Pre-Exposure Rabies Vaccine

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

Anyone gotten the series? I know it doesn't immunize one against rabies so I'm more interested in any side effects. Anyone know if it is safe to get if one is recovering from a recent bout of Mono AND Anaplasmosis or do you think the viral load would be too much for one's immune system? (getting mixed opinions from a couple of doctors)

[NastyWoman]

I don't understand the question: if it does not immunize why would you get a pre-exposure vaccine?

After (potential) exposure → yes, I understand that. DS got nipped by a stray dog in Bangkok and his skin got broken. Rabies was (is?) rampant in Thailand so he got a series of 6 shots. I wasn't taking any chances. But before (potential) exposure

[wvugurl26]

I would think it would be a bad idea. Normally they want you to be healthy for immunizations. I found something from Maryland's health board that says to wait. The CDC says a minor illness is okay but if you had a moderate to severe one to wait.

I would wait but I'm not a physician. Additionally, the CDC fact sheet says nervous system disorders such as Guillain Barre syndrome have been reported after the vaccine. With your son having Epstein Barr causing the mono I would put it off as long as possible.

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

May 3, 2018 13:37:15 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

I don't understand the question: if it does not immunize why would you get a pre-exposure vaccine?

After (potential) exposure → yes, I understan that. DS got nipped by a stray dog in Bangkok and his skin got broken. Rabies was (is?) rampant in Thailand so he got a series of 6 shots. I wasn't taking any chances. But before (potential) exposure

The primary benefit is that it gives you more time to get the actual vaccine which is important when you are working deep in the wilderness hours from paved roads and even further from medical care.

[wvugurl26]

May 3, 2018 13:37:15 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

I don't understand the question: if it does not immunize why would you get a pre-exposure vaccine?

After (potential) exposure → yes, I understan that. DS got nipped by a stray dog in Bangkok and his skin got broken. Rabies was (is?) rampant in Thailand so he got a series of 6 shots. I wasn't taking any chances. But before (potential) exposure

It cuts down on the amount of treatment needed after exposure.

And what GRG said.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

This would be my concern.....

Many viral diseases depress the immune system, not allowing them to function normally.  It is why there are so many secondary bacterial infections after viral diseases such as the flu, measles, etc.  I’m not sure about mono, but I think secondary infection can be an issue here too.

I suspect the vaccine would not be effective.  If he does get the vaccine, I’d ask if there would be any way of monitoring for an anti rabies antibody titer during the series.  My best guess is that it wouldn’t take until his immune system is properly functioning....which makes th3 vaccine series useless.

ETA:  One way you might want to check him out is to give a revaccination of chicken pox or measles vaccine and check for a titer to the antibody in a week or so.  This will tell whether he can elicit an anamnestic antibody response, not a primary...but it could give an indication as to how he’ll respond to the rabies vaccine.

[movingforward]

I have been vaccinated for rabies (after the fact), not pre-exposure. I was scared of the side effects but ended up having none. My brother, due to his work, had them pre-exposure. No side effects either. I would be leery about getting the vaccination right after having mono though.

[Deleted]

May 3, 2018 13:43:44 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

May 3, 2018 13:37:15 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

I don't understand the question: if it does not immunize why would you get a pre-exposure vaccine?

After (potential) exposure → yes, I understan that. DS got nipped by a stray dog in Bangkok and his skin got broken. Rabies was (is?) rampant in Thailand so he got a series of 6 shots. I wasn't taking any chances. But before (potential) exposure

The primary benefit is that it gives you more time to get the actual vaccine which is important when you are working deep in the wilderness hours from paved roads and even further from medical care.

Is he going to be doing something where he's actually at risk of getting bit by something?  I mean, just being out in the wilderness wouldn't worry me, but if he's trapping and tagging or something...

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

May 3, 2018 13:57:49 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

May 3, 2018 13:43:44 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

The primary benefit is that it gives you more time to get the actual vaccine which is important when you are working deep in the wilderness hours from paved roads and even further from medical care.

Is he going to be doing something where he's actually at risk of getting bit by something?  I mean, just being out in the wilderness wouldn't worry me, but if he's trapping and tagging or something...

He will be anesthetizing, trapping, tagging, weighing, and removing a pre-molar from Martens -- a cranky type of weasel. So, absolutely coming in contact with Marten saliva. 😱

He doesn't like my suggestions of Accounting as a career...😜

[Deleted]

May 3, 2018 15:36:14 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

May 3, 2018 13:57:49 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Is he going to be doing something where he's actually at risk of getting bit by something?  I mean, just being out in the wilderness wouldn't worry me, but if he's trapping and tagging or something...

He will be anesthetizing, trapping, tagging, weighing, and removing a pre-molar from Martens -- a cranky type of weasel. So, absolutely coming in contact with Marten saliva. 😱

He doesn't like my suggestions of Accounting as a career...😜

Yeah, that's begging to get bit! 

[ken a.k.a OMK]

Accounting is boring.   

[Deleted]

May 3, 2018 15:36:14 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

May 3, 2018 13:57:49 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Is he going to be doing something where he's actually at risk of getting bit by something?  I mean, just being out in the wilderness wouldn't worry me, but if he's trapping and tagging or something...

He will be anesthetizing, trapping, tagging, weighing, and removing a pre-molar from Martens -- a cranky type of weasel. So, absolutely coming in contact with Marten saliva. 😱

He doesn't like my suggestions of Accounting as a career...😜

That man doesn't need vaccinations-he needs body armor.  Out of curiously, how do you secure a marten long enough in one position to get a needle in for anesthesia?  If  you think the marten is cranky before the procedure, just think about what he'll feel like when he wakes up after a needle stick, minus a tooth, and wearing a tag.  I would not want to be the next human he encounters!

[Jaguar]

May 3, 2018 15:41:31 GMT -5 @donethat said:

May 3, 2018 15:36:14 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

He will be anesthetizing, trapping, tagging, weighing, and removing a pre-molar from Martens -- a cranky type of weasel. So, absolutely coming in contact with Marten saliva. 😱

He doesn't like my suggestions of Accounting as a career...😜

That man doesn't need vaccinations-he needs body armor.  Out of curiously, how do you secure a marten long enough in one position to get a needle in for anesthesia?  If  you think the marten is cranky before the procedure, just think about what he'll feel like when he wakes up after a needle stick, minus a tooth, and wearing a tag.  I would not want to be the next human he encounters!

^^^ YEAH THAT ^^^

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

May 3, 2018 15:41:31 GMT -5 @donethat said:

May 3, 2018 15:36:14 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

He will be anesthetizing, trapping, tagging, weighing, and removing a pre-molar from Martens -- a cranky type of weasel. So, absolutely coming in contact with Marten saliva. 😱

He doesn't like my suggestions of Accounting as a career...😜

That man doesn't need vaccinations-he needs body armor.  Out of curiously, how do you secure a marten long enough in one position to get a needle in for anesthesia?  If  you think the marten is cranky before the procedure, just think about what he'll feel like when he wakes up after a needle stick, minus a tooth, and wearing a tag.  I would not want to be the next human he encounters!

Blow dart?

[Anne_in_VA]

  That’s what I was thinking.

[Deleted]

May 3, 2018 16:01:36 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

May 3, 2018 15:41:31 GMT -5 @donethat said:

That man doesn't need vaccinations-he needs body armor.  Out of curiously, how do you secure a marten long enough in one position to get a needle in for anesthesia?  If  you think the marten is cranky before the procedure, just think about what he'll feel like when he wakes up after a needle stick, minus a tooth, and wearing a tag.  I would not want to be the next human he encounters!

Blow dart?

Maybe, but marten are relatively small so could be a narrow chute-type trap so once in to grab the bait there's no room to turn around.  They have been a fur source forever and an important part of the food chain in their world.  I assume the pre-molar extraction is for DNA research to determine family groupings, inbreeding, range, etc.  This could definitely tie into research on if/how changing weather patterns affect them and more.

[NastyWoman]

May 3, 2018 16:01:36 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

May 3, 2018 15:41:31 GMT -5 @donethat said:

That man doesn't need vaccinations-he needs body armor.  Out of curiously, how do you secure a marten long enough in one position to get a needle in for anesthesia?  If  you think the marten is cranky before the procedure, just think about what he'll feel like when he wakes up after a needle stick, minus a tooth, and wearing a tag.  I would not want to be the next human he encounters!

Blow dart?

I was thinking get close → slam a pail over him→ pipe in laughing gas and "voila" peaceful marten ready to be treated. Blow dart would work too though...

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

In reality, I suspect they throw them into some sort of gas chamber to knock them down, using chloroform or ether.  It doesn’t last long, but long enough to inject a longer term anesthesia agent, like ketamine, to give them more time.  

I’ve used the chutes, and they really are difficult for small animals.  I hated the one we had for rabbits, it traumatized them more and they fought through the anesthesia.  We used to use a squeeze cage for the monkeys to inject them without getting injured, and then go into the cage once they were out.  

I doubt they’d use blow darts, I’ve been watching Mountain Vet show too much.

[NastyWoman]

May 3, 2018 18:20:54 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

In reality, I suspect they throw them into some sort of gas chamber to knock them down, using chloroform or ether.  It doesn’t last long, but long enough to inject a longer term anesthesia agent, like ketamine, to give them more time.  

I’ve used the chutes, and they really are difficult for small animals.  I hated the one we had for rabbits, it traumatized them more and they fought through the anesthesia.  We used to use a squeeze cage for the monkeys to inject them without getting injured, and then go into the cage once they were out.  

I doubt they’d use blow darts, I’ve been watching Mountain Vet show too much.

Don't go shooting down my rather vivid fantasy life. These are wild animals and I was envisioning GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl's kid running around like Tarzan (from the 50s series) with a blow pipe ahooo-ahooo-ahooo-ahooo

[raeoflyte]

I'd like dh to get it, but that hasn't happened yet and isn't likely to any time soon.  

They cost a lot of money so I'd err on the side of waiting if there's a good chance it wouldn't be effective. 

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

😂😂😂😂😂. You guys are hilarious. I LOVE this board.

Martens live high up in trees. They are speedy, reclusive, little weasels. So difficult to find that YDS' team won't have to eyeball them to track them -- just use a couple of GPS coordinates to locate them. I'll ask YDS how they plan to catch and anesthetize them. I don't think blow darts are involved but...MAYBE?? 😆

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

And, yes, the vaccine IS expensive: $1,400 for the 3 shot series, so not a financial or medical decision we want to make lightly.

I am aware of the connection between Epstein-Barr Virus and Guillain-Barré Syndrome as it relates to the flu vaccine, so I was wondering if any vaccine has the ability to trigger GBS after Mono (and, of course, the Pre-Exposure Rabies Vaccine in particular). I have also heard of a new presentation of Epstein-Barr that is chronic in nature causing Mono-like flare-ups when someone who has seemingly recovered from Mono gets stressed or sick with another virus. As you all know, my kids do all of their medical issues in complicated ways, so with our crappy luck, YDS will have some rare side effect from the vaccine if he gets it now. 😏

But, then again, RABIES, you know? Ugh. Learn from my mistakes. Don't teach your kids about nature and ecology and the environment. Teach them safe things like Engineering and other indoor activities. 😆

[Deleted]

I'm still curious about removing the tooth - DNA, determining age, what?  

And engineers and other "indoor" professions have to deal with rabid clients who are often worse than martens.

[wvugurl26]

The CDC said GBS has been seen after administration of the pre exposure vaccine. They can't make a definitive statement though. That would make me wait in your son's case.

[weltschmerz]

May 3, 2018 17:42:09 GMT -5 @donethat said:

May 3, 2018 16:01:36 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Blow dart?

Maybe, but marten are relatively small so could be a narrow chute-type trap so once in to grab the bait there's no room to turn around.  They have been a fur source forever and an important part of the food chain in their world.  I assume the pre-molar extraction is for DNA research to determine family groupings, inbreeding, range, etc.  This could definitely tie into research on if/how changing weather patterns affect them and more.

Can they not do that through scat? That's also a rich source of DNA.
Is it really necessary to traumatize the animal?

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

May 4, 2018 22:59:38 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

May 3, 2018 17:42:09 GMT -5 @donethat said:

Maybe, but marten are relatively small so could be a narrow chute-type trap so once in to grab the bait there's no room to turn around.  They have been a fur source forever and an important part of the food chain in their world.  I assume the pre-molar extraction is for DNA research to determine family groupings, inbreeding, range, etc.  This could definitely tie into research on if/how changing weather patterns affect them and more.

Can they not do that through scat? That's also a rich source of DNA.
Is it really necessary to traumatize the animal?

So the goal of the study is to determine the health and viability of the marten population (remember, they live high in trees) in connection with current U.S. timber-cutting practices.  In other words, how does clear cutting impact the marten?  Yes, the anesthetizing is not ideal, but necessary in order to make recommendations for the long term success of the Martens.  There is no other way that is safe -- for researcher and marten -- to take all of the measurements and samples necessary without anesthetization.  Martens are highly susceptible to rabies.  If the research and field teams didn't take such precautions, we would wipe out the wildlife biology graduate student population in mere months.  

YDS worked on a related study of spruce grouse last summer (they nest in the under brush so clear cutting removes their habitat as well).  Spruce grouse are easy to capture and hold in one's hands (or in a cloth bag) in order to take the measurements and samples.  They don't bite.  They don't carry rabies.  Not so for martens.

[weltschmerz]

May 5, 2018 16:41:44 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

May 4, 2018 22:59:38 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Can they not do that through scat? That's also a rich source of DNA.
Is it really necessary to traumatize the animal?

So the goal of the study is to determine the health and viability of the marten population (remember, they live high in trees) in connection with current U.S. timber-cutting practices.  In other words, how does clear cutting impact the marten?  Yes, the anesthetizing is not ideal, but necessary in order to make recommendations for the long term success of the Martens.  There is no other way that is safe -- for researcher and marten -- to take all of the measurements and samples necessary without anesthetization.  Martens are highly susceptible to rabies.  If the research and field teams didn't take such precautions, we would wipe out the wildlife biology graduate student population in mere months.  

YDS worked on a related study of spruce grouse last summer (they nest in the under brush so clear cutting removes their habitat as well).  Spruce grouse are easy to capture and hold in one's hands (or in a cloth bag) in order to take the measurements and samples.  They don't bite.  They don't carry rabies.  Not so for martens.

Ummm...not well?

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

May 5, 2018 16:59:01 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

May 5, 2018 16:41:44 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

So the goal of the study is to determine the health and viability of the marten population (remember, they live high in trees) in connection with current U.S. timber-cutting practices.  In other words, how does clear cutting impact the marten?  Yes, the anesthetizing is not ideal, but necessary in order to make recommendations for the long term success of the Martens.  There is no other way that is safe -- for researcher and marten -- to take all of the measurements and samples necessary without anesthetization.  Martens are highly susceptible to rabies.  If the research and field teams didn't take such precautions, we would wipe out the wildlife biology graduate student population in mere months.  

YDS worked on a related study of spruce grouse last summer (they nest in the under brush so clear cutting removes their habitat as well).  Spruce grouse are easy to capture and hold in one's hands (or in a cloth bag) in order to take the measurements and samples.  They don't bite.  They don't carry rabies.  Not so for martens.

Ummm...not well?

Actually — the spruce grouse study, which is years long — says they are doing just fine.  Of course, it remains to be seen for the martens, but if clear cutting is negatively impacting them, then wildlife ecologists need the data to push for changes in forestry practices.  

[justme]

May 3, 2018 22:19:08 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

And, yes, the vaccine IS expensive: $1,400 for the 3 shot series, so not a financial or medical decision we want to make lightly.

I am aware of the connection between Epstein-Barr Virus and Guillain-Barré Syndrome as it relates to the flu vaccine, so I was wondering if any vaccine has the ability to trigger GBS after Mono (and, of course, the Pre-Exposure Rabies Vaccine in particular). I have also heard of a new presentation of Epstein-Barr that is chronic in nature causing Mono-like flare-ups when someone who has seemingly recovered from Mono gets stressed or sick with another virus. As you all know, my kids do all of their medical issues in complicated ways, so with our crappy luck, YDS will have some rare side effect from the vaccine if he gets it now. 😏

But, then again, RABIES, you know? Ugh. Learn from my mistakes. Don't teach your kids about nature and ecology and the environment. Teach them safe things like Engineering and other indoor activities. 😆

I've technically had mono 2 or 3 times. I forget. Obviously it never goes out of your system, but 2ish years after my first go round the blood test spiked when I got sick, though it wasn't normal mono sick (I'd be sick for 3-4 days, good for 3-4, then repeat.). I have autoimmune stuff so that's what the chalked it up to - one of em was diagnosed during this mayhem so it likely killed me enough that mono could come party.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Many moons ago, I was working with a cell line that was infected with EBV.  The only ones in the lab allowed to with with the cell line were those who had previously been infected with EBV and had a positive EBV antibody titer.  

So all 6 of us in the lab were tested, and all 6 of us wound up working with the cells, as we all were carriers/positive.  Funny thing though...none of us ever remembered getting mono.

Things have changed a lot since the early 1990s with regards to bio safety levels.