dezii
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Post by dezii on Feb 19, 2018 19:32:10 GMT -5
in schools....feels teachers and other school employees should be prepared and able to be armed to protect themselves and mostly the children they are in charge of...any thoughts..? Personally I have been in favor of that for a long time...Regarding the point brought up that students would be upset, be unable tp handle this idea...armed teachers and others on campus..they and we have been surrounded by law enforcement folks all our lives..all armed...and today...many of their friends families..own families may be armed too... There are teachers and school employees who may have legal carry licenses but must leave these weapons locked in their cars when they enter the school campus...Why not be allowed to keep on their person or close proximity while working..locked in desk, briefcase, handbag....even discreetly carried... They should be trained for the job on hand.....the ammunition may have to be tailored for the locations..walls, partitions...possible not even to be used offensively..[going after the culprit...more defense only...let those trained go after the perp...they seems they arrive quickly] but I think the Sherriff has the right idea...as a parent, I would have no problem with his feeling...just another line of defense for my kids.. ---------------------------------- www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article200905419.html#fmp
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 19, 2018 20:51:46 GMT -5
I see an important issue is whether teachers are allowed to self select as armed or does the school administration have veto power? I don't see how they could assign someone who wasn't willing, but as I think back to the last teaching staff I was on, I am not sure I would trust all the ones who would self select.
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dezii
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Post by dezii on Feb 20, 2018 0:51:28 GMT -5
I see an important issue is whether teachers are allowed to self select as armed or does the school administration have veto power? I don't see how they could assign someone who wasn't willing, but as I think back to the last teaching staff I was on, I am not sure I would trust all the ones who would self select. It would have to be volunteer only...possible a physical and mental test . As I said...those who volunteer...go through the education and all...for the most part would be there as a line of defense...not to go on the offense to find the shooter ...that being left to the professionals...possible those who are chosen are issued a over bib recognizing they are the good guys.. [they would be shown to be armed so have to be recognized, bib would be locked in drawer or briefcase..these little things would be have to worked out..even a plan in the school just with those who are armed..under direction of police..swat team leaders] "I am not sure I would trust all the ones who would self select. "
?..Why? For what reason?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 1:54:22 GMT -5
Armed teachers is a much better deterrent than a sign that says "No guns allowed - This is a gun free zone" (people that are going to break the "murder is illegal, don't do it!" law tend to ignore pesky signs).
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 20, 2018 8:56:47 GMT -5
... "I am not sure I would trust all the ones who would self select. "
?..Why? For what reason?I taught individuals with behavior disorders in a general education seeing. I developed deescalation skills that I used with kids. At times I also had to use them with teachers and administrators whose strong egos were challenged.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Feb 20, 2018 9:05:35 GMT -5
Mixed feeling about this since I was probably the kind of student that a teacher would have wanted to just shoot.
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Blonde Granny
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Post by Blonde Granny on Feb 20, 2018 9:07:47 GMT -5
Were the doors locked in the Parkland high school? If not, we should start there.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 20, 2018 9:11:10 GMT -5
Classroom doors locked and if time permits, desks and other furniture piled up against the doors.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 20, 2018 9:11:24 GMT -5
... It would have to be volunteer only...possible a physical and mental test . As I said...those who volunteer...go through the education and all... ... And as the sheriff said: All that’s required to apply for the eight-hour class, Jones said, is proof of employment and a valid ID.
Read more here: www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article200905419.html#fmp#storylink=cpy Fully vetted, trained, and drilled is one thing. 8 hours and you can arm yourself at school is another.
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Blonde Granny
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Post by Blonde Granny on Feb 20, 2018 10:10:20 GMT -5
Should have clarified my question....were the doors to the outside locked from the inside so no intruder could make his way inside? And yes, locking class room doors would be a good idea also. Let's just not automatically blame the guns and the problem.
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dezii
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Post by dezii on Feb 20, 2018 10:56:47 GMT -5
Should have clarified my question....were the doors to the outside locked from the inside so no intruder could make his way inside? And yes, locking class room doors would be a good idea also. Let's just not automatically blame the guns and the problem. Perp made it inside..[as former student knew the ins and outs..possible even where the one armed guard in the building was at that time]...had time to take weapon out of case, charge it, possible pull fire alarm...[they aren't sure how that went off yet] and in about six minutes fired 160 or so rounds...killing 14, wounding 14/16...able to drop weapon , mingle with escaping students and walk out of there... Yup...lots of problem...definitely a major one IMHO is the ease of his being able to purchase this weapon and the characteristics of it...lots of blame from me toward this gun...
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Post by Blonde Granny on Feb 20, 2018 12:21:11 GMT -5
and did he make it inside because the entrance doors were not locked? Or did he know the doors were never locked diring school hours?
inquiring people want to lnow.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 12:23:38 GMT -5
I hear stories all the time that teachers have to buy their own supplies because enough aren’t supplied, but we are going to pay for them to have glocks?
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ken a.k.a OMK
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Feb 20, 2018 12:27:36 GMT -5
and did he make it inside because the entrance doors were not locked? Or did he know the doors were never locked diring school hours? inquiring people want to lnow. I believe it was close to end of school and the doors (they had many) were being unlocked. He entered as students were leaving and set off the school alarm which opened all doors to all buildings. He definitely knew the routine. Before this they were looking into a better fire alarm/door lock system.
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Blonde Granny
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Post by Blonde Granny on Feb 20, 2018 12:44:09 GMT -5
Thank Ken....
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 20, 2018 12:59:55 GMT -5
Should have clarified my question....were the doors to the outside locked from the inside so no intruder could make his way inside? And yes, locking class room doors would be a good idea also. Let's just not automatically blame the guns and the problem. Perp made it inside..[as former student knew the ins and outs..possible even where the one armed guard in the building was at that time]...had time to take weapon out of case, charge it, possible pull fire alarm...[they aren't sure how that went off yet] and in about six minutes fired 160 or so rounds...killing 14, wounding 14/16...able to drop weapon , mingle with escaping students and walk out of there... Yup...lots of problem...definitely a major one IMHO is the ease of his being able to purchase this weapon and the characteristics of it...lots of blame from me toward this gun... Posting this (I Posted this elsewhere several days ago) so everyone has an understanding of what the high school campus looks like. Minimally, all the brown roofs are various buildings which comprise the school. Outside of the people shot and killed outdoors, it is my understanding the students and teachers killed or wounded inside the school were in one building only. The armed guard could have been on the opposite side of the complex of buildings from where the shootings occurred and not even known what was happening. I believe the junior high/middle school where some students sought shelter is the building in the upper left hand corner.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 20, 2018 13:00:43 GMT -5
From a practical standpoint, I am a little leery of having teachers carry.
We can't force them all to carry. That is as un-American as taking away every gun and bullets.
Teenagers are scientifically proven to have impulsive thoughts, and more likely to act on them. Tens of millions of kids who do not have access to guns will now be with guns all day, every day. Will this have unintended consequences? Teachers come in all shapes and sizes. And so do high school students. If a large student approached a small teacher, shooting that kid shouldn't be their first thought, but if that kid is going to grab the gun, what other options are there?
I guess I just don't see that a few teachers armed will solve anything, and possibly create a whole new set of problems. If a kid is showing the school with hundreds of bullets, a teacher would have to be in a very specific place to be able to take that kid out with a small handgun. And, there would still be deaths, and it would still be super traumatic.
But sure - allow those that wish to be armed to be trained and let's see if it would help.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 13:13:11 GMT -5
in schools....feels teachers and other school employees should be prepared and able to be armed to protect themselves and mostly the children they are in charge of...any thoughts..? Personally I have been in favor of that for a long time...Regarding the point brought up that students would be upset, be unable tp handle this idea...armed teachers and others on campus..they and we have been surrounded by law enforcement folks all our lives..all armed...and today...many of their friends families..own families may be armed too... There are teachers and school employees who may have legal carry licenses but must leave these weapons locked in their cars when they enter the school campus...Why not be allowed to keep on their person or close proximity while working..locked in desk, briefcase, handbag....even discreetly carried... They should be trained for the job on hand.....the ammunition may have to be tailored for the locations..walls, partitions...possible not even to be used offensively..[going after the culprit...more defense only...let those trained go after the perp...they seems they arrive quickly] but I think the Sherriff has the right idea...as a parent, I would have no problem with his feeling...just another line of defense for my kids.. ---------------------------------- www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article200905419.html#fmpIt would seem that the idea of gun free zones is not working and might be more of an attractant. I am not against concealed carry in schools.
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dezii
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Post by dezii on Feb 20, 2018 13:27:32 GMT -5
I hear stories all the time that teachers have to buy their own supplies because enough aren’t supplied, but we are going to pay for them to have glocks? Just like many average Americans...I believe some teachers, educators, custodial staff own hand guns...some probably have carry licenses... No one is suggesting that all these people HAVE to carry weapons or be trained...As far as the cost of the weapons...your correct...weapons are expensive yet many have multiple weapons and are not on the upper tier of the economic cucle.. In fact, the perp is a nineteen year old, working at a dollar store..earning what and supposedly had purchased 10 long guns..where did he get the $ to do that.. I have a former brother in law who is a big owner and shooter...many, many weapons...fires competively and is a administrator at many competitions in his State and region...but he is retired...was a principal in a environmental disposal and seeker of hazardess waste...and is a millionaire a few times over...can easily afford to support his hobby...then there are those like the perp....
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 20, 2018 13:28:42 GMT -5
... But sure - allow those that wish to be armed to be trained and let's see if it would help. I agree we should let this little experiment happen. Personally, I believe it is going to result in a few additional deaths but we need more dead bodies to build momentum for repeal of the 2nd Amendment.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 20, 2018 16:24:36 GMT -5
So teacher contracts will now include a hold harmless clause for when they kill a student if we allow them to have guns in the classroom? No jail time and can't be sued.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 20, 2018 16:54:33 GMT -5
So teacher contracts will now include a hold harmless clause for when they kill a student if we allow them to have guns in the classroom? No jail time and can't be sued. Can they be liable if they don't properly secure the gun during school hours and a student gets a hold of it to commit a shooting spree? No need to go home and raid the gun case if you know Mr Smith is packing and leaves it in his desk during lunch. I'm fine with the teachers packing if they are held liable should any student get a hold of their gun. They should not be exempt from any possible stupidity that can come from this idea.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 20, 2018 17:01:13 GMT -5
So teacher contracts will now include a hold harmless clause for when they kill a student if we allow them to have guns in the classroom? No jail time and can't be sued. Can they be liable if they don't properly secure the gun during school hours and a student gets a hold of it to commit a shooting spree? No need to go home and raid the gun case if you know Mr Smith is packing and leaves it in his desk during lunch. I'm fine with the teachers packing if they are held liable should any student get a hold of their gun. They should not be exempt from any possible stupidity that can come from this idea. Or hell, put Mrs Smith in a chokehold while you use her hand to unlock her gun safe. (Not that teachers have the spare hundreds to buy one of those fancy ones) Though I was initially thinking of the laughable accuracy in a live shooter situation a teacher with next to no training will have.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 20, 2018 17:04:47 GMT -5
Can they be liable if they don't properly secure the gun during school hours and a student gets a hold of it to commit a shooting spree? No need to go home and raid the gun case if you know Mr Smith is packing and leaves it in his desk during lunch. I'm fine with the teachers packing if they are held liable should any student get a hold of their gun. They should not be exempt from any possible stupidity that can come from this idea. Or hell, put Mrs Smith in a chokehold while you use her hand to unlock her gun safe. (Not that teachers have the spare hundreds to buy one of those fancy ones) Though I was initially thinking of the laughable accuracy in a live shooter situation a teacher with next to no training will have. It'll be just like the movies. Teachers will be surrounded by a haze of bullets that never touches them while they are in perfect control with perfect aim and manage to hit the shooter right between the eyes. They will never ever freeze or miss. I'm not doubting there people are that good. That just doesn't happen to be most people. It's like driving, everyone thinks they are a super awesome driver when in reality we suck big time. The more guns there are the more overconfident idiots there are that put more lives at risk trying to play hero.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 20, 2018 17:09:41 GMT -5
Or hell, put Mrs Smith in a chokehold while you use her hand to unlock her gun safe. (Not that teachers have the spare hundreds to buy one of those fancy ones) Though I was initially thinking of the laughable accuracy in a live shooter situation a teacher with next to no training will have. It'll be just like the movies. Teachers will be surrounded by a haze of bullets that never touches them while they are in perfect control with perfect aim and manage to hit the shooter right between the eyes. They will never ever freeze or miss. I'm not doubting there people are that good. That just doesn't happen to be most people. It's like driving, everyone thinks they are a super awesome driver when in reality we suck big time. The more guns there are the more overconfident idiots there are that put more lives at risk trying to play hero. Even people that good don't always win... Chris Kyle anyone?
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dezii
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Post by dezii on Feb 20, 2018 19:15:55 GMT -5
It'll be just like the movies. Teachers will be surrounded by a haze of bullets that never touches them while they are in perfect control with perfect aim and manage to hit the shooter right between the eyes. They will never ever freeze or miss. I'm not doubting there people are that good. That just doesn't happen to be most people. It's like driving, everyone thinks they are a super awesome driver when in reality we suck big time. The more guns there are the more overconfident idiots there are that put more lives at risk trying to play hero. Even people that good don't always win... Chris Kyle anyone? Again...can we have a real conversation instead of this emotional one that even students would be shaking their head in bewilderment.. No one is suggesting a teacher, a administrator, a custodian...ANY Adult HAS to take part in a program where they HAVE TO BEAR ARMS... We are not in the military where all members go through basic firearm training.. [ Do sailer recruits go through basic fire arm training] A school armament program would be strictly volunteering..and possible some schools might end up with zero personnel volunteering...and if so, so be it. There will have to be a program written...how many hours of training with weapons, discussion of the type of weapon carried, the ammunition to be authorized to be issued...important because of possible ricochets. Rounds passing through walls would have to be addressed.....training regarding the mission.. Is the mission strictly to act as a last resort..bad ones come to u..professionals..police, Swat...ones to root out the bad guys...It seems authorities show up pretty quickly...have weapons to match the perps, plus trained to act in teams plus usually are equipped with armor, vests.. Possible those interested need to apply for a carry permit, and physical, psychological testing might be warranted.. There should be continuous qualifying on ranges...Possiblev take a page from the Israelis...in their schools there are some who are armed...however "who" is not disclosed...and they are mostly concerned with possible terrorist threats...though as u think about it, anyone trying to do this in our schools are a terrorist in my mind. These are just a few of the things to be considered...there are a few school districts where armed personnel are already there..Texas is one State I know who has endorsed this..I believe in more rural areas were law enforcement is light and a ways away from the schools... It may come to pass...it may not...For me. if I still had children in public school , actually have two this year, next year one, grand kids...and would love to see such a program in their schools...I have no fear of fall out problems...feel better if there were armed adults present..
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 20, 2018 19:20:12 GMT -5
Even people that good don't always win... Chris Kyle anyone? Again...can we have a real conversation instead of this emotional one that even students would be shaking their head in bewilderment.. No one is suggesting a teacher, a administrator, a custodia...any Adult HAS to take part in a program where they HAVE TO BEAR ARMS... We are not in the military where all members go through basic firearm training..[ Do sailer recruits go through basic fire arm training] A school armament program would be strictly volunteering..and possible some schools might end up with zero personnel volunteering...and if so, so be it. There will have to be a program written...how many hours of training with weapons, discussion of the type of weapon carried, the ammunition to be authorized to be issued...important because of possible ricochets. Rounds passing through walls would have to be addressed......Possible those interested need to apply for a carry permit, and physical, psychological testing might be warranted.. There should be continuous qualifying on ranges...Possiblev take a page from the Israelis...in their schools there are some who are armed...however who is not disclosed...and they are mostly concerned with possible terrorist threats...though as u think about it, anyone trying to do this in our schools are a terrorist in my mind. These are just a few of the things to be considered...there are a few school districts where armed personnel are already there..Texas is one State I know who has endorsed this..I believe in more rural areas were law enforcement is light and a ways away from the schools... It may come to pass...it may not...For me. if I still had children in public school , actually have two this year, next year one, grand kids...and would love to see such a program in their schools...I have no fear of fall out problems... Sounds like you're the one having an emotional conversion.
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dezii
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Post by dezii on Feb 20, 2018 19:32:39 GMT -5
Again...can we have a real conversation instead of this emotional one that even students would be shaking their head in bewilderment.. No one is suggesting a teacher, a administrator, a custodia...any Adult HAS to take part in a program where they HAVE TO BEAR ARMS... We are not in the military where all members go through basic firearm training..[ Do sailer recruits go through basic fire arm training] A school armament program would be strictly volunteering..and possible some schools might end up with zero personnel volunteering...and if so, so be it. There will have to be a program written...how many hours of training with weapons, discussion of the type of weapon carried, the ammunition to be authorized to be issued...important because of possible ricochets. Rounds passing through walls would have to be addressed......Possible those interested need to apply for a carry permit, and physical, psychological testing might be warranted.. There should be continuous qualifying on ranges...Possiblev take a page from the Israelis...in their schools there are some who are armed...however who is not disclosed...and they are mostly concerned with possible terrorist threats...though as u think about it, anyone trying to do this in our schools are a terrorist in my mind. These are just a few of the things to be considered...there are a few school districts where armed personnel are already there..Texas is one State I know who has endorsed this..I believe in more rural areas were law enforcement is light and a ways away from the schools... It may come to pass...it may not...For me. if I still had children in public school , actually have two this year, next year one, grand kids...and would love to see such a program in their schools...I have no fear of fall out problems... Sounds like you're the one having an emotional conversion. Not at all...however if my writing up set u...sorry... I was just mentioning what a few things might have to be considered if this becomes more the norm then the exception...these are off the top of my head...am sure a lot more...and actually , I like the idea of any armed civiliens, even trained ones, hunkering down, bunkering up and wait for the cavalry to come rather then roaming corridors looking for the bad ones...they are there armed strictly to protect the kids and themselves in case the bad guys get to their area. Let those professionals do that...armed correctly, body armored, working as a team...
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 21, 2018 8:06:57 GMT -5
I fear accidental or single shooter with a teacher's gun more than a mass shooting.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 21, 2018 10:13:25 GMT -5
I fear accidental or single shooter with a teacher's gun more than a mass shooting. I see the former as the more likely result of teachers being armed than the stopping of the later.
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