thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 2, 2017 13:43:55 GMT -5
Poor, poor guy. He must have suffered so much. I'm sure the families understand why he chose to mow down their family member instead of just offing his own poor mistreated self. Thank Heavens nobody else has problems. Like the white guy who seemed normal 7 months before he shot and killed many more people?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 2, 2017 13:49:00 GMT -5
Funny. I didn't hear one person here say that he was probably mistreated somewhere along the lines and get all boo-hooey about how people might have been mean to him.
One final time, for those who keep trying to Trump Distraction Tweet this issue away....this guy didn't have to be here. We didn't have to let him live here. Those other guys....just as bad if not worse, but we didn't have a choice having them here. We had a choice with this guy.
You can compare him to our citizens until you are blue in the face. He. Didn't. Have. To. Be. Here. It's apples and oranges.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Nov 2, 2017 13:50:04 GMT -5
who's getting boo-hooey? I think there's been a pretty rational discussion about the possible ways someone would be locally radicalized.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 2, 2017 13:56:20 GMT -5
I'm not boo hooing. Just acknowledging that rampant racism can make people angry.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 2, 2017 14:01:35 GMT -5
What "rampant racism" might this guy have experienced? His "race" is white. Or am I looking at the wrong mug shot?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 2, 2017 14:28:29 GMT -5
I guess I meant nationalism. A lot of people hate foreigners. It is possible his accent made him a target.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 2, 2017 14:51:01 GMT -5
I like how the claim that there is no overt discrimination toward anyone goes hand in hand with foaming-at-the-mouth nationalism. Nope, no cognitive dissonance there.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Nov 2, 2017 15:08:04 GMT -5
cognitive dissonance is the perfect term for that, thank you!
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 2, 2017 15:09:32 GMT -5
I'm feeling SMRT today.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 2, 2017 15:28:00 GMT -5
Yeah.....cause if an accusation of racism falls flat....come up with some other horseshit and see if it sticks to the wall. I'd laugh but I'm not in the mood - dead people and all. Excuse this all you want, make up as many reasons as you want, but it's not going to matter. The fault lies with this man and this man only. And he didn't have to be here.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 2, 2017 15:39:59 GMT -5
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 2, 2017 15:45:16 GMT -5
Yeah.....cause if an accusation of racism falls flat....come up with some other horseshit and see if it sticks to the wall. I'd laugh but I'm not in the mood - dead people and all. Excuse this all you want, make up as many reasons as you want, but it's not going to matter. The fault lies with this man and this man only. And he didn't have to be here. None of the white dudes who have gone on murder sprees had to be here either. They were born here but there was nothing stopping them from running off to join Isis if they wanted to so badly as opposed to harming people here. It's interesting to me that when it is a person who wasn't born here there are cries of "kick everyone out! Ban immigrants! They only come here to kill us!" but when it's one of our own the answer is "Well he was a lone nut ball and we can't really control lone nut balls or figure out why they do things, mass shootings are just something we have to accept. After all more Americans die in car crashes than they do in mass murders". Never mind that way more people come over here that don't murder people than do. Apparently that logic only applies to homegrown terrorists. White male shooters do not represent all Americans but if one immigrant murders someone well then they ALL need to be held responsible!
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 2, 2017 16:05:40 GMT -5
Yeah.....cause if an accusation of racism falls flat....come up with some other horseshit and see if it sticks to the wall. I'd laugh but I'm not in the mood - dead people and all. Excuse this all you want, make up as many reasons as you want, but it's not going to matter. The fault lies with this man and this man only. And he didn't have to be here. hey, I'm just settin' 'em up and you guys are knockin' 'em down - don't be mad at me. See, this is the problem - anything other than foaming-at-the-mouth nationalism is being complicit in allowing terrorism. There is no grey anymore, no actual dialogue - it's THIS or THAT. And that is exactly what extremists want us to do.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 2, 2017 16:23:27 GMT -5
Yeah.....cause if an accusation of racism falls flat....come up with some other horseshit and see if it sticks to the wall. I'd laugh but I'm not in the mood - dead people and all. Excuse this all you want, make up as many reasons as you want, but it's not going to matter. The fault lies with this man and this man only. And he didn't have to be here. hey, I'm just settin' 'em up and you guys are knockin' 'em down - don't be mad at me. See, this is the problem - anything other than foaming-at-the-mouth nationalism is being complicit in allowing terrorism. There is no grey anymore, no actual dialogue - it's THIS or THAT. And that is exactly what extremists want us to do. Well...you'd be right if it weren't for the "foaming-at-the-mouth nationalism" and....the other stuff. But let's have some dialogue. Tell me about your "grey" area. If you are so inclined, tell me what you are willing to meet in the middle with. Let's pretend for a second that you are THIS and I am THAT and we don't want just THIS and THAT. So what are you willing to give in on? I can tell you what I'm willing to meet in the middle with. Can you tell me what you are willing to meet in the middle with? Cause while I agree we can't really have THIS or THAT, THIS isn't working and THAT isn't the answer.
I'm sorry that I don't have a lot of time right now, but if you decide to answer, I'll be back and hold up my end of the bargain. And personally? I don't give a flying "f" what extremists want or don't want so I won't be basing my answers on that. I would care about their motivation if it wasn't for the fact they are just evil and it doesn't matter what you or I do or think - they will still be just evil pieces of shit. If it mattered, I'd care. But since it doesn't, I don't.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 2, 2017 18:06:09 GMT -5
Funny. I didn't hear one person here say that he was probably mistreated somewhere along the lines and get all boo-hooey about how people might have been mean to him.
One final time, for those who keep trying to Trump Distraction Tweet this issue away....this guy didn't have to be here. We didn't have to let him live here. Those other guys....just as bad if not worse, but we didn't have a choice having them here. We had a choice with this guy.
You can compare him to our citizens until you are blue in the face. He. Didn't. Have. To. Be. Here. It's apples and oranges. A lot of people don't have to be here including the Las Vegas shooter. But let's ignore that for a minute. First, Donald Trump's travel ban does not even include the country this guy came from. Second, no one can predict with certainty that anyone won't lose it or push their anger outward and kill others. There are probably legal immigrants that are not Muslim who shoot and kill people. They probably don't make the news because they either aren't mass shootings, are only family, or perhaps because they aren't Muslim.
Sure you could restrict lots of people from coming here in hopes of stemming terrorism, but odds are it won't help much. A better thing might be for the US to get their hands into the Internet and block all access to ISIS videos. At the very least, track the downloads, and put people who hit a certain threshold on watch lists.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 2, 2017 18:13:44 GMT -5
Poor, poor guy. He must have suffered so much. I'm sure the families understand why he chose to mow down their family member instead of just offing his own poor mistreated self. Thank Heavens nobody else has problems. Its very common for some men to lash out and hurt others when they are in pain. Why do you think so many men kill SOs? Its rarely because the SOs are horrible people, its usually because they and perhaps the kids, relatives or friends make nice targets in their mind. Its more uncommon for men to lash out and look to hurt nameless others, but it happens. Some do it all at once and others are serial killers.
People without hope have always been at high risk for murder or suicide. Ignoring that won't change anything.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 2, 2017 18:33:35 GMT -5
I forgot now where I was reading it but I was reading an article about how cyberspace is going to be the next great evolution in war fare.
If that is true, then IMO instead of running around trying to ethnically profile people we'd be better off investing that time and putting some money into becoming the best at cyber war fare.
Not only would that be beneficial to making it more of a headache to recruit people, it would also be helpful with what has been going on with countries like Russia hacking Facebook trying to influence people's votes.
I also think instead of fostering an "us vs them" mentality that we should instead be reinforcing a sense of community. Safety is important for everyone not just the people who were "here first". If I know my neighbor and he knows me we're a lot more likely to notice something out of the ordinary. People are more likely to come forward if they know people will listen.
School shootings have been stopped because students are encouraged to speak up. Not speak up because they see a kid with a funny accent but because someone's behavior was odd. Why can children/teenagers figure this out but adults can't?
I also think the ban on gun research should be lifted. If we want to stop these things BEFORE they happen then we need to know what causes them in the first place. If we want to know WHO is more likely to do it then we need to have the data to build an accurate profile instead of running around stereotyping people. This guy alone should make it obvious stereotyping doesn't work. You can't do any of that without research.
I actually agree that the Diversity Visa program should be looked at and revamped. Where I disagree is that it should be based on ethnic profiling which hasn't worked ever.
What should do is put the time and money into the infrastructure we already have so people here on VISAs can be tracked properly. Right now you got one overworked caseworker tracking hundreds of people. Which means guys like this fall thru the cracks. The guys who committed 9/11 fall thru the cracks.
This is what countries that we hold up as shining immigration examples do. They track everyone who comes in and makes sure they leave. We have the infrastructure in place, we just need to give it the teeth to do it's job.
I know it's not as elegantly simple as promoting isolationism. I imagine it would cost either the same or be cheaper because if we want to go the isolation route you're going to have to have someone checking every plane, boat and car coming into this country to make sure there isn't a single non-American getting in and if they do catch them.
And eventually no matter how much you stamp your feet the world will get in, history shows that. Lots of countries have isolated themselves and eventually the rest of the world came barreling in.
I'd rather put the time and money into the systems we already have and prepare for the next stage in human warfare. Isolation works great for the short term but it leaves us prone to being caught with our pants down as the rest of the world passes us by. History shows it's not fun being the gun with your pants down.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Nov 2, 2017 21:17:08 GMT -5
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Nov 2, 2017 21:30:55 GMT -5
Interesting comment I found- Manhattan terror attack (truck) - 8 people dead and 13 injured. Charlottesville rally (car) - 1 person dead and 19 wounded Hamburg stabbing (knife) - 1 person dead and 6 injured London bridge attack (van + multiple knifemen) - 8 people died and 48 injured Orlando shooting - 49 people dead and 58 injured. Las Vegas shooting - 58 people dead and 546 injured. Sandy Hook shooting - 28 people dead and 2 injured. Anyone see a trend?
The shootings have higher counts of people dead and injured, by a significant degree. As horrible as this is, it would take seven attacks like this to get close to the count of dead and injured in Las Vegas.
How nice of them to forget Nice, France with 86 dead and 458 injured( ) The Latino group responsible for the ad has pulled it. Not because it was just plain outrageous. They pulled it due to the present news story in NYC concerning Islamic terrorism ...... Although they did not call it that.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Nov 2, 2017 22:18:55 GMT -5
Found an article on MSN. We need to change our culture if we hope to stop men unhappy with their lives from lashing out and hurting others. This guy had similar motivations to the Aurora shooter. www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/finding-a-rootless-life-in-us-sayfullo-saipov-turned-to-radicalism/ar-AAukTGN?li=BBnb7Kz Mr. Saipov drove a semi-truck for a living, logging tens of thousands of miles back and forth across the country, from Denver to Detroit, from Canton, Mass., to Salt Lake City. He moved his wife and children from state to state, always searching for something — friends in Ohio, a new life in Florida, family in New Jersey, where he started driving for Uber six months ago. Nothing ever stuck.
And on Tuesday, Mr. Saipov, now 29, who had spent so many hours on the road by himself, who a former friend said had “monsters inside,” decided to drive one last truck, this one a Home Depot rental, down a crowded bike path on the West Side of Manhattan, the authorities said. Eight people died. But about a year ago, he began plotting an attack, the authorities said, and he eventually started downloading ISIS videos. Two months ago he decided how he would do it, the way he could inflict maximum damage. It was obvious: a truck.
We do not have to change our culture if we hope to stop them. Our government has to recognize people of their old world culture need guidance and help. A lot of it. Years of it. This is not limited to just people of Islamic faith. This is the whole point of America. Accept our culture, of accepting everyone's culture. The point is these young males have been indoctrinated from day one in the homeland about how to live, how to control your wife, kids, and anyone else in their lives. They are not raised to understand acceptance of something out of the normal realm of things. They move here for whatever reason and realize they are "not in Kansas anymore" and living in the nightmare of their worse nightmare. Women drive Women wear make up, heads and faces not covered. Men shave. Women actually talk to their husbands and have their own views and ideas and not afraid to say them in public. Women dress less than their conservative mores People do not worship their own God even if it is different than Allah Dancing with the Stars is on television, or for that matter, almost any show on television including the public television station which talks about politics and social mores. Politics is discussed openly in public where people blasphemy the people in power. Openly, without punishment There are a thousands of other reasons, and many have nothing to do with women but with a country that does not follow their ideals. Their world has literally gone to Hell in a hand basket.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 2, 2017 22:31:00 GMT -5
I disagree. Because we need to change the culture of what it means to be male so white males and other males stop killing people because they are dis-satisfied or unhappy with their lives. This is not a Muslim culture issue. It is a being masculine culture issue.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 3, 2017 6:53:36 GMT -5
hey, I'm just settin' 'em up and you guys are knockin' 'em down - don't be mad at me. See, this is the problem - anything other than foaming-at-the-mouth nationalism is being complicit in allowing terrorism. There is no grey anymore, no actual dialogue - it's THIS or THAT. And that is exactly what extremists want us to do. Well...you'd be right if it weren't for the "foaming-at-the-mouth nationalism" and....the other stuff. But let's have some dialogue. Tell me about your "grey" area. If you are so inclined, tell me what you are willing to meet in the middle with. Let's pretend for a second that you are THIS and I am THAT and we don't want just THIS and THAT. So what are you willing to give in on? I can tell you what I'm willing to meet in the middle with. Can you tell me what you are willing to meet in the middle with? Cause while I agree we can't really have THIS or THAT, THIS isn't working and THAT isn't the answer.
I'm sorry that I don't have a lot of time right now, but if you decide to answer, I'll be back and hold up my end of the bargain. And personally? I don't give a flying "f" what extremists want or don't want so I won't be basing my answers on that. I would care about their motivation if it wasn't for the fact they are just evil and it doesn't matter what you or I do or think - they will still be just evil pieces of shit. If it mattered, I'd care. But since it doesn't, I don't.
I'm also relatively short on time (to provide the response this deserves). For now I want to address what I meant by "what the terrorists want". From what I've seen, terrorism thrives on extreme division in values, and any attacks create a further divide. Instead of coming together and having a discussion about how we can better address the factors that lead these men to commit atrocities, we are fighting amongst ourselves about things that will not have any effect on terrorism. The world is small. People can be radicalized no matter their background or country of origin. Keeping out foreigners feels like the "correct" response, but without addressing the factors leading people to radicalism thinking and terrorism, it will be a pointless endeavor that will hurt us in the long run.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Nov 3, 2017 17:37:39 GMT -5
I guess I meant nationalism. A lot of people hate foreigners. It is possible his accent made him a target. Well then perhaps having a lottery isn't the best way to bring in immigrants, hm? How about having a prerequisite of people learning the language and customs of this country BEFORE letting them in?
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Nov 3, 2017 17:41:14 GMT -5
Yeah.....cause if an accusation of racism falls flat....come up with some other horseshit and see if it sticks to the wall. I'd laugh but I'm not in the mood - dead people and all. Excuse this all you want, make up as many reasons as you want, but it's not going to matter. The fault lies with this man and this man only. And he didn't have to be here. None of the white dudes who have gone on murder sprees had to be here either. They were born here but there was nothing stopping them from running off to join Isis if they wanted to so badly as opposed to harming people here. It's interesting to me that when it is a person who wasn't born here there are cries of "kick everyone out! Ban immigrants! They only come here to kill us!" but when it's one of our own the answer is "Well he was a lone nut ball and we can't really control lone nut balls or figure out why they do things, mass shootings are just something we have to accept. After all more Americans die in car crashes than they do in mass murders". Never mind that way more people come over here that don't murder people than do. Apparently that logic only applies to homegrown terrorists. White male shooters do not represent all Americans but if one immigrant murders someone well then they ALL need to be held responsible! Exactly...just like when someone kills a bunch of people with a gun, they somehow represent all gun owners and ALL must be put under additional scrutiny and regulation. Oh, but now we'll here the arguments of "but, but but...uh, racism and, and NRA! Deeeeeeeerrrrrrr!"
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Nov 3, 2017 17:42:27 GMT -5
Yeah.....cause if an accusation of racism falls flat....come up with some other horseshit and see if it sticks to the wall. I'd laugh but I'm not in the mood - dead people and all. Excuse this all you want, make up as many reasons as you want, but it's not going to matter. The fault lies with this man and this man only. And he didn't have to be here. hey, I'm just settin' 'em up and you guys are knockin' 'em down - don't be mad at me. See, this is the problem - anything other than foaming-at-the-mouth nationalism is being complicit in allowing terrorism. There is no grey anymore, no actual dialogue - it's THIS or THAT. And that is exactly what extremists want us to do. You mean sort of like if you're against illegal immigration, then you're against ALL immigrants? Yeah, pretty stupid argument, right?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 3, 2017 18:19:06 GMT -5
I guess I meant nationalism. A lot of people hate foreigners. It is possible his accent made him a target. Well then perhaps having a lottery isn't the best way to bring in immigrants, hm? How about having a prerequisite of people learning the language and customs of this country BEFORE letting them in? Even if they learn the language and culture, it is pretty easy to sense that they are not wanted here. Turn on the TV, read this board, listen to the radio, walk around in public. We aren't doing a great job at disguising our hatred of immigrants. Hate begets hate. We are reaping what we sowed. I guess it is a good thing that we now are allowed to say it and incorporate it into our policies. They will know it is not going to be what we have pretended it was all along. We have always hated immigrants, but put out shiny, glossy brochures about how we are the land of immigrants and diversity. In reality, we are not.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 3, 2017 19:11:44 GMT -5
Of course immigrants used to come, get jobs, learn the language, follow our laws. Now that’s history.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 3, 2017 19:23:16 GMT -5
Of course immigrants used to come, get jobs, learn the language, follow our laws. Now that’s history. You have revisionist history coupled with selective facts. The reason many olderbcities have neighborhoods that have ethnic identities is so immigrants could continue their culture and language, and they were not permitted to do so outside those neighborhoods. You can go to Chinatown today and find people who have lived here for decades and still don't know English. It is easy to find places in little Italy where everyone is still speaking Italian - multiple generations, none of them recent additions to this land. Greektown, same deal. Their foods, languages and traditions are alive and well. As for immigrants today - the vast majority of them do get jobs and even if they don't use English as their primary language, use the school system to have their second generation learn English. Just as they have always done. There is no evidence that immigrants today are integrating at a slower rate than their predecessors. It is something you may perceive. But in reality, you are either working with bad data or bias or most likely both.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 3, 2017 19:40:10 GMT -5
hey, I'm just settin' 'em up and you guys are knockin' 'em down - don't be mad at me. See, this is the problem - anything other than foaming-at-the-mouth nationalism is being complicit in allowing terrorism. There is no grey anymore, no actual dialogue - it's THIS or THAT. And that is exactly what extremists want us to do. You mean sort of like if you're against illegal immigration, then you're against ALL immigrants? Yeah, pretty stupid argument, right? it is a pretty stupid argument, so I don't know why you brought it up to me.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 3, 2017 19:41:24 GMT -5
Of course immigrants used to come, get jobs, learn the language, follow our laws. Now that’s history. You have revisionist history coupled with selective facts. just like how all welfare recipients are lazy scam artists.
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