Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jun 20, 2017 16:05:24 GMT -5
Well, from the political front - it was strategic for NK to send the kid home than let him die in NK. NK gets a clean slate... they can claim they treated Otto fairly - and that he died in some crappy American hospital.
I read the NK diplomats called an emergency meeting and offered to release Otto. My guess for why they'd suddenly be "hot" to get rid of the kid would be that his condition had gotten worse OR they no longer wanted to keep providing care for "body" that was not going to ever recover.
I doubt Trump's administration had much to do with getting the release to happen.
Any reports on how Otto died? As in did his parents authorize pulling the plug? I haven't read one way or the other - it seems to be assumed he was taken off life support.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 20, 2017 16:16:59 GMT -5
I read that his family has declined to mention how he died, just that he was at home, surrounded by loved ones.
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apple 2
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Post by apple 2 on Jun 20, 2017 16:22:25 GMT -5
I believe there was video of him taking the poster off the wall. Perhaps he wanted a souvenir? Who knows. Such a sad story.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jun 20, 2017 16:50:15 GMT -5
Young pioneer tours has suspended travel there for Americans
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 21, 2017 11:55:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the link. The confession is so ludicrous, O'Keefe could have written it.
Warmbier said in his public confession that he stole the poster because a friend's mother promised him a used car worth $10,000 in exchange for the propaganda souvenir. This mother also supposedly offered to give Warmbier's family, who he claimed were "suffering from very severe financial difficulties," $200,000 if he was caught lifting the poster. The family has denied the claim about their finances. Warmbier also said he stole the poster because he wanted to join a "semi-secret ring society" at the University of Virginia.
I'd be surprised if his intention was anything more than getting a souvenir to show he was a badass.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 22, 2017 8:26:15 GMT -5
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 22, 2017 11:03:14 GMT -5
I believe that North Korea was willing to let him go because of his health. North Korea still holds three Asian Americans. Note that the last two are in the last couple months.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_nationals_detained_in_North_Korea
www.cnn.com/2017/04/23/asia/american-detained-in-north-korea/
North Korea detained a US citizen for unknown reasons as he was planning to fly out of Pyongyang International Airport on Saturday morning.
Kim Sang Duk, also known as Tony Kim, was teaching at Pyongyang University of Science and Technology, a statement from the school said.
The detention comes amid a buildup of tension on the Korean Peninsula, with a North Korean newspaper saying Sunday that Pyongyang was ready to sink a US aircraft carrier conducting drills in the region.
Kim is the third US citizen in North Korean custody. The school said he was detained by authorities at the airport "after several weeks of service, teaching at PUST."
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 22, 2017 11:12:44 GMT -5
The three held in North Korea MUST BE Jewish Asian Americans. That can be the only reason trump has not pressed hard for their release.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jun 22, 2017 12:13:16 GMT -5
Personally, I think an autopsy should have been required since this was an international incident.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 22, 2017 12:41:12 GMT -5
Personally, I think an autopsy should have been required since this was an international incident. We unfortunately would not be able to do much even if we could prove foul play. Apparently we have to go through others even just to negotiate. According to one article Sweden was a go between. He had no fractures according to another article but his symptoms were like someone who had been deprived of oxygen for an extended time.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jun 22, 2017 12:43:21 GMT -5
I read all that and am well aware. However I think an autopsy should have been performed.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 22, 2017 12:51:23 GMT -5
I read all that and am well aware. However I think an autopsy should have been performed. As you probably know, the family chose not to. I think their rights to privacy should out weigh our desire to know.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jun 22, 2017 12:53:38 GMT -5
I read all that and am well aware. However I think an autopsy should have been performed. As you probably know, the family chose not to. I think their rights to privacy should out weigh our desire to know. Desires dont always matter. There are cororer's cases where autopsies are required despite the family's wishes. And being that this was in international incident, I would think this might be important. Just my opinion.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 22, 2017 13:20:54 GMT -5
TBF to the Obama administration people who are held in North Korea are generally released after a few years. They usually have suffered and have some health problems but they come home alive. I think that the administration should have demanded to see Otto Warmbier and confirm his health. Apparently no government representative had seen him since before he went into a coma in March 2016. We as a country have no standing to demand this.
The United States has formal diplomatic relations with most nations. This includes all U.N. member states except for Bhutan, Iran, North Korea and Syria. This is a country run by a despot that has killed his own family members. I hope we as a country did not have to give up anything important to get this kid back.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 22, 2017 13:27:12 GMT -5
The coroner is still investigating this case. While he does not have the results of an autopsy (the family didn't wish one and they have the right to reject), he does have all hospital records, doctor's notes, laboratory findings, etc. The victim was in coma when admitted to hospital and died there. From what could be determined, he'd been in coma for quite some time as his limbs were contracted. Doctors here in the US have reported extensive loss of brain tissue consistent with oxygen deprivation to the brain. To my knowledge, that's all that's known at this time.
An autopsy in this case probably wouldn't help much, to be honest, because it's been so long since the insult that put him in a coma happened over a year ago. A great deal can, hopefully, be learned by reviewing tests and scans done once he was hospitalized here. External examination indicated no evidence of trauma/injury. Since families have various reasons for not wishing their loved ones autopsied, unless the reason for death is suspect this decision is left to the family. In this case, it's not suspect considering the profound loss of brain tissue and an autopsy wouldn't be of much help to determine why that damage occurred. Besides, even if we knew are we going to go over to NK and drag the perpetrator out of there so we can try him? That's not going to happen. Why, then, would we force the family to go against their own wishes?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 22, 2017 13:34:46 GMT -5
It's good to know there might still be some answers although I agree with the idea that they might not even be relevant. I doubt he would have died had he not been in a North Korean prison camp. While results of an autopsy might be relevant, they probably wouldn't give much more information than is already available because of the length of time between the original insult and death. With the massive loss of brain tissue, the cause of death isn't difficult to ascertain. While I, too, doubt he would have died if he hadn't been imprisoned in NK, that won't tell us what happened to cause what appears to have been oxygen deprivation to the brain.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 23, 2017 13:26:46 GMT -5
I guess North Korea wanted to make an official statement when saying nothing was wiser. Unless they wanted their threats on record?
www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/north-korea-says-its-biggest-victim-in-us-students-death/ar-BBD3PhC?li=BBnb7Kz
The spokesman said "groundless" speculation of torture and beatings could be refuted by American doctors who came to North Korea at the time of Warmbier's repatriation and "recognized that his health indicators like pulse, temperature, respiration and the examination result of the heart and lung were all normal." The report did not mention Warmbier's neurological status.
"The fact that Warmbier died suddenly in less than a week just after his return to the U.S. in his normal state of health indicators is a mystery to us as well," the spokesman said.
"To make it clear, we are the biggest victim of this incident and there would be no more foolish judgment than to think we do not know how to calculate gains and losses," he said.
"The smear campaign against (North Korea) staged in the U.S. compels us to make firm determination that humanitarianism and benevolence for the enemy are a taboo and we should further sharpen the blade of law," the spokesman added.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 23, 2017 14:50:47 GMT -5
How do they say these things with a straight face?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 23, 2017 15:34:02 GMT -5
As you probably know, the family chose not to. I think their rights to privacy should out weigh our desire to know. I disagree. this is an issue of national security National Security? If an autopsy revealed that Warmbier was subjected to extreme torture causing the coma and death, the impact on our nation's security would be ... If an autopsy revealed that Warmbier had a genetic condition that caused the coma and death, the impact on our nation's security would be ... I am just not seeing this as a national security issue unless Warmbier was actually a spy with information he could have revealed when tortured.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 23, 2017 16:59:53 GMT -5
National Security? If an autopsy revealed that Warmbier was subjected to extreme torture causing the coma and death, the impact on our nation's security would be ... If an autopsy revealed that Warmbier had a genetic condition that caused the coma and death, the impact on our nation's security would be ... I am just not seeing this as a national security issue unless Warmbier was actually a spy with information he could have revealed when tortured. it gives our diplomats more ammo to use in negotiating on issues around North Korea
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jun 23, 2017 19:22:36 GMT -5
National Security? If an autopsy revealed that Warmbier was subjected to extreme torture causing the coma and death, the impact on our nation's security would be ... If an autopsy revealed that Warmbier had a genetic condition that caused the coma and death, the impact on our nation's security would be ... I am just not seeing this as a national security issue unless Warmbier was actually a spy with information he could have revealed when tortured. it gives our diplomats more ammo to use in negotiating on issues around North Korea How? In NK eyes this man is a convicted fellon, so not worth anything as ammo to be used against them
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 26, 2017 10:34:51 GMT -5
NK, like most of the world, doesn't give a rats ass what the US thinks.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 26, 2017 10:44:34 GMT -5
NK, like most of the world, doesn't give a rats ass what the US thinks. Actually, they've been described as completely obsessed with what the US thinks. They see the US as a world superpower, aside from them (and perhaps China and Russia). They bask in any recognition/acknowledgment they get from the US, presumably because it validates their delusion of being a world superpower. The Japanese invasion, then communism, then half a century of near-total isolation have really done a number on their national psyche.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 26, 2017 11:03:43 GMT -5
How? In NK eyes this man is a convicted fellon, so not worth anything as ammo to be used against them not with them directly, but it's yet another piece of evidence if we were to seek sanctions/etc We currently don't trade with them at all, have no diplomatic relations with them, and they hold 3 of our citizens. www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5790.html
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 26, 2017 13:09:49 GMT -5
... When I negotiate, i want as many arrows as possible. I like a few sharp ones. Otherwise, to my ear, it becomes:
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 26, 2017 13:43:28 GMT -5
are you being pointy for some reason? Is it so hard to imagine that having more issues to shove in their face, use with the UN, use with the Chinese is better than having fewer issues you can raise? When I negotiate, i want as many arrows as possible. Because I think you are not the only one out there who would be OK with to forcing this family to cut up their son for a nebulous hope that it might mean something someday. And I find it scary that some people put their emotional needs for meaning for this death above the rights of the family.
Why is it hard to see that the answer is low value given our current political situation with NK? Why is it so easy to ignore the distress of the family who may have had an open casket? If you are willing to cause even more pain to a grieving American family, shouldn't it at least have a high probability of payoff instead ridiculously unlikely?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 26, 2017 14:09:31 GMT -5
... I have no horse in this race and odn't know whether the government would benefit from this evidence. that's Tillerson's department. Since they didn't intervene, I see that as Tillerson having made the call. We done?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 26, 2017 18:05:16 GMT -5
I had originally heard that someone had encouraged him to go steal the sign. Then, his father said that wasnt' true. I do think going to a hostile country is a very bad idea. Even more so for young people who don't really understand how brutal some of these countries are for a minor infraction. I wouldn't consider his father, who wasn't there to really know what happened. How did he get this information? His son told him? Others in the group said so? The tour operator made the statement? None are disinterested parties.
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