that means, it means that our political DNA abhors anything resembling socialism. so, really, during that time, it should be the least concern among extremes.
therefore, I think this "socialism -vs- capitalism" is a false dichotomy. it is really something else. and I would challenge anyone that thinks I am wrong to think about "it" more deeply.
the real danger in the US has been autocratic rightism for a good long while now. and we are far closer now than we have ever been.
I am actually pretty worried about it. especially after what the Senate did. or didn't do, I guess.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 4, 2020 19:11:42 GMT -5
Good article and from the perspective of a non-American.
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oped
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Post by oped on Feb 4, 2020 19:30:04 GMT -5
Building a totalitarian state to ward off communism We are much further down the path than most realize. I've felt like Cassandra for 3 years now...
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Feb 4, 2020 19:36:31 GMT -5
""Bang! Soon enough, it was game over. By 2019 — now — the following institutions had all fallen to the fanatical extreme right. The executive. The judiciary. The legislature. The press. The public sphere. What was left?
Not much, my friends, not much. And that is the point. The extreme right wing takeover of America is almost complete, finito, over and done with. There is very little standing in the way now. By my reckoning, one last barely functioning institution. An election. Will it matter — or will apathy and fear carry the day? You be the judge of that.
Written by umair haque
vampire. """
I looked up his bio, he is an interesting guy, authored several provocative articles. (I don't get why he signs his articles as 'vampire' ?) I'm a Repub capitalist - IMO socialism is a failed system- no initiative to work, to pride of ownership, the gov't owns the means of production, factories, land, etc. All people are equally rich/poor. Mostly poor, due to the inevitable inefficiency of Central Planning of govt. Actually, we had Central Planning here, during WW2 - most here don't remember it - we were allowed a ration of sugar, gasoline, tires, cloth, etc, No vehicles, no farm machinery, you made do with what you had. Fortunately it was for only 4 years.
A 'pure' side-by-side example was East-West Germany, for 28 years the communist side and the capitalist side were totally separated. The populations of both sides were genetically the same, had the same educational & cultural upbringing - but after 28 years , a full generation, the two populations had grown very different - quite a proving ground for sociologists. I read the article a second time, I could replace the term "extreme right wing takeover" with "extreme left wing takeover" and arrive at mostly the same conclusions. Ie, maybe the author selected a topic metric that isn't actually the 'key'?
You are not seriously using the example of rationing during WWII as an example of the failures of either central planning or socialism, are you? Utterly silly. Those items and resources were not available in sufficient quantities, not because of any inherent inefficiency anywhere but because they were being diverted to the war effort, along with the disruption of trade. I am not an avid proponent of socialism as an economic theory either, but you do nobody any favors with such specious reasoning.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 4, 2020 19:38:14 GMT -5
Building a totalitarian state to ward of communism We are much further down the path than most realize. I've felt like Cassandra for 3 years now... this is precisely it.
I think that most nationalist movements AT FIRST thought they were doing a good thing for their country.
we need to get past that, and realize the bad we are doing.
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oped
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Post by oped on Feb 4, 2020 19:49:24 GMT -5
Liberty does not die in war... it falls to thunderous applause.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Feb 4, 2020 20:15:18 GMT -5
I'm concerned that Trump will either dispute the 2020 election if he fails to get re-elected, or attempt to over ride the two term presidential limit if he does win. He's made those kinds of comments many times, which he insists are jokes, but I don't think he's completely kidding - I think he's seeding the idea in his minions.
All he would need to do would be to declare himself the winner- and if the vote counts contradicted them, insist it's voter fraud. He's done the same kind of thing before. He still insists all the popular votes Hillary got that put her over him in the vote count were all 'fake.' I used to think Americans wouldn't accept such a naked grab for power, but I no longer think 50% of them would.
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Feb 4, 2020 21:26:15 GMT -5
I'm concerned that Trump will either dispute the 2020 election if he fails to get re-elected, or attempt to over ride the two term presidential limit if he does win. He's made those kinds of comments many times, which he insists are jokes, but I don't think he's completely kidding - I think he's seeding the idea in his minions. All he would need to do would be to declare himself the winner- and if the vote counts contradicted them, insist it's voter fraud. He's done the same kind of thing before. He still insists all the popular votes Hillary got that put her over him in the vote count were all 'fake.' I used to think Americans wouldn't accept such a naked grab for power, but I no longer think 50% of them would. Overriding the two term limit would mean repealing the 22nd amendment of the Constitution, which would require a proposal by 2/3 of either the House, Senate or a convention of states, and then would need to be ratified by 3/4 of all state legislatures. So in a nutshell, I think that's still pretty far outside the reach of Trump. (but I did look this up in the past due to the same concerns).
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oped
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Post by oped on Feb 4, 2020 21:28:24 GMT -5
Bob this was if he loses term 2... not after. If he ‘wins’ term 2 there is no after.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Feb 4, 2020 21:30:49 GMT -5
I am sure glad I am on the winning side of this, You must be really miserable that you feel this bad about your My Country, I'm doing great ,, which is really good!
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 4, 2020 21:41:06 GMT -5
Not even Bernie is suggesting actual socialism. Outside of healthcare (which his plan wont pass even a dem controlled congress) he isn't suggesting the surrender of any private ownership of anything. Nor is any suggesting that for profit companies should be shut down.
I don't think we need to fight the socialism boogeyman by handing over our entire government to corporations. That wont succeed either.
What happened to the middle? Where people could still get ahead and workers could have a decent life and the rich were only 10,000 times better off than the middle? That is gone.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 4, 2020 23:21:24 GMT -5
I'm concerned that Trump will either dispute the 2020 election if he fails to get re-elected, or attempt to over ride the two term presidential limit if he does win. He's made those kinds of comments many times, which he insists are jokes, but I don't think he's completely kidding - I think he's seeding the idea in his minions. All he would need to do would be to declare himself the winner- and if the vote counts contradicted them, insist it's voter fraud. He's done the same kind of thing before. He still insists all the popular votes Hillary got that put her over him in the vote count were all 'fake.' I used to think Americans wouldn't accept such a naked grab for power, but I no longer think 50% of them would. Overriding the two term limit would mean repealing the 22nd amendment of the Constitution, which would require a proposal by 2/3 of either the House, Senate or a convention of states, and then would need to be ratified by 3/4 of all state legislatures. So in a nutshell, I think that's still pretty far outside the reach of Trump. (but I did look this up in the past due to the same concerns). Honestly, after the way this impeachment trial has gone - which is something in the constitution - I'm having less faith. You'd need someone to stop him and refuse him up front and not argue about letting people vote on repealing the amendment and let him stay on. There's already been lines I didn't think the repubs would fully cross and they just walked right over it.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Feb 4, 2020 23:37:45 GMT -5
""" You are not seriously using the example of rationing during WWII as an example of the failures of either central planning or socialism, are you?"""
Of course not - but I'm pointing out we've done the 'central planning' thing for a short time and it was difficult - not something that you would like on a permanent basis.
Eg, we kept a team of horses because we had to conserve fuel. And we had to use steel wheels on the farm wagons because tires were unavailable. No cars were available from 1941 to 1946 - so lots of old cars were hay-wired together to keep them running. Again, no new tires. Back then, it was for the War Effort, people pulled together and got it done. But it wouldn't be a fun way-of-life.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Feb 4, 2020 23:55:56 GMT -5
""" You are not seriously using the example of rationing during WWII as an example of the failures of either central planning or socialism, are you?"""
Of course not - but I'm pointing out we've done the 'central planning' thing for a short time and it was difficult - not something that you would like on a permanent basis.
Eg, we kept a team of horses because we had to conserve fuel. And we had to use steel wheels on the farm wagons because tires were unavailable. No cars were available from 1941 to 1946 - so lots of old cars were hay-wired together to keep them running. Again, no new tires. Back then, it was for the War Effort, people pulled together and got it done. But it wouldn't be a fun way-of-life.
Hugely different, as already noted.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 5, 2020 2:09:43 GMT -5
our only flirtation with socialism was during WW2.
the way to avoid it is for businesses to pay a living wage, imo.
or to turn this into a fascist state, which is what they seem to have in mind.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Feb 5, 2020 9:03:56 GMT -5
The market will determine the wages, No jobs, low pay, lots of jobs, shortage of qualified people, high wages!! Raising MW only results in cost inflation, which means higher MW, which means more inflation. We only need to look at the fast food industry, what were you paying for a Big Mac 5-10, years ago?? What are you paying today? A bunch more!
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 5, 2020 9:23:48 GMT -5
our only flirtation with socialism was during WW2. the way to avoid it is for businesses to pay a living wage, imo. or to turn this into a fascist state, which is what they seem to have in mind. The happiest times for the middle class in our country is when unions had a higher membership. I don't like what unions turned into, but I hate what companies started doing to employees when the unions started disappearing. Collective bargaining- every job except the top 5% of earners in each company. Make mandatory mediation contracts as a requirement of employment illegal. Make it legal to group up to sue an employer. Make it illegal for unions and corporations and industry groups to lobby and donate to politicians. Make it illegal for unions to force a political stance on their members, or really take a political stance at all. Narrow what unions can bargain for. Wages, benefits and working conditions only. None of this people can't be fired bullshit. Corporations, we gave you a chance to do the right thing, and you didn't. Government isn't the answer, but the free market is cruel.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Feb 5, 2020 10:34:03 GMT -5
Good article and from the perspective of a non-American. And make no mistake by discarding his article as coming form someone who doesn't know: it is far easier to see the facts clearly when you don't feel the need to defend or attack anything. You are just observing.
However much I like this country, introspection is not a trait that is widely applied here.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Feb 5, 2020 11:18:38 GMT -5
I'm concerned that Trump will either dispute the 2020 election if he fails to get re-elected, or attempt to over ride the two term presidential limit if he does win. He's made those kinds of comments many times, which he insists are jokes, but I don't think he's completely kidding - I think he's seeding the idea in his minions. All he would need to do would be to declare himself the winner- and if the vote counts contradicted them, insist it's voter fraud. He's done the same kind of thing before. He still insists all the popular votes Hillary got that put her over him in the vote count were all 'fake.' I used to think Americans wouldn't accept such a naked grab for power, but I no longer think 50% of them would. Overriding the two term limit would mean repealing the 22nd amendment of the Constitution, which would require a proposal by 2/3 of either the House, Senate or a convention of states, and then would need to be ratified by 3/4 of all state legislatures. So in a nutshell, I think that's still pretty far outside the reach of Trump. (but I did look this up in the past due to the same concerns). Considering that trump carried 60% of the states in 2016 it may not be as inconceivable as you think in a country that, incorrectly, prides itself on representative government → there is no one person, one vote!
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Feb 5, 2020 11:24:45 GMT -5
I would consider myself a middle classer whose political views are probably moderate. Just like the right in 2009, the left is getting a little dramatic here.
I am only going off what I see, it seems like the middle class is better off nowadays than when I grew up. I literally can't think of a single person that I knew growing up that I would say has it worse off than their parents. I'm 42, so maybe it's worse for people just getting out of school, who knows.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Feb 5, 2020 11:39:10 GMT -5
I would consider myself a middle classer whose political views are probably moderate. Just like the right in 2009, the left is getting a little dramatic here. I am only going off what I see, it seems like the middle class is better off nowadays than when I grew up. I literally can't think of a single person that I knew growing up that I would say has it worse off than their parents. I'm 42, so maybe it's worse for people just getting out of school, who knows. Same and agreed. Saying America is teetering on the brink to me is the same fear mongering we heard when Trump got elected - the market is going to crash, he's going to get us into more wars and so on. Same thing happens when a dem gets elected and reps say the market will crash, they're coming the second amendment and so on. The dems have made it clear since day one they wanted him out of office but instead of putting forth viable candidates or a platform some people on the fence could support the party seems fractured. I see articles saying we may not survive another four years of Trump and it reminds me of part of the reason he got elected in the first place.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 5, 2020 11:39:36 GMT -5
I would consider myself a middle classer whose political views are probably moderate. Just like the right in 2009, the left is getting a little dramatic here. I am only going off what I see, it seems like the middle class is better off nowadays than when I grew up. I literally can't think of a single person that I knew growing up that I would say has it worse off than their parents. I'm 42, so maybe it's worse for people just getting out of school, who knows. I think your observation might be skewed a bit. I can't say for sure. But consider: who did you know growing up that you currently know their financial situation? Are they a good representation of the population as a whole?
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Feb 5, 2020 11:39:53 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with Ryan. I had a middle class upbringing, and I definitely see signs that things are worse. Just one example, among my personal group of friends: after graduating from college, our children are living with their mom & dad for a lot longer than my generation. For my generation, we were out of the house within a year of getting our degrees, and our student loans weren't soul sucking amounts. Now, the kids stay home for YEARS, because they can't afford their payments, plus the high cost of rent, medical insurance, etc. A degree just doesn't give a salary big enough to cover all of the costs of living independently, plus paying back that student loan.
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oped
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Post by oped on Feb 5, 2020 11:48:58 GMT -5
When I talk about the brink I'm not talking about the market for god's sake.. i'm talking about the fundamental tenets of the republic. All the things you are discussing as 'quality of life' are surface indicators, tenuous and worth nothing without their foundation... when that is gone, the rest will crumble in an instant.
Rome failed more than a decade before it fell.
Holy fuck... so many didn't even see financial crisis of 2008 coming till it did. No one is paying attention to the climate crisis with any seriousness. This great experiment is about to end... there is not any objective reality any more... its all lies and propaganda and it will taste like sand to those who are not prepared...
Have I mentioned Cassandra?
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 5, 2020 12:45:23 GMT -5
Does being "middle class" mean getting money regularly from one's parents in order to maintain or exceed the standard of living one grew accustom to in childhood/teen/College years?
Over the last 10 years I witnessed alot of 20 somethings getting financial help from their parents even when the "kid" had a job. The now 30 somethings are still getting money/help from their parents - even though the 'kid' now has as settled stable job with reasonable income.
I don't remember one's Adult lifestyle being parent financed as an indication of being "middle class" for the Adult.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Feb 5, 2020 12:49:59 GMT -5
I would consider myself a middle classer whose political views are probably moderate. Just like the right in 2009, the left is getting a little dramatic here. I am only going off what I see, it seems like the middle class is better off nowadays than when I grew up. I literally can't think of a single person that I knew growing up that I would say has it worse off than their parents. I'm 42, so maybe it's worse for people just getting out of school, who knows. I think your observation might be skewed a bit. I can't say for sure. But consider: who did you know growing up that you currently know their financial situation? Are they a good representation of the population as a whole? I don't know their financial situation, but I also didn't know the financial situation of my parents and their peers growing up. I think there is a tendency for people to observe someone driving a nice car and taking their kids to disney and say "Well, they are probably in debt up to their eyeballs". Maybe, or they could be just doing pretty well and can afford a nice car.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Feb 5, 2020 13:00:24 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with Ryan . I had a middle class upbringing, and I definitely see signs that things are worse. Just one example, among my personal group of friends: after graduating from college, our children are living with their mom & dad for a lot longer than my generation. For my generation, we were out of the house within a year of getting our degrees, and our student loans weren't soul sucking amounts. Now, the kids stay home for YEARS, because they can't afford their payments, plus the high cost of rent, medical insurance, etc. A degree just doesn't give a salary big enough to cover all of the costs of living independently, plus paying back that student loan. If the middle class is burdened with debt because of student loans, I'd say you are better off addressing all of the root causes first instead of just saying they need more money. Not to sound too cliche, but they probably showed no restraint when choosing a college. They also probably have more luxuries than someone that was in the same situation 25 years ago. If the entire college system were dismantled and re-started from scratch, college would look nothing like it does now and cost nowhere near as much. You can take an intro to finance class for $19.99 on Udemy that includes 75 lectures. Microeconomics is $15.99 and includes 75 lectures. Yet people are paying $1500-$2000 minimum for a standard college course PLUS paying some ridiculous amount of money for a textbook. These are the type of areas where gov't needs to step in.
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