Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 29, 2017 11:10:56 GMT -5
When I started teaching, my second year, an older teacher was retiring. She gave me all her old books, including a bulletin board idea book from, I don't know, the Middle Ages ... it had a lovely display for winter that it suggested be titled How to Build A Gay Snowman. Now, of course this book was from the pre, gay=homosexual days and the bulletin board was referring to the idea of a happy, carefree snowman... which was its traditional meaning. Had I decided to just go with it, I would have absolutely expected that I would have been getting calls. And not about happy snowmen. Sometimes, the meaning of something changes because of how society changes. So, go ahead and build a gay snowman if you want, but be prepared for people to interpret your actions on their understanding of commonly accepted meaning, and not your own. When I was in grade school, one of the exams used a question from some bygone era that referred to a man named "Gaylord". That got the whole gym snickering.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2017 22:06:27 GMT -5
Not even close to what I actually said. I fully, 100%, believe that racism is bad and wrong. No matter who is being racist to whom. What I said was (paraphrased): "But the cross! But the flag! If racists have those flags and crosses, and they are not considered racist, then them having the Confederate flag doesn't make the Confederate flag racist either." You might want to reflect on how the swastika is viewed here, in Germany, and in other places. It was a sacred symbol, and still is in parts of the world. However, it is also the most well known symbol of Nazi Germany and therefore seen as a symbol of hate by many. www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007453
In your part of the country, the south, some see the confederate flag as you do. However, most people in the North and parts of the South see it as a symbol of White supremacy, which it also is. The cross is used around the globe by different people of multiple colors and races. The American flag is used by more folks who aren't supremacists so it hasn't suffered symbol association the way the Confederate flag has. Only klansman in their white robes evoke white supremacy more to most people. MO.
I can't (and won't) comment on the fight to take back the meaning of the swastika. It literally has no meaning for me what-so-ever. That fight is for people of Indian origin to fight if they wish to do so. The Confederate flag is not a symbol of white supremacy. Anyone that sees it as such doesn't see it for what it really means. They see it as those the usurped it wish it to be seen. Congratulations to them, they succeeded in their cause if you see it that way... and they keep succeeding as long as people see it that way. The fact that it's actually NOT that way is why we need to teach real history instead of watered down, "feel good", PC, revisionist, and crap history.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Sept 30, 2017 12:50:57 GMT -5
The Confederate flag simply represents the losing side in the Civil War. And now it's been usurped by racists to become their symbol of white supremacy. I guess there are still those south of the Mason~Dixon Line that wish this weren't true and will go to great lengths to deny it. A simple review of post #101 for starters makes it quite easy to dismiss such comments as 'watered down, feel good, PC, revisionist, and crap history' as apologista for that failed cause. The war was lost over 150 years ago. Eventually everyone will get over it.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 30, 2017 13:38:48 GMT -5
The Confederate flag simply represents the losing side in the Civil War. And now it's been usurped by racists to become their symbol of white supremacy. I guess there are still those south of the Mason~Dixon Line that wish this weren't true and will go to great lengths to deny it. A simple review of post #101 for starters makes it quite easy to dismiss such comments as 'watered down, feel good, PC, revisionist, and crap history' as apologista for that failed cause. The war was lost over 150 years ago. Eventually everyone will get over it. You say "usurped" as though we should ignore the overwhelming majority of Southerners who don't use the flag as a symbol of white supremacy. If Richard and I form a white supremacist group and use the following as our flag: How many people do we need to recruit before your avatar becomes a symbol of white supremacy?
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Sept 30, 2017 13:51:38 GMT -5
I do? And do whatever you want.
Usurped: 2. to use without authority or right; employ wrongfully: The magazine usurped copyrighted material.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Sept 30, 2017 16:22:10 GMT -5
The Confederate flag simply represents the losing side in the Civil War. And now it's been usurped by racists to become their symbol of white supremacy. I guess there are still those south of the Mason~Dixon Line that wish this weren't true and will go to great lengths to deny it. A simple review of post #101 for starters makes it quite easy to dismiss such comments as 'watered down, feel good, PC, revisionist, and crap history' as apologista for that failed cause. The war was lost over 150 years ago. Eventually everyone will get over it. You say "usurped" as though we should ignore the overwhelming majority of Southerners who don't use the flag as a symbol of white supremacy. If Richard and I form a white supremacist group and use the following as our flag: How many people do we need to recruit before your avatar becomes a symbol of white supremacy?It might not be obvious, but this is not the right question to ask. White people may not see it as a symbol of white supremacy largely because it isn't used against them. I almost posted a link to views on the Confederate Flag. Overall, the majority see it as a Southern Pride symbol. However, I think it was illuminating to see how different types of people saw it. Republicans largely saw it as a Southern Pride symbol. As did whites. By a large majority, blacks saw it as a symbol of white supremacy. And that's important, because they are the target of white supremacists, not your average white person. Certainly not your average Republican.
So in my opinion once a good percentage of black people see it as a symbol of white supremacy, it is one. Its up to you whether you want the tipping point to be 40%, 51% or something else.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 30, 2017 17:25:13 GMT -5
You say "usurped" as though we should ignore the overwhelming majority of Southerners who don't use the flag as a symbol of white supremacy. If Richard and I form a white supremacist group and use the following as our flag: How many people do we need to recruit before your avatar becomes a symbol of white supremacy?It might not be obvious, but this is not the right question to ask. White people may not see it as a symbol of white supremacy largely because it isn't used against them. I almost posted a link to views on the Confederate Flag. Overall, the majority see it as a Southern Pride symbol. However, I think it was illuminating to see how different types of people saw it. Republicans largely saw it as a Southern Pride symbol. As did whites. By a large majority, blacks saw it as a symbol of white supremacy. And that's important, because they are the target of white supremacists, not your average white person. Certainly not your average Republican.
So in my opinion once a good percentage of black people see it as a symbol of white supremacy, it is one. Its up to you whether you want the tipping point to be 40%, 51% or something else.
What say you: Is the meaning of a symbol, such as a flag or a gesture, defined by the user, by the audience, or by something else?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2017 20:13:15 GMT -5
The Confederate flag simply represents the losing side in the Civil War. And now it's been usurped by racists to become their symbol of white supremacy. I guess there are still those south of the Mason~Dixon Line that wish this weren't true and will go to great lengths to deny it. A simple review of post #101 for starters makes it quite easy to dismiss such comments as 'watered down, feel good, PC, revisionist, and crap history' as apologista for that failed cause. The war was lost over 150 years ago. Eventually everyone will get over it. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. It doesn't "simply represents the losing side in the Civil War". What it represents is a (admittedly failed) struggle against an over bearing and constitutionally invalid federal government. It also represents resiliency, heritage, and pride in the good things that made America great. Yes, I do agree that it's been usurped. BUT that usurpation doesn't change what it ACTUALLY represents. Just ask BLACK supporters of the flag. (there are more of them out there than you think, they just don't get the press coverage because "OMG a black person supporting racism!" knee-jerk reactions against the truth that would totally and completely undermine the BS apologist and revisionist garbage that the nation has come to expect from journalists). Hopefully real Americans will never "get over" the true meanings and cause of the Civil War. If we do, we won't be free Americans anymore because we will have given all of our power and free will to the State.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2017 20:16:11 GMT -5
The Confederate flag simply represents the losing side in the Civil War. And now it's been usurped by racists to become their symbol of white supremacy. I guess there are still those south of the Mason~Dixon Line that wish this weren't true and will go to great lengths to deny it. A simple review of post #101 for starters makes it quite easy to dismiss such comments as 'watered down, feel good, PC, revisionist, and crap history' as apologista for that failed cause. The war was lost over 150 years ago. Eventually everyone will get over it. You say "usurped" as though we should ignore the overwhelming majority of Southerners who don't use the flag as a symbol of white supremacy. If Richard and I form a white supremacist group and use the following as our flag:How many people do we need to recruit before your avatar becomes a symbol of white supremacy?Good question... I note that he's made a post responding to this but doesn't actually answer your question. I'm not surprised because I don't believe that he can answer it honestly without invalidating his whole opinion on the Confederate flag.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2017 20:28:17 GMT -5
You say "usurped" as though we should ignore the overwhelming majority of Southerners who don't use the flag as a symbol of white supremacy. If Richard and I form a white supremacist group and use the following as our flag: How many people do we need to recruit before your avatar becomes a symbol of white supremacy?It might not be obvious, but this is not the right question to ask. White people may not see it as a symbol of white supremacy largely because it isn't used against them. I almost posted a link to views on the Confederate Flag. Overall, the majority see it as a Southern Pride symbol. However, I think it was illuminating to see how different types of people saw it. Republicans largely saw it as a Southern Pride symbol. As did whites. By a large majority, blacks saw it as a symbol of white supremacy. And that's important, because they are the target of white supremacists, not your average white person. Certainly not your average Republican.
So in my opinion once a good percentage of black people see it as a symbol of white supremacy, it is one. Its up to you whether you want the tipping point to be 40%, 51% or something else.
When people see things that aren't there though, should their opinion of what something is matter more than the opinions of people that see something for what it actually is? I'm not just talking about the flag here. If (against all odds) "Flat-Earthers" gain a majority, should we all stop believing in a round planet... just because they believe we're wrong? What if we limit it to something that can be further sub-divided and just go with the majority of that minority? Young Earth Creationists believe that the Earth is ~6000 years old. Many (but not all) of them believe that Dinosaur Fossils were created by Satan to trick us into believing that it's older. Therefore, since a majority of that minority believe that Dinosaur fossils are a Satanic trick, we must also believe it... right? In summary: I think that the tipping point should always be the line between "What's fantasy and what's reality? Believe reality" no matter what the issue is.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Sept 30, 2017 21:48:48 GMT -5
It might not be obvious, but this is not the right question to ask. White people may not see it as a symbol of white supremacy largely because it isn't used against them. I almost posted a link to views on the Confederate Flag. Overall, the majority see it as a Southern Pride symbol. However, I think it was illuminating to see how different types of people saw it. Republicans largely saw it as a Southern Pride symbol. As did whites. By a large majority, blacks saw it as a symbol of white supremacy. And that's important, because they are the target of white supremacists, not your average white person. Certainly not your average Republican.
So in my opinion once a good percentage of black people see it as a symbol of white supremacy, it is one. Its up to you whether you want the tipping point to be 40%, 51% or something else.
When people see things that aren't there though, should their opinion of what something is matter more than the opinions of people that see something for what it actually is?I'm not just talking about the flag here. If (against all odds) "Flat-Earthers" gain a majority, should we all stop believing in a round planet... just because they believe we're wrong? What if we limit it to something that can be further sub-divided and just go with the majority of that minority? Young Earth Creationists believe that the Earth is ~6000 years old. Many (but not all) of them believe that Dinosaur Fossils were created by Satan to trick us into believing that it's older. Therefore, since a majority of that minority believe that Dinosaur fossils are a Satanic trick, we must also believe it... right? In summary: I think that the tipping point should always be the line between "What's fantasy and what's reality? Believe reality" no matter what the issue is.I bolded two points of yours. When it comes to things that cannot be objectively proven, it is often simply opinions of different groups of people. Therefore, unless they profess something most people recognize is out of the norm at best they are dueling or different opinions.
Objectively, the Confederate flag is just a flag. Its made of cloth with a red, blue, and touch of white in the design. The only meaning it gets is what people associate with it. Much like the national anthem and the flag. There is no inherent reality to that piece of cloth except what people give it. You probably grew up in the South steeped with ideas and beliefs about the flag that many of us Northerners did not get. Perhaps it was even talked about in school, likely much differently than it was in mine.
Sure there are black people who see it as Southern Pride. They may come from that tradition and have not had the flag used against them as 'get the heck out of here non-white person' flag. If its used that way towards you, it shouldn't be surprising that even if you saw it as a Southern Pride thing at one time, its going to play more as a white Supremacist flag the next time you see it. The reality is groups not in the south use that flag. They aren't using it as a celebration of their ex-pat South status real or imagined. They are using it as a get out of the US, non white person flag. There are multiple realities with that flag. For some it symbolizes Southern Pride. For some it symbolizes White Supremacists. And for others the losing side or a combination of all three. None of those realities make any of the either ones untrue. And its because its all personal held beliefs about what this piece of cloth means.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2017 21:50:19 GMT -5
See things that aren't there? Seriously? Fantasy? Seriously?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Sept 30, 2017 21:51:44 GMT -5
What I did on the internet today. I discussed the meaning of cloth on a stick.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2017 22:32:21 GMT -5
When people see things that aren't there though, should their opinion of what something is matter more than the opinions of people that see something for what it actually is?I'm not just talking about the flag here. If (against all odds) "Flat-Earthers" gain a majority, should we all stop believing in a round planet... just because they believe we're wrong? What if we limit it to something that can be further sub-divided and just go with the majority of that minority? Young Earth Creationists believe that the Earth is ~6000 years old. Many (but not all) of them believe that Dinosaur Fossils were created by Satan to trick us into believing that it's older. Therefore, since a majority of that minority believe that Dinosaur fossils are a Satanic trick, we must also believe it... right? In summary: I think that the tipping point should always be the line between "What's fantasy and what's reality? Believe reality" no matter what the issue is. I bolded two points of yours. When it comes to things that cannot be objectively proven, it is often simply opinions of different groups of people. Therefore, unless they profess something most people recognize is out of the norm at best they are dueling or different opinions.
Objectively, the Confederate flag is just a flag. Its made of cloth with a red, blue, and touch of white in the design. The only meaning it gets is what people associate with it. Much like the national anthem and the flag. There is no inherent reality to that piece of cloth except what people give it. You probably grew up in the South steeped with ideas and beliefs about the flag that many of us Northerners did not get. Perhaps it was even talked about in school, likely much differently than it was in mine.
Sure there are black people who see it as Southern Pride. They may come from that tradition and have not had the flag used against them as 'get the heck out of here non-white person' flag. If its used that way towards you, it shouldn't be surprising that even if you saw it as a Southern Pride thing at one time, its going to play more as a white Supremacist flag the next time you see it. The reality is groups not in the south use that flag. They aren't using it as a celebration of their ex-pat South status real or imagined. They are using it as a get out of the US, non white person flag. There are multiple realities with that flag. For some it symbolizes Southern Pride. For some it symbolizes White Supremacists. And for others the losing side or a combination of all three. None of those realities make any of the either ones untrue. And its because its all personal held beliefs about what this piece of cloth means.
"When things cannot be objectively proven"... I agree with 1000%. It's easy to OBJECTIVELY prove what I have said about the Confederacy and the Confederate flag. Now... that doesn't mean that the flag hasn't been improperly used. I don't even remotely deny that it's been improperly used. I freely admit that that's happened. BUT, if you are going to label it (the Confederate flag) based on it's misuse, then you must label ALL things misused by their misuse as well... otherwise you are not being objective.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2017 22:33:53 GMT -5
See things that aren't there? Seriously? Fantasy? Seriously? Yes. Seriously. "The Confederate flag represents slavery" is FANTASY.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Sept 30, 2017 22:50:25 GMT -5
See things that aren't there? Seriously? Fantasy? Seriously? Yes. Seriously. "The Confederate flag represents slavery" is FANTASY. In your mind perhaps. Many disagree with you.
Why is the Confederate flag considered racist?
Although some take pride in its history, the battle flag also became a potent symbol of slavery and white supremacy in the United States.
Today neo-Nazi groups often display it alongside swastikas and other race hate motifs.
According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, the Confederate battle flag “is one of the most controversial symbols from US history.
“To many white Southerners, the flag is an emblem of regional heritage and pride.
"But to others, it has a starkly different meaning — representing racism, slavery and the country’s long history of oppression of African Americans.”
It adds: “It’s difficult to make the case today that the Confederate flag is not a racist symbol."
www.thesun.co.uk/news/3621818/confederate-flag-racist-banned/
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2017 23:04:10 GMT -5
Yes. Seriously. "The Confederate flag represents slavery" is FANTASY. In your mind perhaps. Many disagree with you.
Why is the Confederate flag considered racist?
Although some take pride in its history, the battle flag also became a potent symbol of slavery and white supremacy in the United States.
Today neo-Nazi groups often display it alongside swastikas and other race hate motifs.
According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, the Confederate battle flag “is one of the most controversial symbols from US history.
“To many white Southerners, the flag is an emblem of regional heritage and pride.
"But to others, it has a starkly different meaning — representing racism, slavery and the country’s long history of oppression of African Americans.”
It adds: “It’s difficult to make the case today that the Confederate flag is not a racist symbol."
www.thesun.co.uk/news/3621818/confederate-flag-racist-banned/
Has nothing to do with "in [my] mind". But you can't or won't look at it objectively. You prefer to buy into the "the Confederacy was all about slavery" fantasy, the same as (sadly) many others buy into it, including teh writer of that article, apparently. Until people realize that that mindset IS fantasy, they won't be open to the truth about what the secession was really about. And until you are ready to do that yourself, all we are going to do is go around in circles... so I believe that I will respectfully bow out.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Oct 1, 2017 12:23:43 GMT -5
Yes, I do agree that it's been usurped.
Thank you, Richard. My work here is done.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Oct 1, 2017 16:48:36 GMT -5
See things that aren't there? Seriously? Fantasy? Seriously? Yes. Seriously. "The Confederate flag represents slavery" is FANTASY. Once again, stating opinion as fact...
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 1, 2017 17:22:41 GMT -5
Hoo boy. Here we go for round #173.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2017 19:36:17 GMT -5
Yes. Seriously. "The Confederate flag represents slavery" is FANTASY. Once again, stating opinion as fact... Nope. Not even close to opinion. Fact. Do people have that opinion themselves? Sure. But their opinion is wrong and ignores the facts of what the secession was about. Just because some (even a majority of them) people have an opinion doesn't make it reality if they are wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2017 19:37:42 GMT -5
Hoo boy. Here we go for round #173.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Oct 3, 2017 11:43:55 GMT -5
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Oct 3, 2017 18:05:03 GMT -5
Once again, stating opinion as fact... Nope. Not even close to opinion. Fact. Do people have that opinion themselves? Sure. But their opinion is wrong and ignores the facts of what the secession was about. Just because some (even a majority of them) people have an opinion doesn't make it reality if they are wrong. Its cloth on a stick Richard, there is no fact on what it represents now. Merely opinion. Consensus opinion perhaps ... however its been proven multiple times in rounds 2 through 172 that indeed some people saw it as pro slavery as well when it was designed and created.
Reality.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Oct 3, 2017 18:09:41 GMT -5
Pretty well thought out.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2017 21:50:38 GMT -5
Nope. Not even close to opinion. Fact. Do people have that opinion themselves? Sure. But their opinion is wrong and ignores the facts of what the secession was about. Just because some (even a majority of them) people have an opinion doesn't make it reality if they are wrong. Its cloth on a stick Richard, there is no fact on what it represents now. Merely opinion. Consensus opinion perhaps ... however its been proven multiple times in rounds 2 through 172 that indeed some people saw it as pro slavery as well when it was designed and created.
Reality. Yes. It's a "cloth on a stick"... but it was a "cloth on a stick" designed with a specific purpose in mind. And that specific purpose was to be a representation of either the Army of Northern Virginia {the square version} or the Confederate Navy {the rectangular version}). In both cases, a fighting force that was fighting for states' rights and an end to unconstitutional federal tyranny. If people saw it for anything other than what it actually was... that's not on the flag. That's on them. As has been said and proven many times: If it was about slavery, all the Southern states needed to do was STAY IN THE UNION. Slavery was already legal, and (due to The Corwin Amendment) was going to be made irrevocable by the Union if the Southern states stayed or came back. Lincoln already considered it (The Corwin Amendment) de facto law when he was inaugurated. He says so in his speech.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 4, 2017 4:52:32 GMT -5
No one is going to change their minds about the flag. Either way.
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