Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 23, 2017 9:57:04 GMT -5
I'm burned out. If you don't agree or try to defend what others say is racist, you're racist. I haven't gotten to the point of considering it a compliment but I'm close. I know the feeling.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 23, 2017 17:44:25 GMT -5
. We have gangs of Middle Eastern men trafficking young white girls. We have Middle Eastern taxi drivers raping and sexually assaulting white women. We even had a married Middle Eastern man with six kids of his own, sexually assaulting young girls at a swimming pool.
If you dare say anything, it's a hate crime, and they call you a racist.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 24, 2017 2:06:33 GMT -5
We have gangs of Middle Eastern men trafficking young white girls. We have Middle Eastern taxi drivers raping and sexually assaulting white women. We even had a married Middle Eastern man with six kids of his own, sexually assaulting young girls at a swimming pool. If you dare say anything, it's a hate crime, and they call you a racist. Get them prosecuted.The sh*t has really hit the fan here. The Country has been horrified at the extent of these crimes and how police forces in the Northern towns have just let it happen. Political correctness has been allowed to trump child safety. Grooming gangs from 16 Towns and cities have been convicted and hundreds of young girls have been groomed and raped.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Aug 24, 2017 5:13:19 GMT -5
If you notice someone's race, you are a racist.
If you do not notice someone's race, you are a racist.
However, there are exceptions to this:
If you notice someone's race and you are a liberal, you are not a racist.
If you do not notice someone's race and you are a liberal, you are not a racist.
If you notice someone's race and you are a conservative, you are a racist.
If you do not notice someone's race and you are a conservative, you are a racist.
Now, is that clear to everyone?
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Aug 24, 2017 5:26:03 GMT -5
Which of the following behaviours constitute racism? - At a dinner party, Bob claims "Asians are smarter than whites," citing a 2008 Swedish study on general intelligence that includes statistics categorized by race.
- Jill, a white woman who was once assaulted by a black man, crosses the street whenever she sees a large black man approaching on her side of the sidewalk.
- Mary declares at a political rally, "Most white cops--nearly all of them--are racist."
- Joe keeps a Confederate flag--a keepsake from his childhood--in his bedroom window. He refuses to take it down even after several people insist it's a symbol of racism and makes them uncomfortable.
- Holly claims she would never marry a black man because she finds them loud and unattractive.
- Jim asks Lo, a newcomer to his town of obviously Asian descent, "Are you from China?"
- Peter, a white man, is a firm believer in Affirmative Action and racial quotas. "Black communities need a leg up to compensate for other systemic inequalities," he claims.
- Donna argues online, "All lives matter. White privilege is just and excuse made up by black people."
- Les, a Korean man, refuses to hire anyone except Koreans to work in his shop.
- Kim, a deeply religious woman, disapproves of interracial marriages, sincerely believing that God intended the races be kept separate and distinct.
- Roy, an ethnic Jew, maintains a site "sonsofishmael.com" documenting atrocities committed by Arabs and defending a thesis that Arabs are a violent and factious people by nature.
- Maude, a black professor of sociology, pens an op ed asking readers to eschew citing the research of white sociologists, arguing their research is inherently biased and instrumental in the perpetuation of dangerous stereotypes.
- Neil, an Asian man, is an outspoken proponent of racial profiling for police work, believing that profiling makes policing smarter and more effective.
- John, a man indifferent to race, refuses to stop hanging out with Ellis, his childhood friend and an outspoken white supremacist, simply because of his beliefs on race.
- Gary, a black TV entertainer, frequently pokes fun at whites, mocking their dancing and driving abilities in particular.
- Kate, a white woman, and her friend Katelyn, a black woman, agree in a discussion that "there's a difference between blacks and (N word)s".
- James categorically refuses to hire another aboriginal man after his previous two aboriginal employees suffered problems with alcohol abuse.
- Jeanine, a full-time volunteer for a NGO in the Black Lives Matter movement, argues on her blog that modest taxes should be levied on white Americans to fund a reparations package intended to compensate "people of colour" from past injustices such as slavery.
- Ellie, a white New Englander, reflexively calls white debate opponents racist and bigoted when she perceives she's losing an argument.
- Joseph, a Texan, sincerely believes the influx of Mexican migrants to the US is a threat to the stability and prosperity of the nation.
As a special request from me: if posters wouldn't mind making this thread about issues and ideas rather than specific people, I'd appreciate it. What does racism mean to you? 1. Needs some qualifiers. Asians, as a group test better/smarter than other groups in certain areas of intelligence might be something that could be supported perhaps based on certain kinds of tests. 2. Jill is doing what she is doing based on a previous terrible experience. If a dog bites you, you stay away from dogs. If a bee stings you and you see a bee, you feel fear even if that particular bee didn't sting you. That's pretty much human nature and self protection. Does she also cross the street if a large white male approaches? And, I am betting she does as well since the person she was assaulted by was also male. Does that then make her sexist? Sometimes these things are more complex than simply, oh she crosses the street when a black man approaches. 3. Mary - is just a moron. Not much else to say on that one. 4. Joe - I am from the North so the Confederate flag doesn't mean anything to me. I don't know what it means to Southernors nor do I know how blacks feel about it but presumably many of them find it to be a symbol of racism. So, if Joe wants to fly his flag in his home, then he may. However, if he doesn't care about the feelings of his neighbors, then I think that he isn't a very good neighbor to be considerate that for them it is not a symbol of southern pride. 5. Holly - You "can't help who you are attracted too" according to liberal thinking. So, guess according to liberals then, she can't help it so if you can't help something in our modern world, then therefore that makes it ok. But, in my opinion, she may not find black men attractive to her as a romantic partner and that is how she feels. I don't think that is necessarily racist, it is just her preference. But saying they are all "loud" seems like an ignorant statement.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Aug 24, 2017 5:32:06 GMT -5
6.Jim asks Lo, a newcomer to his town of obviously Asian descent, "Are you from China?"
7., a white man, is a firm believer in Affirmative Action and racial quotas. "Black communities need a leg up to compensate for other systemic inequalities," he claims.
8.Donna argues online, "All lives matter. White privilege is just and excuse made up by black people."
9.Les, a Korean man, refuses to hire anyone except Koreans to work in his shop.
______________________________________________________________________________
6. Jim - Could be a very innocent question if he has never met many Asian people. That doesnt' mean he "hates" them.
7. Affirmative action -- Is hiring someone based on skin color. Which is ironically the opposite of what they claim they want.
8. Donna - All lives do matter. And, the "white privilege' nonsense. Everyone in life has advantages and disadvantages. There is tall privilege, beauty privilege, youth privilege, wealth privilege, and on and on. Everyone is looked at through all kinds of filters.
9. Les - I don't know. Is that racist? Why is it OK for a Chinese restaurant to only employ Chinese people? Nobody seems to complain about that. So for some industries and businesses we seem to have no problem with it.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Aug 24, 2017 5:59:41 GMT -5
10. Kim, a deeply religious woman, disapproves of interracial marriages, sincerely believing that God intended the races be kept separate and distinct.
11. Roy, an ethnic Jew, maintains a site "sonsofishmael.com" documenting atrocities committed by Arabs and defending a thesis that Arabs are a violent and factious people by nature.
12.Maude, a black professor of sociology, pens an op ed asking readers to eschew citing the research of white sociologists, arguing their research is inherently biased and instrumental in the perpetuation of dangerous stereotypes.
13. Neil, an Asian man, is an outspoken proponent of racial profiling for police work, believing that profiling makes policing smarter and more effective.
________________________________________________________________
10. This needs qualifiers. If you are Christian and believe that, you are probably a racist. If you are Muslim and believe that, then we have to respect your right to have that opinion.
11. Based on eons of time and bad blood between them, does that really seem like an unreasonable conclusion for that person.
12. Maude - She may have a point. A lot of research is poorly designed and poorly done and approached with the idea of proving one's opinions and ignoring info that doesn't. Which is not how the scientific theory is suppposed to work. So, yes, there may be many studies that could be called on that.
13. Neil - Obviously the police need some criteria in order to help them do their jobs. If there were a lot of 5 yr olds burning down buildings in a certain town, then yes, the police are going to be looking at 5 yr olds. However, that doesn't mean they get to assault them, beat them or taser them or throw them to the ground. Everyone should still be presumed innocent unless they are caught actively involved in criminal behavior.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Aug 24, 2017 8:21:12 GMT -5
Which of the following behaviours constitute racism? - At a dinner party, Bob claims "Asians are smarter than whites," citing a 2008 Swedish study on general intelligence that includes statistics categorized by race. Not racist. If it's true, it's true.
- Jill, a white woman who was once assaulted by a black man, crosses the street whenever she sees a large black man approaching on her side of the sidewalk. Not racist. She's been traumatized. It doesn't say she crosses when she sees a black woman.
- Mary declares at a political rally, "Most white cops--nearly all of them--are racist." Not racist. Just uninformed.
- Joe keeps a Confederate flag--a keepsake from his childhood--in his bedroom window. He refuses to take it down even after several people insist it's a symbol of racism and makes them uncomfortable. Not enough info to know.
- Holly claims she would never marry a black man because she finds them loud and unattractive. Not racist. We are attracted to who we are attracted to. If she said her reason was because black men are inferior - that would be racist.
- Jim asks Lo, a newcomer to his town of obviously Asian descent, "Are you from China?" Not racist - just stupid.
- Peter, a white man, is a firm believer in Affirmative Action and racial quotas. "Black communities need a leg up to compensate for other systemic inequalities," he claims. Not racist.
- Donna argues online, "All lives matter. White privilege is just and excuse made up by black people." Not racist.
- Les, a Korean man, refuses to hire anyone except Koreans to work in his shop. This one is hard - but yes...racist. Try changing it to a white man refuses to hire anyone except white men to work in his shop and it becomes clearer.
- Kim, a deeply religious woman, disapproves of interracial marriages, sincerely believing that God intended the races be kept separate and distinct. Yes. Racist. Separate and distinct is the give away here.
- Roy, an ethnic Jew, maintains a site "sonsofishmael.com" documenting atrocities committed by Arabs and defending a thesis that Arabs are a violent and factious people by nature. Racist. He's basing his opinions of the whole on the actions of a few.
- Maude, a black professor of sociology, pens an op ed asking readers to eschew citing the research of white sociologists, arguing their research is inherently biased and instrumental in the perpetuation of dangerous stereotypes. Not racist. It appears she asking this for one assignment only and it might be pretty educational seeing the differences in research.
- Neil, an Asian man, is an outspoken proponent of racial profiling for police work, believing that profiling makes policing smarter and more effective. Can't determine. Depends on what actions are taking as a result.
- John, a man indifferent to race, refuses to stop hanging out with Ellis, his childhood friend and an outspoken white supremacist, simply because of his beliefs on race. Not racist. His friend is - he isn't. I don't believe in this "you are who you associate with". If that were true, I'd be a bleeding heart liberal.
- Gary, a black TV entertainer, frequently pokes fun at whites, mocking their dancing and driving abilities in particular. Not racist on the face. Its for entertainment purposes and it's kinda true.
- Kate, a white woman, and her friend Katelyn, a black woman, agree in a discussion that "there's a difference between blacks and (N word)s". Not racist. No different than white people referring to others as "white trash".
- James categorically refuses to hire another aboriginal man after his previous two aboriginal employees suffered problems with alcohol abuse. Is aboriginal a race? If so. Yes. Racist.
- Jeanine, a full-time volunteer for a NGO in the Black Lives Matter movement, argues on her blog that modest taxes should be levied on white Americans to fund a reparations package intended to compensate "people of colour" from past injustices such as slavery. Not racist - just incredibly stupid.
- Ellie, a white New Englander, reflexively calls white debate opponents racist and bigoted when she perceives she's losing an argument. Not racist. She's just not smart enough to come up with actual arguments so she falls back on what she feels is a scene ender. It's not anymore.
- Joseph, a Texan, sincerely believes the influx of Mexican migrants to the US is a threat to the stability and prosperity of the nation. Not racist. If the influx were a bunch of white people from England, Joseph would probably feel the same way. It's not the race - it's the influx.
As a special request from me: if posters wouldn't mind making this thread about issues and ideas rather than specific people, I'd appreciate it. What does racism mean to you? I gave it a try. Feel free to tear me up. I did it quickly and my mind could be changed based on arguments!
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 24, 2017 8:32:54 GMT -5
If you notice someone's race, you are a racist. If you do not notice someone's race, you are a racist. However, there are exceptions to this: If you notice someone's race and you are a liberal, you are not a racist. If you do not notice someone's race and you are a liberal, you are not a racist. If you notice someone's race and you are a conservative, you are a racist. If you do not notice someone's race and you are a conservative, you are a racist. Now, is that clear to everyone? Thanks for your personal explanation. Now to read Adolf Hitler's personal explanation on the benevolence shown to the Jews of Europe by Nazi Germany.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 24, 2017 10:32:44 GMT -5
Oh goody. If you're not a racist you're a nazi.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 24, 2017 10:33:38 GMT -5
Virgil, you're right. I'm sorry
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Aug 24, 2017 10:41:24 GMT -5
I'm burned out. If you don't agree or try to defend what others say is racist, you're racist. I haven't gotten to the point of considering it a compliment but I'm close. You know? I hate that. I really do. But I see where you are coming from. When people resort to stuff like that, it's because they know they have no other valid argument and it's just sort of confirmation you are coming from the right place. Very sad but very true.
I don't even deny it anymore. It would be like me constantly having to deny I'm male. It's so dumb, it isn't even worth my time. That's sad, too, because there are horribly racist, horribly harmful people among us and they don't care what people think because the term has been so overused, it's lost it sting. It used to be something to be horribly ashamed of (and rightly so). Now it's just....meh.
People love to blame that on the new administration but that isn't the case. It's because of people using the term so inappropriately and so often when it's not true that isn't become no big deal.
Well done, people!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 24, 2017 10:53:37 GMT -5
I'm burned out. If you don't agree or try to defend what others say is racist, you're racist. I haven't gotten to the point of considering it a compliment but I'm close. You know? I hate that. I really do. But I see where you are coming from. When people resort to stuff like that, it's because they know they have no other valid argument and it's just sort of confirmation you are coming from the right place. Very sad but very true.
I don't even deny it anymore. It would be like me constantly having to deny I'm male. It's so dumb, it isn't even worth my time. That's sad, too, because there are horribly racist, horribly harmful people among us and they don't care what people think because the term has been so overused, it's lost it sting. It used to be something to be horribly ashamed of (and rightly so). Now it's just....meh.
People love to blame that on the new administration but that isn't the case. It's because of people using the term so inappropriately and so often when it's not true that isn't become no big deal.
Well done, people!
Yup if being called racist no longer matters then let's whip Out Nazi and give that a try.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 24, 2017 10:57:27 GMT -5
Shooby: Many thanks for your detailed assessment of each case.
Based on what you've said thus far, I'm inferring the following verdicts on the first 13 cases:
1. Not enough information. 2. Not racism. 3. Not racism. 4. Not racism. 5. Not racism.
6. Not racism. 7. Racism. 8. Not racism. 9. Not enough information. 10. Not enough information.
11. Not racism. 12. Not racism. 13. Not racism.
Please let me know if any are incorrect. I'll wait until you've completed the survey before critiquing them.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 24, 2017 11:02:32 GMT -5
It's only racism if you're black. Can you imagine the hue and cry if Robert Lee had been black and was moved? Protests riots and firings would have followed.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 24, 2017 11:17:30 GMT -5
Rather than go through the whole thing here I'll just say Green Eyed Lady and I agree, pretty much, across the board. I'll just list the few exceptions: 4 Not racist on the surface as the flag is a keepsake. 11 Not racist as Arabs are not a race. 13 not enough information. If a crime is seen to be committed by a white man it's not going to benefit anybody to look for black or Asian suspects. 17 Not racist as aboriginal is not a race . 20 Not racist as Mexican is not a race.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Aug 24, 2017 11:33:24 GMT -5
I don't think horribly racist people have ever really cared what other people think about their beliefs (or have been ashamed of them). They are quite proud of their "non-PC" status and always have been. It is unfortunate that people who may not actually BE racist, but who demonstrate racist behaviors and say racist things (as we all probably have a few times over the years), are labeled as racists out of hand. This tends to minimize the chance of having a real discussion. I am a big believer in the semantic difference between "THAT'S racist" and "YOU'RE racist" but the people to whom either phrase is directed tend to hear them as the same.* However, I don't for a minute think that any alleged dilution of the word "racism" has had any effect whatsoever on the KKK, white pride, etc. Like the Westboro Baptist Church, they thrive on public hatred. *A few years ago I moved away from the "pretend you just didn't hear it" approach to actually saying, "Wow, that could be really offensive to some people. What did you mean by that?" and it is AMAZING how many fewer racist comments I hear these days. Maybe everyone I've said that to now secretly hates me and calls me a snowflake behind my back, but I like to think I've gotten at least a couple of them to think about the impact of their words and stop using phrases like n****-rig (fixing something), n****-toes (Brazil nuts), etc. You might be right. I have no idea how they think. I don't think there is anything wrong in your confronting people when they are being offensive.
It's just so tired, you know? If you speak out against illegal immigration, you are a racist. People refuse to take into consideration that it's the influx that is bothersome - and the price of that influx - and it wouldn't matter what race the people were. It wouldn't matter if they were white people from Canada (although I think they feel fine living where they are). Some people won't accept there is an actual valid argument and just yell "racist". So for me? It no longer bothers me - mostly, I'll admit - because it isn't true. Secondly, it's because it's so commonplace it no longer stings.
I can't help but think there are a whole lot more people who feel the same way. In fact, I know there are. We are going to pay a price for our idiocy. It's starting already. While you may be right that they don't care, I don't think anyone can dispute that the vocalization of these beliefs are getting louder and louder. Most people blame it on the current administration and people being emboldened by them. I don't think that's true. I think we've done it to ourselves.
Thanks for your post. I like being made to think.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 24, 2017 11:40:23 GMT -5
GEL: Many thanks for your thoughtful assessment. I've included the critique inline and whited out the questions where I have no comment to reduce clutter. - At a dinner party, Bob claims "Asians are smarter than whites," citing a 2008 Swedish study on general intelligence that includes statistics categorized by race. Not racist. If it's true, it's true.
- Jill, a white woman who was once assaulted by a black man, crosses the street whenever she sees a large black man approaching on her side of the sidewalk. Not racist. She's been traumatized. It doesn't say she crosses when she sees a black woman.
Is it fair to say you believe that race-linked prejudice stemming from a traumatic experience generally doesn't constitute racism?
- Mary declares at a political rally, "Most white cops--nearly all of them--are racist." Not racist. Just uninformed.
Is it fair to say you believe that race-linked prejudice stemming from ignorance generally doesn't constitute racism?
- Joe keeps a Confederate flag--a keepsake from his childhood--in his bedroom window. He refuses to take it down even after several people insist it's a symbol of racism and makes them uncomfortable. Not enough info to know.
- Holly claims she would never marry a black man because she finds them loud and unattractive. Not racist. We are attracted to who we are attracted to. If she said her reason was because black men are inferior - that would be racist.
- Jim asks Lo, a newcomer to his town of obviously Asian descent, "Are you from China?" Not racist - just stupid.
- Peter, a white man, is a firm believer in Affirmative Action and racial quotas. "Black communities need a leg up to compensate for other systemic inequalities," he claims. Not racist.
- Donna argues online, "All lives matter. White privilege is just and excuse made up by black people." Not racist.
- Les, a Korean man, refuses to hire anyone except Koreans to work in his shop. This one is hard - but yes...racist. Try changing it to a white man refuses to hire anyone except white men to work in his shop and it becomes clearer.
Would you change your verdict if Les' hiring policy was motivated by something practical? For example, if Les only spoke Korean and had difficulty understanding anyone other than a native speaker of Korean?
Would you change your verdict if Les' hiring policy was motivated by nationalism, such as a feeling of obligation to employ first-generation Korean immigrants?
- Kim, a deeply religious woman, disapproves of interracial marriages, sincerely believing that God intended the races be kept separate and distinct. Yes. Racist. Separate and distinct is the give away here.
"Separate and distinct" here referring to genetically--not physically--separate and distinct. I'll assert that Kim isn't a segregationist. Would that change your verdict?
- Roy, an ethnic Jew, maintains a site "sonsofishmael.com" documenting atrocities committed by Arabs and defending a thesis that Arabs are a violent and factious people by nature. Racist. He's basing his opinions of the whole on the actions of a few.
If Roy's behaviour stemmed from his parents being killed by an Arab man (a traumatic experience for Roy), would that change your verdict? If not, how do you reconcile your answer with case (2)?
- Maude, a black professor of sociology, pens an op ed asking readers to eschew citing the research of white sociologists, arguing their research is inherently biased and instrumental in the perpetuation of dangerous stereotypes. Not racist. It appears she asking this for one assignment only and it might be pretty educational seeing the differences in research.
If I stipulated that Maude's recommendation wasn't just for one assignment--that she considers all sociological research by white researchers inherently biased--would this change your verdict?
If so, would it be fair to call your verdict on this case "Not Enough Information"?
- Neil, an Asian man, is an outspoken proponent of racial profiling for police work, believing that profiling makes policing smarter and more effective. Can't determine. Depends on what actions are taking as a result.
- John, a man indifferent to race, refuses to stop hanging out with Ellis, his childhood friend and an outspoken white supremacist, simply because of his beliefs on race. Not racist. His friend is - he isn't. I don't believe in this "you are who you associate with". If that were true, I'd be a bleeding heart liberal.
- Gary, a black TV entertainer, frequently pokes fun at whites, mocking their dancing and driving abilities in particular. Not racist on the face. Its for entertainment purposes and it's kinda true.
If Uncle Sal, a black man, and not a comedian, regales his friends/family at a back yard party with jokes about whites' dancing and driving abilities, would you judge this to be racism? If so, what justifies the distinction?
- Kate, a white woman, and her friend Katelyn, a black woman, agree in a discussion that "there's a difference between blacks and (N word)s". Not racist. No different than white people referring to others as "white trash".
- James categorically refuses to hire another aboriginal man after his previous two aboriginal employees suffered problems with alcohol abuse. Is aboriginal a race? If so. Yes. Racist.
'Aboriginal' meets the general definition of a race.
If I stipulated that James' refusal to hire aboriginal employees was due to several stressful and extremely upsetting experiences dealing with his previous two employees, would this change your verdict? If not, how do you reconcile this with case (2)?
If I stipulated that James' refusal to hire aboriginal employees stemmed from his belief that nearly all aboriginal employees would have problems with alcohol abuse, would this change your verdict? If not, how do you reconcile this with case (3)?
- Jeanine, a full-time volunteer for a NGO in the Black Lives Matter movement, argues on her blog that modest taxes should be levied on white Americans to fund a reparations package intended to compensate "people of colour" from past injustices such as slavery. Not racist - just incredibly stupid.
- Ellie, a white New Englander, reflexively calls white debate opponents racist and bigoted when she perceives she's losing an argument. Not racist. She's just not smart enough to come up with actual arguments so she falls back on what she feels is a scene ender. It's not anymore.
- Joseph, a Texan, sincerely believes the influx of Mexican migrants to the US is a threat to the stability and prosperity of the nation. Not racist. If the influx were a bunch of white people from England, Joseph would probably feel the same way. It's not the race - it's the influx.
If I stipulated that Joseph's concern was linked to the economic and education status of the migrants, generally believing Mexicans to be poor and uneducated relative to Americans and thus a liability, would this change your verdict?
If so, would it be fair to call your verdict on this case "Not Enough Information"?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 24, 2017 11:56:11 GMT -5
Rather than go through the whole thing here I'll just say Green Eyed Lady and I agree, pretty much, across the board. I'll just list the few exceptions: 4 Not racist on the surface as the flag is a keepsake. 11 Not racist as Arabs are not a race. 13 not enough information. If a crime is seen to be committed by a white man it's not going to benefit anybody to look for black or Asian suspects. 17 Not racist as aboriginal is not a race . 20 Not racist as Mexican is not a race. Thanks. Some tough questions for you too: (Generally) Is it fair to say you're not comfortable using the term "racism" unless it applies to one of the three major races (Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid)? (Re 13) If I stipulated that profiling was being used on a locale-by-locale basis, would this change your verdict? (For example, in Neil's city, 91% of all burglaries are perpetrated by members of black gangs, hence Neil has no problem with police prioritizing investigation of black suspects when looking into burglaries in his city. Generally speaking, 'racial profiling' is the incorporation of race-based statistics into policework. The statistics are usually regional in scope. One city might have 90% of violent crime committed by white gangs, another city, 90% by black gangs, and the profiles used by police in the two cities would reflect these realities.)
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 24, 2017 12:05:38 GMT -5
Which of the following behaviours constitute racism? - At a dinner party, Bob claims "Asians are smarter than whites," citing a 2008 Swedish study on general intelligence that includes statistics categorized by race. Not racist
- Jill, a white woman who was once assaulted by a black man, crosses the street whenever she sees a large black man approaching on her side of the sidewalk. Not racist
- Mary declares at a political rally, "Most white cops--nearly all of them--are racist." Racist
- Joe keeps a Confederate flag--a keepsake from his childhood--in his bedroom window. He refuses to take it down even after several people insist it's a symbol of racism and makes them uncomfortable. Not racist
- Holly claims she would never marry a black man because she finds them loud and unattractive. Not racist
- Jim asks Lo, a newcomer to his town of obviously Asian descent, "Are you from China?" Not racist
- Peter, a white man, is a firm believer in Affirmative Action and racial quotas. "Black communities need a leg up to compensate for other systemic inequalities," he claims. Not racist
- Donna argues online, "All lives matter. White privilege is just and excuse made up by black people." Not racist
- Les, a Korean man, refuses to hire anyone except Koreans to work in his shop. Not enough info, there could be a reason he wants Koreans in a Korean shop.
- Kim, a deeply religious woman, disapproves of interracial marriages, sincerely believing that God intended the races be kept separate and distinct. Not racist.
- Roy, an ethnic Jew, maintains a site "sonsofishmael.com" documenting atrocities committed by Arabs and defending a thesis that Arabs are a violent and factious people by nature. Not racist
- Maude, a black professor of sociology, pens an op ed asking readers to eschew citing the research of white sociologists, arguing their research is inherently biased and instrumental in the perpetuation of dangerous stereotypes. Not racist
- Neil, an Asian man, is an outspoken proponent of racial profiling for police work, believing that profiling makes policing smarter and more effective. Not racist
- John, a man indifferent to race, refuses to stop hanging out with Ellis, his childhood friend and an outspoken white supremacist, simply because of his beliefs on race. Not racist
- Gary, a black TV entertainer, frequently pokes fun at whites, mocking their dancing and driving abilities in particular. Racist
- Kate, a white woman, and her friend Katelyn, a black woman, agree in a discussion that "there's a difference between blacks and (N word)s".Not racist
- James categorically refuses to hire another aboriginal man after his previous two aboriginal employees suffered problems with alcohol abuse. Not racist
- Jeanine, a full-time volunteer for a NGO in the Black Lives Matter movement, argues on her blog that modest taxes should be levied on white Americans to fund a reparations package intended to compensate "people of colour" from past injustices such as slavery. Not racist
- Ellie, a white New Englander, reflexively calls white debate opponents racist and bigoted when she perceives she's losing an argument. Manipulative and dishonest...Not racist.
- Joseph, a Texan, sincerely believes the influx of Mexican migrants to the US is a threat to the stability and prosperity of the nation. Not racist
Here is my take on it
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 24, 2017 12:06:31 GMT -5
Rather than go through the whole thing here I'll just say Green Eyed Lady and I agree, pretty much, across the board. I'll just list the few exceptions: 4 Not racist on the surface as the flag is a keepsake. 11 Not racist as Arabs are not a race. 13 not enough information. If a crime is seen to be committed by a white man it's not going to benefit anybody to look for black or Asian suspects. 17 Not racist as aboriginal is not a race . 20 Not racist as Mexican is not a race. Thanks. Some tough questions for you too: (Generally) Is it fair to say you're not comfortable using the term "racism" unless it applies to one of the three major races (Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid)? (Re 13) If I stipulated that profiling was being used on a locale-by-locale basis, would this change your verdict? (For example, in Neil's city, 91% of all burglaries are perpetrated by members of black gangs, hence Neil has no problem with police prioritizing investigation of black suspects when looking into burglaries in his city. Generally speaking, 'racial profiling' is the incorporation of race-based statistics into policework. The statistics are usually regional in scope. One city might have 90% of violent crime committed by white gangs, another city, 90% by black gangs, and the profiles used by police in the two cities would reflect these realities.) To your first question: Yes. I think the term "racist" is wrongly applied far too often. That's resulted in the loss of the meaning of the term. I've never seen a person who is truly black, just as I've never seen a person who is truly white, or yellow, or red. People are all some shade of brown - from very dark brown to very light beige. Color, to me, doesn't define race. It's no more than a visual identifier and subject to error; especially, when the definition of race is broadened. Genetics defines race and many of us, like it or not, are of mixed race to some degree. To your second question: The added stipulations don't change my answer. Each crime encountered needs to be treated separately and actions taken based on evidence, IMO. Broad brush painting is one of my pet peeves.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 24, 2017 12:10:08 GMT -5
If you notice someone's race, you are a racist. If you do not notice someone's race, you are a racist. However, there are exceptions to this: If you notice someone's race and you are a liberal, you are not a racist. If you do not notice someone's race and you are a liberal, you are not a racist. If you notice someone's race and you are a conservative, you are a racist. If you do not notice someone's race and you are a conservative, you are a racist. Now, is that clear to everyone? Thanks for your personal explanation. Now to read Adolf Hitler's personal explanation on the benevolence shown to the Jews of Europe by Nazi Germany. Tenn, instead of poking at Shooby, why not provide your assessment of the cases? I'd welcome it. You're one of the most socially left-leaning members on the board and this thread needs more left-leaning respondents. I won't gainsay any of your verdicts (that's not the point of this thread) but, like all the assessments thus far, I will ask some "what if"s, some questions to clarify, and some questions to reconcile what I see as potential contradictions. Your call, but my thanks if you do.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 24, 2017 12:17:56 GMT -5
Thanks. Some tough questions for you too: (Generally) Is it fair to say you're not comfortable using the term "racism" unless it applies to one of the three major races (Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid)? (Re 13) If I stipulated that profiling was being used on a locale-by-locale basis, would this change your verdict? (For example, in Neil's city, 91% of all burglaries are perpetrated by members of black gangs, hence Neil has no problem with police prioritizing investigation of black suspects when looking into burglaries in his city. Generally speaking, 'racial profiling' is the incorporation of race-based statistics into policework. The statistics are usually regional in scope. One city might have 90% of violent crime committed by white gangs, another city, 90% by black gangs, and the profiles used by police in the two cities would reflect these realities.) To your first question: Yes. I think the term "racist" is wrongly applied far too often. That's resulted in the loss of the meaning of the term. I've never seen a person who is truly black, just as I've never seen a person who is truly white, or yellow, or red. People are all some shade of brown - from very dark brown to very light beige. Color, to me, doesn't define race. It's no more than a visual identifier and subject to error; especially, when the definition of race is broadened. Genetics defines race and many of us, like it or not, are of mixed race to some degree. To your second question: The added stipulations don't change my answer. Each crime encountered needs to be treated separately and actions taken based on evidence, IMO. Broad brush painting is one of my pet peeves. Can you elaborate on the conditions where you do consider the term "racism" appropriate? What litmus test do you use? When I say "litmus test", it doesn't have to be a simple one-dimensional test. Include as many "and"s, "or"s, and "but"s as you please. I am looking for a general heuristic, though, on what specific factors you use to distinguish racism from general bigotry and non-racism.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 24, 2017 12:19:28 GMT -5
Spellbound454: Thanks for the reply. I'll critique it later today when I have time.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Aug 24, 2017 12:23:07 GMT -5
GEL: Many thanks for your thoughtful assessment. I've included the critique inline and whited out the questions where I have no comment to reduce clutter. - At a dinner party, Bob claims "Asians are smarter than whites," citing a 2008 Swedish study on general intelligence that includes statistics categorized by race. Not racist. If it's true, it's true.
- Jill, a white woman who was once assaulted by a black man, crosses the street whenever she sees a large black man approaching on her side of the sidewalk. Not racist. She's been traumatized. It doesn't say she crosses when she sees a black woman.
Is it fair to say you believe that race-linked prejudice stemming from a traumatic experience generally doesn't constitute racism?
- Mary declares at a political rally, "Most white cops--nearly all of them--are racist." Not racist. Just uninformed.
Is it fair to say you believe that race-linked prejudice stemming from ignorance generally doesn't constitute racism?
- Joe keeps a Confederate flag--a keepsake from his childhood--in his bedroom window. He refuses to take it down even after several people insist it's a symbol of racism and makes them uncomfortable. Not enough info to know.
- Holly claims she would never marry a black man because she finds them loud and unattractive. Not racist. We are attracted to who we are attracted to. If she said her reason was because black men are inferior - that would be racist.
- Jim asks Lo, a newcomer to his town of obviously Asian descent, "Are you from China?" Not racist - just stupid.
- Peter, a white man, is a firm believer in Affirmative Action and racial quotas. "Black communities need a leg up to compensate for other systemic inequalities," he claims. Not racist.
- Donna argues online, "All lives matter. White privilege is just and excuse made up by black people." Not racist.
- Les, a Korean man, refuses to hire anyone except Koreans to work in his shop. This one is hard - but yes...racist. Try changing it to a white man refuses to hire anyone except white men to work in his shop and it becomes clearer.
Would you change your verdict if Les' hiring policy was motivated by something practical? For example, if Les only spoke Korean and had difficulty understanding anyone other than a native speaker of Korean?
Would you change your verdict if Les' hiring policy was motivated by nationalism, such as a feeling of obligation to employ first-generation Korean immigrants?
- Kim, a deeply religious woman, disapproves of interracial marriages, sincerely believing that God intended the races be kept separate and distinct. Yes. Racist. Separate and distinct is the give away here.
"Separate and distinct" here referring to genetically--not physically--separate and distinct. I'll assert that Kim isn't a segregationist. Would that change your verdict?
- Roy, an ethnic Jew, maintains a site "sonsofishmael.com" documenting atrocities committed by Arabs and defending a thesis that Arabs are a violent and factious people by nature. Racist. He's basing his opinions of the whole on the actions of a few.
If Roy's behaviour stemmed from his parents being killed by an Arab man (a traumatic experience for Roy), would that change your verdict? If not, how do you reconcile your answer with case (2)?
- Maude, a black professor of sociology, pens an op ed asking readers to eschew citing the research of white sociologists, arguing their research is inherently biased and instrumental in the perpetuation of dangerous stereotypes. Not racist. It appears she asking this for one assignment only and it might be pretty educational seeing the differences in research.
If I stipulated that Maude's recommendation wasn't just for one assignment--that she considers all sociological research by white researchers inherently biased--would this change your verdict?
If so, would it be fair to call your verdict on this case "Not Enough Information"?
- Neil, an Asian man, is an outspoken proponent of racial profiling for police work, believing that profiling makes policing smarter and more effective. Can't determine. Depends on what actions are taking as a result.
- John, a man indifferent to race, refuses to stop hanging out with Ellis, his childhood friend and an outspoken white supremacist, simply because of his beliefs on race. Not racist. His friend is - he isn't. I don't believe in this "you are who you associate with". If that were true, I'd be a bleeding heart liberal.
- Gary, a black TV entertainer, frequently pokes fun at whites, mocking their dancing and driving abilities in particular. Not racist on the face. Its for entertainment purposes and it's kinda true.
If Uncle Sal, a black man, and not a comedian, regales his friends/family at a back yard party with jokes about whites' dancing and driving abilities, would you judge this to be racism? If so, what justifies the distinction?
- Kate, a white woman, and her friend Katelyn, a black woman, agree in a discussion that "there's a difference between blacks and (N word)s". Not racist. No different than white people referring to others as "white trash".
- James categorically refuses to hire another aboriginal man after his previous two aboriginal employees suffered problems with alcohol abuse. Is aboriginal a race? If so. Yes. Racist.
'Aboriginal' meets the general definition of a race.
If I stipulated that James' refusal to hire aboriginal employees was due to several stressful and extremely upsetting experiences dealing with his previous two employees, would this change your verdict? If not, how do you reconcile this with case (2)?
If I stipulated that James' refusal to hire aboriginal employees stemmed from his belief that nearly all aboriginal employees would have problems with alcohol abuse, would this change your verdict? If not, how do you reconcile this with case (3)?
- Jeanine, a full-time volunteer for a NGO in the Black Lives Matter movement, argues on her blog that modest taxes should be levied on white Americans to fund a reparations package intended to compensate "people of colour" from past injustices such as slavery. Not racist - just incredibly stupid.
- Ellie, a white New Englander, reflexively calls white debate opponents racist and bigoted when she perceives she's losing an argument. Not racist. She's just not smart enough to come up with actual arguments so she falls back on what she feels is a scene ender. It's not anymore.
- Joseph, a Texan, sincerely believes the influx of Mexican migrants to the US is a threat to the stability and prosperity of the nation. Not racist. If the influx were a bunch of white people from England, Joseph would probably feel the same way. It's not the race - it's the influx.
If I stipulated that Joseph's concern was linked to the economic and education status of the migrants, generally believing Mexicans to be poor and uneducated relative to Americans and thus a liability, would this change your verdict?
If so, would it be fair to call your verdict on this case "Not Enough Information"?
Thanks, Virgil.....more responses to responses to responses:
2. No. I've studied thousands of statements from rape victims. The perpetrator being another race than the victim is a defining characteristic - for all races. It stands out. It's not a racist thing - it's just a fact. Therefore, had the perpetrator been a white male with arm sleeve tattoos, she would most likely cross the street when encountering a white male with arm sleeve tattoos. I hope that makes sense.
3. No. I'm saying that nobody knows all white cops. Get to know them before you make judgments. Don't make uninformed judgments. While I'm sure it's the case some of the time - nothing is the case all of the time. Generalizations come from those not informed enough to have any other opinion.
9. Interesting points. My first knee jerk reaction is that he is here and not in Korea and he will have to understand customers who speak English - unless he doesn't allow them in his shop either. But? I'd have to think on this for a bit.
10. No. That would not change my verdict. I was already thinking genetically and not physically.
11. Possibly. You did not specify in your post that Roy had a personal traumatic experience.
12. Yes. That would change my verdict. As written, tho, my opinion stands.
15. This is a hard one. Thanks to you, I don't know what I think now. Going to have to give this one some more time.
20. No. I'm holding on this one.
Thanks, Virgil.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 24, 2017 12:30:49 GMT -5
To your first question: Yes. I think the term "racist" is wrongly applied far too often. That's resulted in the loss of the meaning of the term. I've never seen a person who is truly black, just as I've never seen a person who is truly white, or yellow, or red. People are all some shade of brown - from very dark brown to very light beige. Color, to me, doesn't define race. It's no more than a visual identifier and subject to error; especially, when the definition of race is broadened. Genetics defines race and many of us, like it or not, are of mixed race to some degree. To your second question: The added stipulations don't change my answer. Each crime encountered needs to be treated separately and actions taken based on evidence, IMO. Broad brush painting is one of my pet peeves. Can you elaborate on the conditions where you do consider the term "racism" appropriate? What litmus test do you use? When I say "litmus test", it doesn't have to be a simple one-dimensional test. Include as many "and"s, "or"s, and "but"s as you please. I am looking for a general heuristic, though, on what specific factors you use to distinguish racism from general bigotry and non-racism. I consider the stipulations you presented in your first question to me, Virgil - the three major races. That's why I answered your question with "Yes".
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 24, 2017 15:18:50 GMT -5
Thanks for your personal explanation. Now to read Adolf Hitler's personal explanation on the benevolence shown to the Jews of Europe by Nazi Germany. Tenn, instead of poking at Shooby, why not provide your assessment of the cases? I'd welcome it. You're one of the most socially left-leaning members on the board and this thread needs more left-leaning respondents. I won't gainsay any of your verdicts (that's not the point of this thread) but, like all the assessments thus far, I will ask some "what if"s, some questions to clarify, and some questions to reconcile what I see as potential contradictions. Your call, but my thanks if you do. Virgil-I don't get into pissing matches with this subject. It's a no win discussion, it changes no one's mind, and its tiresome. Sorry.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 24, 2017 15:44:04 GMT -5
Changed my mind. Here goes.
1. No. Not racist. simply quoting something he read 2. Not racist 3. Not enough information 4. Not racist 5. Not enough information 6. Not racist. Stupid though 7. Not racist 8. Not racist. But needs to listen to the concerns of the black community 9. Not a race. So not racist. Issue of national origin 10. Racist and ignorant 11. Not racist. Jews and Arabs are not a race 12. Not racist 13. Racist 14. Not racist 15. Not racist 16. Need more information 17. Not a racist but an national origin issue 18. Not racist. Her idea will never fly. 19. Not racist but she is grossly ignorant 20. Not racist. National origin issue.
I am done.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Aug 24, 2017 18:15:05 GMT -5
Rather than go through the whole thing here I'll just say Green Eyed Lady and I agree, pretty much, across the board. I'll just list the few exceptions: 4 Not racist on the surface as the flag is a keepsake. ... The display of it is what I think has significance. A flag hung in a window will fade over time. A treasured keepsake would not likely be exposed to this type of damage. Or perhaps the person is ignorant of the long term effect.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 24, 2017 19:48:17 GMT -5
Rather than go through the whole thing here I'll just say Green Eyed Lady and I agree, pretty much, across the board. I'll just list the few exceptions: 4 Not racist on the surface as the flag is a keepsake. ... The display of it is what I think has significance. A flag hung in a window will fade over time. A treasured keepsake would not likely be exposed to this type of damage. Or perhaps the person is ignorant of the long term effect. I get what you're saying but, as you posit, not everyone is aware the sun will fade fabric dyes. That's why I qualified with "on the surface". To really determine any more one would have to have more information about the flag's owner.
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