Otto Warmbier dies at 22

[chiver78]

NBC News link

Warmbier, Student Freed by North Korea, Dies at 22
Associated Press

Otto Warmbier, an American college student who was released by North Korea in a coma last week, died Monday afternoon. He was 22.

The family announced his death in a statement released by UC Health Systems, saying, "It is our sad duty to report that our son, Otto Warmbier, has completed his journey home. Surrounded by his loving family, Otto died today at 2:20pm."

The family thanked the University of Cincinnati Medical Center for treating him but said, "Unfortunately, the awful torturous mistreatment our son received at the hands of the North Koreans ensured that no other outcome was possible beyond the sad one we experienced today."

They said they were choosing to focus on the time they were given with their "warm, engaging, brilliant" son instead of focusing on what they had lost.
Warmbier was sentenced to 15 years in prison with hard labor in North Korea, convicted of subversion after he tearfully confessed he had tried to steal a propaganda banner.

The University of Virginia student was held for more than 17 months and medically evacuated from North Korea last week. Doctors said he returned with severe brain damage, but it wasn't clear what caused it.
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click the link above for the full story. 

[Virgil Showlion]

[mmhmm]

I'd read about this. Such a sad, sad story. The North Koreans apparently claimed he contracted botulism, took two sleeping pills and went into a coma. When he got here the doctors said there was no evidence of him having had botulism. Who knows what happened to the poor man. 

My heart goes out to his family and friends. What a horrible ordeal they've been through.

[Deleted]

Absolutely horrific, I can't imagine what he and his family went through with this.

[Jaguar]

This is just bloody horrible, this is murder imo and over a fucking damn propaganda poster.

Please for the sake of your family and friends, do not go to North Korea, just stay the hell out of that hell hole.

[Jaguar]

Go Well Otto, may peace be with you always.

[milee]

Jun 19, 2017 16:11:08 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

I'm so sorry for his family. Maybe it's time to ban travel to North Korea.

I go back and forth on this idea.  I hate when government takes away individual freedom. 

On the other hand, I'm always shocked that people choose to go to countries like North Korea and Afghanistan.  WTF, people?

[chiver78]

Jun 19, 2017 17:20:14 GMT -5 milee said:

Jun 19, 2017 16:11:08 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

I'm so sorry for his family. Maybe it's time to ban travel to North Korea.

I go back and forth on this idea.  I hate when government takes away individual freedom. 

On the other hand, I'm always shocked that people choose to go to countries like North Korea and Afghanistan.  WTF, people?

exactly. I was having this discussion with a co-worker last week when footage came out of him being carried off the plane. whatever he did or didn't do, 15 years of hard labor does not at all translate into brain death with 2 years. something is fishy here.

[milee]

I always watch these hostage stories with a mix of horror, pity and disbelief.  Like that youngish couple (think one was Canadian?) that was kidnapped five years ago while hiking through the mountains in Afghanistan... WTF were they thinking?!?  There was no good reason for them to be there other than naivete and probably the mistaken belief that it would be "cool" to see an area that most people don't go.  The consequences for their stupidity have been enormously disproportionate, though.

I hate when bad things happen to these somewhat innocent but incredibly, annoyingly stupid people.  But I also don't want us to spend huge amounts of time and money trying to "save" them.  I know I sound cold and heartless about that.  But if people really are so dumb that they think being an American gives them a pass to go anywhere and do anything, maybe we're better off without them.  It's hubris like that which is the basis for the Ugly American syndrome.

And yes, I was one of those heartless people who cringed when the US tried to intervene when that American kid was sentenced to caning in Singapore 20 years ago.  While I don't support caning and think it's a disproportionate punishment for the crime of vandalism, it's exactly in line with the prevailing laws of the area to which everybody is subject (just like kidnapping is sort of the norm for North Korea and Afghanistan).  When people travel to a foreign country, they need to understand they're agreeing to the risks and punishments that are common in that country.

[dee27]

Jun 19, 2017 16:49:53 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

I'm not even sure he took a poster. North Korea may just have wanted another hostage.

There is a post on FB with quotes from Otto's father. Supposedly the poster that was removed was from an earlier incident. In either case, it is sad that he was tortured and ultimately died.

[alabamagal]

Jun 19, 2017 17:46:43 GMT -5 milee said:

I always watch these hostage stories with a mix of horror, pity and disbelief.  Like that youngish couple (think one was Canadian?) that was kidnapped five years ago while hiking through the mountains in Afghanistan... WTF were they thinking?!?  There was no good reason for them to be there other than naivete and probably the mistaken belief that it would be "cool" to see an area that most people don't go.  The consequences for their stupidity have been enormously disproportionate, though.

I hate when bad things happen to these somewhat innocent but incredibly, annoyingly stupid people.  But I also don't want us to spend huge amounts of time and money trying to "save" them.  I know I sound cold and heartless about that.  But if people really are so dumb that they think being an American gives them a pass to go anywhere and do anything, maybe we're better off without them.  It's hubris like that which is the basis for the Ugly American syndrome.

And yes, I was one of those heartless people who cringed when the US tried to intervene when that American kid was sentenced to caning in Singapore 20 years ago.  While I don't support caning and think it's a disproportionate punishment for the crime of vandalism, it's exactly in line with the prevailing laws of the area to which everybody is subject (just like kidnapping is sort of the norm for North Korea and Afghanistan).  When people travel to a foreign country, they need to understand they're agreeing to the risks and punishments that are common in that country.

I agree completely with what you said.  

I have a friend who recently traveled to Cuba for vacation (she is not Cuban).  She posted on her Facebook "I took all these great pictures today, but had to wait until I got to my hotel to post them."  Don't you realize that the government there controls access to the internet to oppress the citizens.

Needless to say, I have no plans to go to North Korea, Cuba, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq (the list is longer, those are just the top of the list)

[Tennesseer]

My condolences to the man's family.

Let this poor man's death be a warning to all Americans who feel the need to travel to North Korea for any reason at all.

[NastyWoman]

Jun 19, 2017 17:46:43 GMT -5 milee said:

...

And yes, I was one of those heartless people who cringed when the US tried to intervene when that American kid was sentenced to caning in Singapore 20 years ago.  While I don't support caning and think it's a disproportionate punishment for the crime of vandalism, it's exactly in line with the prevailing laws of the area to which everybody is subject (just like kidnapping is sort of the norm for North Korea and Afghanistan).  When people travel to a foreign country, they need to understand they're agreeing to the risks and punishments that are common in that country.

I have never liked corporal punishment especially for a non violent crime, there were a number of things wrong with intervention in that situation (DS1 and he shared a few classes): (i) the kid was 18 and legally an adult, (ii) there were several kids involved and the damage they had caused was in the 100's of thousands of dollars (this is due to the insane car prices in Singapore, and (iii) as Milee mentioned this kids and his parents did not believe that Singapore would dare touch a foreign citizen and most of all not an American citizen*, (iv) there is not a scintilla of doubt that had any Singaporean been involved s/he would have received the same punishment for this.

The parents of the other kids (one or two were Australian and one German and there might have been one more) held no such illusions and they whisked their kids out of the country before it was known they were involved. Mom/kids/siblings left overnight, fathers followed as soon as a replacement had been found by their respective companies. I can't imagine this event was any good for the careers of their respective fathers. Neither the American kid nor any of the others will ever be allowed back in. And if one of the kids that got away were to be stupid enough to show up at their airport he would be picked up, brought to court, punished and kicked out.

The only thing I am very ambivalent about is the helping your child evade responsibily. I don't know what I would have done. And of course I also don't know whether there were any consequences for those kids or not...

*This opinion was quite widespread in the American expat community at the time.

[milee]

Jun 19, 2017 18:59:13 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Jun 19, 2017 17:46:43 GMT -5 milee said:

...

And yes, I was one of those heartless people who cringed when the US tried to intervene when that American kid was sentenced to caning in Singapore 20 years ago.  While I don't support caning and think it's a disproportionate punishment for the crime of vandalism, it's exactly in line with the prevailing laws of the area to which everybody is subject (just like kidnapping is sort of the norm for North Korea and Afghanistan).  When people travel to a foreign country, they need to understand they're agreeing to the risks and punishments that are common in that country.

I have never liked corporal punishment especially for a non violent crime, there were a number of things wrong with intervention in that situation (DS1 and he shared a few classes): (i) the kid was 18 and legally an adult, (ii) there were several kids involved and the damage they had caused was in the 100's of thousands of dollars (this is due to the insane car prices in Singapore, and (iii) as Milee mentioned this kids and his parents did not believe that Singapore would dare touch a foreign citizen and most of all not an American citizen*, (iv) there is not a scintilla of doubt that had any Singaporean been involved s/he would have received the same punishment for this.

The parents of the other kids (one or two were Australian and one German and there might have been one more) held no such illusions and they whisked their kids out of the country before it was known they were involved. Mom/kids/siblings left overnight, fathers followed as soon as a replacement had been found by their respective companies. I can't imagine this event was any good for the careers of their respective fathers. Neither the American kid nor any of the others will ever be allowed back in. And if one of the kids that got away were to be stupid enough to show up at their airport he would be picked up, brought to court, punished and kicked out.

The only thing I am very ambivalent about is the helping your child evade responsibily. I don't know what I would have done. And of course I also don't know whether there were any consequences for those kids or not...

*This opinion was quite widespread in the American expat community at the time.

At dinner tonight, our family talked about Warmbier and Americans traveling abroad.  DH brought up the Singapore example and described it to the boys.  Both DH and I let them know that it would be horrible as a parent to know how caning would hurt them, but that we would have let them be caned if they were involved in a case like the Singapore one.  We also emphasized that although we love to travel and I've gone to some dodgy places, Americans aren't exempt from the laws and norms of other countries and that it's up to them to first avoid trouble and then deal with normal, foreseeable consequences if they do get into trouble.

[NastyWoman]

You are absolutely right milee but my focus at the time was more on the "don't even joke about drugs" kind of thing (neither one ever did drugs thank goodness) because the law is followed to the letter and quickly drug crime = death penalty and time between being caught and hanging is less than a year.

[milee]

Jun 19, 2017 19:08:12 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

You are absolutely right milee but my focus at the time was more on the "don't even joke about drugs" kind of thing (neither one ever did drugs thank goodness) because the law is followed to the letter and quickly drug crime = death penalty and time between being caught and hanging is less than a year.

I can't honestly say what I'd do in that case.  Especially if my kid wasn't actually doing drugs or knowingly doing anything wrong.  Have to spend some time thinking about that and still might not be able to have an honest answer about how I might handle the possible death of my son.

For nondeath crimes, though, our house is pretty consistent about the whole personal responsibility and know the laws of the country thing...

[NastyWoman]

I can't honestly say what I'd do in that case. Especially if my kid wasn't actually doing drugs or knowingly doing anything wrong. Have to spend some time thinking about that and still might not be able to have an honest answer about how I might handle the possible death of my son.

For nondeath crimes, though, our house is pretty consistent about the whole personal responsibility and know the laws of the country thing...
 

 I also don't know whether the other kids wold have been caned though since the American was the only one who was legally an adult (another thing very often ignored in discussions) when this happened. They most certainly would have been punished but I am not sure what it would have entailed, since the younger culprits all got away.

The kids who did get to "suffer" for it for about a year though were the other students from the two international HS that these kids attended.  There was a lot of aggression by certain local people aimed at (visually) foreign teens. They were all tainted by these events. 

[swamp]

Jun 19, 2017 17:46:43 GMT -5 milee said:

I always watch these hostage stories with a mix of horror, pity and disbelief.  Like that youngish couple (think one was Canadian?) that was kidnapped five years ago while hiking through the mountains in Afghanistan... WTF were they thinking?!?  There was no good reason for them to be there other than naivete and probably the mistaken belief that it would be "cool" to see an area that most people don't go.  The consequences for their stupidity have been enormously disproportionate, though.

I hate when bad things happen to these somewhat innocent but incredibly, annoyingly stupid people.  But I also don't want us to spend huge amounts of time and money trying to "save" them.  I know I sound cold and heartless about that.  But if people really are so dumb that they think being an American gives them a pass to go anywhere and do anything, maybe we're better off without them.  It's hubris like that which is the basis for the Ugly American syndrome.

And yes, I was one of those heartless people who cringed when the US tried to intervene when that American kid was sentenced to caning in Singapore 20 years ago.  While I don't support caning and think it's a disproportionate punishment for the crime of vandalism, it's exactly in line with the prevailing laws of the area to which everybody is subject (just like kidnapping is sort of the norm for North Korea and Afghanistan).  When people travel to a foreign country, they need to understand they're agreeing to the risks and punishments that are common in that country.

I can't like this enough. 

[Virgil Showlion]

For me, it depends on why they're there. I sympathize more with persons gone abroad for journalistic or humanitarian reasons.

But yes. Generally speaking, caveat viator.

[Tennesseer]

If there is one good thing which comes out of this tragedy is the tour company which books these trips to North Korea, Young Pioneer Tours, is no longer going to accept Americans for these tours there.  Too dangerous for Americans.


Tour group says no more Americans to North Korea after Warmbier death

[zibazinski]

No one should be going there, period.

[Shooby]

  I had originally heard that someone had encouraged him to go steal the sign.  Then, his father said that wasnt' true.  I do think going to a hostile country is a very bad idea.  Even more so for young people who don't really understand how brutal some of these countries are for a minor infraction.  

[justme]

Jun 19, 2017 21:27:41 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

If there is one good thing which comes out of this tragedy is the tour company which books these trips to North Korea, Young Pioneer Tours, is no longer going to accept Americans for these tours there.  Too dangerous for Americans.


Tour group says no more Americans to North Korea after Warmbier death

I didn't even realize there were tour groups to north Korea. Seems like a suicide mission to me...

[Tennesseer]

Jun 19, 2017 21:46:36 GMT -5 justme said:

Jun 19, 2017 21:27:41 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

If there is one good thing which comes out of this tragedy is the tour company which books these trips to North Korea, Young Pioneer Tours, is no longer going to accept Americans for these tours there.  Too dangerous for Americans.


Tour group says no more Americans to North Korea after Warmbier death

I didn't even realize there were tour groups to north Korea. Seems like a suicide mission to me...

Not an out-of-the-way tour I would have taken, even in my younger years.

[Tennesseer]

Young Pioneer Tours

[Artemis Windsong]

Crazy despot ruler.  Enemy of America. Precious, brilliant son needed to go to a different country or stay home.

[MJ2.0]

I'm still wrapping my mind around people voluntarily going to North Korea

[Waffle]

Jun 19, 2017 17:57:04 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

My condolences to the man's family.

Let this poor man's death be a warning to all Americans who feel the need to travel to North Korea for any reason at all.

Call me jaded, but I don't expect it will be a warning.   North Korea has been imprisoning U.S. citizens for phony reasons for years. If that wasn't warning enough, I doubt that this young man's death will dissuade people either.  

[Virgil Showlion]

Jun 20, 2017 12:51:48 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

Kim Jong-Un appears to be worse than his father.  He's been assassinating his relatives and his diplomats in foreign countries. He said he's not bound by the armistice and that South and North Korea are in a state of war.

I hear he gets poisoned in season 4.

[Tiny]

Jun 19, 2017 21:46:36 GMT -5 justme said:

Jun 19, 2017 21:27:41 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

If there is one good thing which comes out of this tragedy is the tour company which books these trips to North Korea, Young Pioneer Tours, is no longer going to accept Americans for these tours there.  Too dangerous for Americans.


Tour group says no more Americans to North Korea after Warmbier death

I didn't even realize there were tour groups to north Korea. Seems like a suicide mission to me...

"suicide mission" only for the people from countries North Korea is still at war with.    I hear it's quite the "las vegas style" hot vacation spot for people from countries not still at war with NK.